Commandments should not be followed ...

[mikeledes]

Thank you! Those who want to be “justified by law” were never saved, never “justified as a gift through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). Fallen from grace means they rejected the gospel of divine grace through Christ Jesus that was delivered to them by Paul and instead embraced LAW, thereby severing themselves from Christ.

No, thank you. I’ve already addressed this argument in a previous post, but I guess I need to repeat it. The people in question were not those who had never been saved, but Christians who were saved and had received the Holy Spirit. Paul makes it quite clear who he’s talking to.

Let’s look at Galatians 5:1-4

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those who sought to be justified by the law were those who desired to revert to the Mosaic Law/ Covenant, as expressed by their desire to be circumcised. . Paul is talking about Christians who started out with genuine faith:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **

Galatians 3:3

3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Do the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit?

Galatians 4:9-11

9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Have the “unsaved” come to know God - or be known by God - and freed from bondage, a bondage they want to turn back to?

Paul is not talking about being severed from the path to Christ. He clearly says they have been severed from Christ. Why? Because as the above passages demonstrated, many Christian Galatians, having begun by the Spirit, deserted Him who called them by grace and were reverting to the Old Covenant - succumbing to the teaching of the Judaizers - and were falling into enslavement again, as in second time. This has resulted in being severed from Christ and a fall from grace.

God bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

Not according to Paul.Rom 7:9 "I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment (the 10th), which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become {a cause} {of} death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."Doesn’t sound like the Decalogue “protected” Paul from evil at all. It didn’t have that power. Nor did Paul teach such a concept about the Decalogue. But rather:Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added (alongside the Abrahamic covenant of promise) because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, UNTIL the seed would come to whom the promise had been made (“the seed” meaning Christ).So Paul teaches that the Law, specifically the Decalogue, was only temporary. Remember, Paul was writing to local assemblies in the region of Galatia, some of which rejected his gospel of grace and opted instead for a “different gospel,” one of law, which was contrary to the gospel of grace previously preached to them (Gal. 1:6-9).

Paul does not teach that the Decalogue was “a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him from evil,” but as it clearly exposed the sinfulness of those under it (the Jews), through many transgressions of it, it in turn became their tutor to lead them to CHRIST in order to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH (Gal. 3:24). Justification, then, being based on an altogether different principle than law - that being FAITH and GRACE.

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect.

That may be your tradition but it’s not Biblical. The Law is perfect (Ps. 19:7). Through its perfection it exposes man’s utter sinfulness, man’s glaring imperfection, through sin and transgressions.

Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done,

Actually, it became a tutor to those under it (Jews), and its overall job was to lead them to Christ to be justified by FAITH. Something the “tutor” itself had no power to do but was to lead them to the One who did when He arrived. After the death of Christ its “job” was finished.

That’s why those who want to be justified by law have “fallen from grace,” they’re “severed from Christ.” They want to be justified by that which could only condemn, and whose purpose was actually to lead those who were under it to the only One who had the power to save and justify them through FAITH alone.

1964 The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel.

Only in that it was to lead them to Christ to be justified BY FAITH (Gal. 3:24).

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount.

Not true. Christ did not begin his Mediatorship of the New Covenant (not a new “Law”) until AFTER His death. He became a Mediator of a new and better covenant (through death), based on better promises. Someone far greater than Moses had come, and with greater power.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law.

The problem is that there is no “law of the gospel.” The covenant of Law was made with the Jews at Mt. Sinai. And the greatest Jew of all time, born under that Law, anticipated by that Law, fulfilled that Law, perfectly. None other could. He then, through His sacrificial death (God’s Lamb) for the sin of the whole world, became the Mediator of a NEW covenant, based on promise, not law (see Rom. 4:14,16; Gal. 3:14,22).

1857 "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments,

IOW, transgressing one of the big ten is a “mortal sin” for Catholics. So what Christ accomplished, for Catholics, Moses can destroy. Tef, have you ever worked on Saturday? You know what I’m going to say next. But the good news is that Someone greater than Moses has come, and He is a Mediator (through death) of a better covenant. Whereas those letters engraved on stone became a ministry of death and condemnation to those under it (2 Cor. 3:6-11), the resurrected Christ became a “a life giving spirit” to all those “in Him” (1 Cor. 15:45). The contrast between law and grace is vast, indeed. Like east and west they cannot meet.

 

[Teflon93]

I had never noticed this before in Cat. It does seem odd as it is written. We can order our intentions, we can structure our lives, but can we ‘merit for ourselves’ what this says ?

Some wise Catholic please explain this.

It is not odd at all—we grown in grace as we refrain from sin, avail ourselves of the sacraments, and through the good works we complete receive sanctifying grace.

Consider the lives of the saints and you will see that this is so. St Paul had a love for God and a certain amount of righteousness prior to his conversion; he was not an evil or wicked man, but rather someone unaware that he lacked charity and love. Christ revealed this to him, and he grew steadily ever more Christian. Bear in mind he had to spend several years in the desert post-conversion to effect the changes and grow in grace to become the apostle to the Gentiles.

Likewise, we see St Peter grow from a good man to a great saint, not just at his initial conversion, but from that point forward, until he became the Rock of Christ’s Church and was gloriously martyred.

We see it in the life of Blessed Mother Theresa, and in every saint in between.

As we turn away from sin and toward God, our consciences and hearts become ever more finely tuned. We are not made saints in an instant, but over a lifetime, and in the end it is God who perfects us.

 

[moondweller]

From the CCC:2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.(Notice the distinction between initial and subsequent grace.)

IMO, to merit grace is an oxymoron (cf Rom 11:6).

It is indeed! And by “slight of hand” changes grace into works.

 

[Teflon93]

It states nothing there about “mortal sin” connected to either of its descriptions of what it calls the “old law” and the “new law” (although Scripture speaks only of the first Covenant vs. the new Covenant).

Has Moondweller admitted he’s been corrected yet?

No?

Isn’t it odd how the very thing the Law was lacking—the very thing that Christ added to perfect the faith and open salvation to us all—is the stumbling block Moondweller keeps tripping over, time and again?

Love. The commandment of Christ that we love one another.

John 13:

“31”: Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

“32”: If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

“33”: Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

**“34”: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. **

“35”: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This is what the Catechism is referring to when it says that the Law was imperfect. It lacked love.

Christ brought love to the New Testament, and commanded that we bring love to each other, as brothers and sisters.

Moondweller says this is not required for salvation, but he has been contradicted previously on this point. The Scripture above refutes the notion utterly, presuming one believes that we are to obey Christ.

1 John 3:

11": **For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. **

“12”: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

“13”: Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

“14”: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

“15”: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

“16”: Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

“17”: **But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? **

“18”: My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1 Peter 1:

“22”: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

“23”: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Thessalonians 4:

“1”: Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

“2”:** For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. **

“3”: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

“4”: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

“5”: Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

“6”: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

“7”: For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

“8”: He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

“9”:** But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another**.

Romans 13:

8": Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

“9”: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

“10”: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The linkage between the Commandments given Moses by God and the Commandment given the Apostles by Christ and us by Scripture could not be more clear—they are the same. “Love one another”. How could they be different? God and Christ are one.

To do otherwise is to disobey God. To disobey God is to sin. And to abide in sin is to be cast into the outer darkness, as Matthew 25, repeatedly invoked here but never addressed by the non-Catholic, clearly states.

If we do not love our brother, how can we be saved?

 

[moondweller]

If we do not love our brother, how can we be saved?

You could try by faith and God’s love toward us through the Person and sacrificial work of the incarnate Son. Too easy for you?

 

[guanophore]

Well, Pax argues that Abraham was justified THREE times.  So are you saying Abraham  twice fell from his justified estate?  Based on your agreement above, that must be your conclusion.

No, actually I was not. This goes along with the Apostolic Teaching that our “righteousness” before God can grow, a Teaching that the Reformers reject, believing apparently that all righteousness is imputed, and not infused.

James, however, is not saying that works completed that which was lacking in Abraham’s justification.

I am not sure I can agree with you on this. It would depend, I think, on how you interpret the idea that we can make up in our bodies what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

For the sake of discussion, if James does not mean that justification is incomplete without works, then what do you think he means?

The idea there is that his faith (belief) in the Lord grew and matured, demonstrated by his willingness to offer up Isaac. Having complete faith in God’s covenant promise to him, Abraham believed he would receive Isaac back by resurrection (Heb. 11:17-19).

If you believe that faith can “grow and mature” then why not righteousness?

Using Abraham as his example, James argues for the practical side of faith. He is not, however, stating a conditional salvation based on works.

It is very Catholic of you to say that!

What is it exactly you want me to respond to?

It’s like Teflon quoting massive bodies of Scripture and asking for a response.

I agree. There are massive bodies of scripture that demonstrate that faith is not alone, and that works are directly connected to saving faith.

The same is true of the Catechism. What I would like you to do is take all these passages (in this case the catechism) and explain to us why they do not mean what we understand them to mean.

You keep saying that the Catholic Church teaches “works based salvation”. Teflon quoted the relevant passages from the official Church teaching. What I am wondering is, how can you read those, and still persist in your conviction that the Church teaches otherwise?

 

[Teflon93]

You could try by faith and God’s love toward us through the Person and sacrificial work of the incarnate Son. Too easy for you?

Too unScriptural for me.

My faith involves following God’s commandments, including the Ten Commandments, including Christ’s greatest commandment.

As we have seen above, and throughout Scripture, God equates faith with obedience, not mere assent.

And even had Christ not specifically commanded us to love one another, God’s love for us would be sufficient cause for us to love one another, for to be of God is to love what God loves, and to despise what God despises.

As Christ said in Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I doubt he would have accepted “Because we’re waiting for Saul to convert and interpret your doctrine for us” as a reply.

 

[BRB]

.Not true. Christ did not begin his Mediatorship of the New Covenant (not a new “Law”) until AFTER His death. He became a Mediator of a new and better covenant (through death), based on better promises. Someone far greater than Moses had come, and with greater power.The problem is that there is no “law of the gospel.” The covenant of Law was made with the Jews at Mt. Sinai. And the greatest Jew of all time, born under that Law, anticipated by that Law, fulfilled that Law, perfectly. None other could. He then, through His sacrificial death (God’s Lamb) for the sin of the whole world, became the Mediator of a NEW covenant, based on promise, not law (see Rom. 4:14,16; Gal. 3:14,22)…

Christ taught Beatitudes as the New Covenant rules that trumped OT Mosaic Laws. They didn’t negated the 10 Commandments … but, they became the new ideal for Christian ethical standards.

Which is harder to keep … Beatitudes or Moses’ laws ? Addition of Beatitudes forced the Jews to face their laws vis-a-vis Christ’s new standard. Suddenly they had to answer the imperative of – who was greater, Moses or Christ. Those who may of thought they could keep the Big 10 … surely realized the Beatitudes would be an impossibility for them.

Paul teaches the Beatitudes as God’s new standard. Paul was first and greatest of Church’s apologists. Love trumps law. Faith trumps works. Christ demands discipleship of all he calls.

 

[mikeledes]

I keep seeing a number of misconceptions of Catholic soteriology. So let me go over some of the things the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. I divided it into two posts due to lack of space.

1) Man, in his natural state, is devoid of the grace and Spirit of God as a result of the fall of man ( original sin).

2) In this state, man is in bondage to sin, incapable of coming to faith or love God without divine intervention. Nor is he able to liberate himself from this state or obtain pardon for his sins on the basis of his own efforts or merits (i.e. observing the Mosaic Law or the Decalogue). The Mosaic Law only served to point to our own sinfulness and need for redemption. Hence the need for the Cross of Christ:

Romans 8:3

**3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, **

3) Through God’s grace, a person freely comes to faith. Faith is a gift from God.

4) The Cross of Christ not only won pardon for our sins, it also delivered us from our bondage to sin and enabled us to serve God:

Romans 6:13-14

**13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. **

5) When Catholic refer to good works, they refer to works rooted in faith, for without faith no one can please God (Hebrews 11:6). Moreover, the good works in question are done by those who have already received pardon for their sins and are a new creation, ceated to do good works. These good works are ultimately the fruit of grace and our incoporation into Christ:

John 15:5

5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

So we have nothing to boast about because everything we have - faith and works - come from God.

B]6 When Catholics refer to the initial grace of justification, they are refering to that moment when one is transformed from an ungodly person to one who is righteous before God. It does not mean that that initial reception of this gift is insufficient for salvation and must be completed by our works. If a person were to die immiediately after being justified, they would go to heaven.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

Continuation…

7) However, God has also given Christians the responsibility to conform their lives to the gift of justification and has empowered them to do so (Ezekiel 36:26, Romans 6:4-22, 1 Corinthians 10:13, etc.).

8) With this reponsibility also comes accountability. In other words, it’s an obligation not an option:

Romans 8:12-13

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-8

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Romans 2:6-8

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. **

1 Peter 1:15-17

15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Hebrews 12:14

14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

James 2:12

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Also read Matthew 25:14-30 (Parable of the talents).

9) The Catholic understanding of “merit” is based on the *freely given promises of a sovereign God, as opposed to the “works” system criticized by Paul in which man does a work and God is obligated to pay back. No creature can obligate God, but God obligates Himself through His promises

Proverbs

17One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD,
And He will repay him for his good deed.

So the Catholic understanding of merit is rooted in grace, for it depends upon the loving and gracious mercy of God and thus our merits are also God’s gift to us. That’s why St. Augustine said, “In crowning their merits, you are crowning your own gifts” For apart from Christ, we can do nothing.

10) However, only those who persevere to the end will enter eternal glory:

Matthew 24:13

13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

2 Timothy 2:12

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

Romans 2:7

**7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Galatians 6:9

Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Revelation 2:26

26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

11) However, perseverance to the end is a gift of God, the gift of final perseverance, which cannot be merited. Apart from this gift, there is no merit and no reward. Moreover, this gift is not given on the basis of works. In other words, He does not give John Smith the gift of final perseverance because he worked harder than John Doe. Distribution of this gift depends upon His mercy. Hence, complete salvation - from the first to the last grace - is gratuitous.*

 

[ChrisWRIT]

I had never noticed this before in Cat. It does seem odd as it is written. We can order our intentions, we can structure our lives, but can we ‘merit for ourselves’ what this says ?

Some wise Catholic please explain this.

The objection to the teaching that “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit…” grace is based on confusing the term “merit” with the term “earning”.

Merit is simply worthiness, & worthiness is not the same as obligation.

One can “merit”, or “be worthy” of grace, but that does not mean that God is obligated to reward that person with anything.

Nor does worthiness of receiving a gift mean we have earned it.

Chris

 

[mikeledes]

Moondweller, what do you mean by “rule of life before God?”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Odell]

**Moondweller **or any Protestant for that matter

since moondweller is haveing difficulty maybe some of his friends can help him out. So now i will post my questions to all. If this dont work I probly will have to start another thred titled questions Protestants refuse to answer.

here they are again

Anyone who does not love does not **know **God, because God is love” (Jn 4:7-8). In 1 John 3:14, he teaches that “Whoever does not love abides in death.”

A Catholic would say “if you love you know God if you dont love you dont know God. If you dont love you abide in death”

Im guessing you dont agree with this.

So do you agree with this passage ?

John further speaks against loving the world, warning that if one is to do this “the love of the Father is not in him” (2:15)

The big pickle/ silver bullet

If you are going to apply your rule of life without Love than your no different than the demans who believe and tremble?

YES OR NO?

If you dont LOVE you dont know God. Can you possibly go to heaven if dont know God?

YES OR NO

If you are going to aply your rule of life without the love of the Father, withhout love, without knowing God you abide in death moondweller

answer the question

You want to know what Paul had to say about Love?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:2, where he writes, “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” This, beyond all doubt, proves that man cannot be saved by faith without love.

Christ came to fullfil the Law not to abolish it.

YES OR NO did Christ come to fullfill or abolish the Law?

some more on Paul

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

:coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread:

 

[Teflon93]

The objection to the teaching that “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit…” grace is based on confusing the term “merit” with the term “earning”.

Merit is simply worthiness, & worthiness is not the same as obligation.

One can “merit”, or “be worthy” of grace, but that does not mean that God is obligated to reward that person with anything.

Nor does worthiness of receiving a gift mean we have earned it.

Chris

The servant may merit a reward provided by the kindness of the master. The child may merit an allowance for completing their chores, although the parent is not legally obligated to provide same.

“Well done, thou good and faithful servant” requires service and implies merit from service, if only through the mercy and love of God.

 

[guanophore]

Well, Pax argues that Abraham was justified THREE times. So are you saying Abraham twice fell from his justified estate? Based on your agreement above, that must be your conclusion.

It is certainly possible that Abraham fell from grace. Personally, it seems to me that he did when he gave into Sarah, and took her maiden to bear a child.

However, what I was focusing on is the fact that good works are salvific, and increase a person’s righteousness. Unto those who have, more is given. Reformers are in agreement with Catholic teaching on the concept of declared righteousness. Where the concept of salvation begins to differ is imputed righteousness vs infused, and that the Apostles taught that we are to take on the character of God, being made more daily into His image and likeness. Those recipients of Apostolic teaching also refer to this as “theosis” - becoming partakers of His divine nature. For that reason, we believe that the we “become the righteousness of God in Christ”, not just “declared” righteous, but in actuality, purified from our sin nature.

We cannot fufill this hope of becoming righteous as Christ was without grace, through faith:

Gal 5:4-5
4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness."

1 John 3:1-3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."

Do any of us believe that we can actually purify ourselves, as He is pure? Yet, this is one of the passages where we see the necessity of cooperating with grace. It is incubent upon us to will purity, choose purity, and at with purity, so that we will, in fact, be pure as He is. Not just a snow covered dung heap, but as the image and likeness of God that He created humanity to be.

If salvation happens one in time, for all time, how can we “grow into” it?

1 Peter 2:1-3
2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure, spiritual milk, so that by it **you may grow into salvation **— 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good."

This is another passage that reinforces our notion of “initial” justification. It is referred to as having “tasted” that the Lord is good. Is the beginning of the walk in which we grow in faith, and righteousness.

Righteousness can grown in the believer just as faith, hope, and love grow:

Phil 1:9-11
" And this is my prayer, that your love may overflow more and more with knowledge and full insight 10 to help you to determine what is best, so that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless, 11 having produced the harvest of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ for the glory and praise of God."

This passage would seem to indicate that when lover overflows (doing right), and more insight and knowlege occurs, then judgement (discernment) improves, so that the believer can know “what is best”. It is making righteous (just) decisions day to day that leads us to be more pure and blameless. This lifestyle produces the “harvest of righteousness”. Another image the righteousness can grow.

 

[moondweller]

“34”: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

In context, Tef., who are “ye?” To whom was He giving that “new” commandment.

This is what the Catechism is referring to when it says that the Law was imperfect. It lacked love.

It did?Mark 12:29 "Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the lord your God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these."It certainly didn’t lack love, did it?

Since love was certainly required in the Law, Tef., how is Christ’s commandment to love one another then a “new” commandment?

Moondweller says this is not required for salvation,

That’s true. According to the Scriptures FAITH is required. Of course, in compliance with Christ’s “new” commandment, the Apostles do exhort the saved to love one another. Paul even urged the church at Thessalonica to excel in that love of the brethren still more (1 Thess. 4:9-10).

But salvation itself was never dependent on our love, but God’s toward us:1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins."John goes on to say1 John 4:19 "We love, because He first loved us."In respect to salvation, Paul sums it up:Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If we do not love our brother, how can we be saved?

The question is, are you saved by loving your brother?

 

[BRB]

The servant may merit a reward provided by the kindness of the master. The child may merit an allowance for completing their chores, although the parent is not legally obligated to provide same.

“Well done, thou good and faithful servant” requires service and implies merit from service, if only through the mercy and love of God.

Sounds like a reasonable clarification.

But, I now see how a Protestant reading this could easily think Catholics are being encouraged to ‘earn’ these things for themselves [and others] by ‘works’.

 

[moondweller]

The servant may merit a reward provided by the kindness of the master.

That would be a gift according to his kindness. Not a “meritorious reward.”

The child may merit an allowance for completing their chores, although the parent is not legally obligated to provide same.

That would be a “wage,” not an allowance. An “allowance” is simply given, not worked for.

“Well done, thou good and faithful servant” requires service and implies merit from service, if only through the mercy and love of God.

But to whom does He say it to? Paul was his servant, in fact, a bond-servant. But a servant who testified being saved by grace through faith.

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by sandusky

From the CCC:
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
(Notice the distinction between initial and subsequent grace.)

IMO, to merit grace is an oxymoron (cf Rom 11:6).

I had never noticed this before in Cat. It does seem odd as it is written. We can order our intentions, we can structure our lives, but can we ‘merit for ourselves’ what this says ?

Some wise Catholic please explain this.

First off grace can be resisted. We can also couperate with Gods grace (2 Cor6:1) “working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain”

so not only does man work with God but Man can acept this grace in vain hence not do the work the grace was intended for you to do.

I wonder what happens when this happens:shrug:

Waht did Abraham do with grace? he fought a battle for the lord

all of Abrahams decendents where blessed because Abraham responded to Gods grace.

this is why I bolded that part by sandusky because of Abraham his decendents received grace. How else where they blessed?

I stole this from Catholic Dude

**The key is to think about this in terms of ADOPTION. **

Due to the Fall we lost our adoption as sons because we are born lacking sanctifying grace in our souls. When you are not an adopted child of God your works arent done in a relationship with God to further His Kingdom. This doesnt mean your good works are “evil” or anything like that. Once you receive sanctifying grace (Rom 5:5) in your soul you become an Adopted Son by definition and as a son (and heir) your actions contribute towards your maturing into an adult (as you grow through good works your capacity to love grows) and furthering the Kingdom.
Romans 8: 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 6: 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

THIS is the essence of what Catholics mean by **“meritorious works” done “in a state of grace”. **It means with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are able to do what is pleasing to God and God gladly rewards our obedience. THESE are the good works we can and MUST (not guaranteed) do in order to be found worthy to enter Heaven.

Traditionally Protestants have mistakenly taken a narrow view of salvation/justification to be a legal exchange (with adoption being accepted, but taking a backseat), when the key concept which is above all that Paul is driving home is receiving Adoption through the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Protestants dont really even believe in the concept of sanctifying grace (for example they dont believe Adam lost it because they dont believe it exists), and because of that they failed to grasp the essence of what Paul was getting at.