M
moondweller
Guest
“…for you are not under law but under grace”
- Status
T
Teflon93
Guest
Hebrews 11:
1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2: For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3: Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7: By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
**8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11: Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. **
12: Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14: For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15: And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17: By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18: Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20: By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21: By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22: By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23: By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
24: By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
25: Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26: Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27: By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28: Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29: By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30: By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31: By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32: And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34: Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35: Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38: (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Notice the relationship between faith and obedience.
1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2: For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3: Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7: By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
**8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11: Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. **
12: Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14: For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15: And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17: By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18: Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20: By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21: By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22: By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23: By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
24: By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
25: Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26: Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27: By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28: Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29: By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30: By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31: By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32: And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34: Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35: Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38: (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Notice the relationship between faith and obedience.
S
sandusky
Guest
He wasn’t properly catechized; right?
I don’t need to explain anything; your words illustrate Trent perfectly: salvation is gained on the basis of meriting merit, or meriting grace; therefore, my opinion will always be that yours is a system of works, and that’s further illustrated by the fact that one can lose justification based upon his bad performance—works.
Why what guanophore?
M
mikeledes
Guest
Any reward is a gift according to God’s kindness, for He is not obligated to give a reward.
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Salvation is simply something given—what great appreciation you lack.
Teflon93 said:
Of course they’re not; neither is ***cruel kindness; *** rather, they’re in perfect harmony.
M
mikeledes
Guest
T
Teflon93
Guest
Indeed, how would one propose to force God to do anything?
And yet God keeps His promises. We see time and again in Scripture how God fulfills his end of the bargain even when we do not uphold ours. As the people of Sodom and Gomorrah found out, however, His mercy is bounded by His justice.
Remember this chilling passage from Numbers 11 and see how God kept the promises made here in John 6 although some still hungered after mere worldly flesh to their demise:
1: And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
2: And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
3: And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burnt among them.
4: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
5: We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:
6: But our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.
7: And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.
8: And the people went about, and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.
9: And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.
10: Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
11: And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
12: Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
13: Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.
14: I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.
15: And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness.
16: And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
17: And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
18: And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.
19: Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days;
20: But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?
21: And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month.
22: Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them?
23: And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD’s hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
24: And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25: And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26: But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27: And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28: And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29: And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’s people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
30: And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.
31: And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day’s journey on this side, and as it were a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
32: And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
33: And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
34: And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.
35: And the people journeyed from Kibroth-hattaavah unto Hazeroth; and abode at Hazeroth.
Why, you’d almost think the Lord found gluttony to be a mortal sin!
G
guanophore
Guest
LOL
I bet Peter, James, John and all the other Apostles, deacons, and all the other disciples were shocked to learn that they were teaching a “works based gospel” for the first 20 years “this side of the cross” until Paul got around to “organizing and presenting grace systematically”.
T
Teflon93
Guest
I’m sure they found St Paul far easier to understand than the Risen Christ’s 40 days with them, much less his prior ministry.LOL
I bet Peter, James, John and all the other Apostles, deacons, and all the other disciples were shocked to learn that they were teaching a “works based gospel” for the first 20 years “this side of the cross” until Paul got around to “organizing and presenting grace systematically”.
Was St Paul present in Christ’s classroom with the other apostles?
M
moondweller
Guest
Thank you!
If you tell your child that you will pay them so much a week IF they do certain chores, and they agree, that’s a verbal contract, and that dear fellow is a WAGE. An allowance is simply given. He is allowed so much money per period, period.
Then what is withheld is the WAGE.Rom 4:4-5 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due (get the principle?). But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
If anyone is Pharisaic it wouldn’t be me.
You’re rationalizing and even perverting the definition of “gift.”
When it comes to salvation they are. None of us are deserving, that’s why its by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And that’s why law and grace cannot co-exist.
That’s quite Pharisaic (judgmental) of you to say.
M
mikeledes
Guest
When I asked you how the Old Testament saints were saved, you responded:
I’m assuming that it was by grace through faith. So were these who were justified by grace through faith also under the principle of law? If justification by grace through faith releases us from law as “the rule of life before God”, then how was it the “rule of life before God” for Old Testament believers?
God Bless,
Michael
M
moondweller
Guest
Depends on the object and content of one’s faith. One can have faith that God exists, but that faith is not the faith by which God justifies. It is mentioned in Hebrews that Abraham did certain things by faith, but only in Gen. 15:6 does it say:Gen 15:6 “Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith in Him) to him as righteousness.”
M
moondweller
Guest
Those who were under the covenant of the Mosaic Covenant (all of Israel) were under law. But we are saved through the blood of a “new covenant.”"…for you are not under law but under grace."
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, the Law lacked love. The Law cannot “love” anyone. The Law is the expression of God’s righteous standard. It’s purpose is not to love, but to show sin to be sin. What the Law does is make clear our inablity to love - our lack of love for God and each other - our shortcomings.
This is a very good question, I think. But first, let me point out that love being required by the Law does not mean the Law “contains” love.
Even the 10 commandments do not require love at the divine level. Even a person who loves God with His whole heart, mind, soul and strength still falls short of God’s love. Only the human heart filled to overflowing with God’s grace can love as God has loved Him. This supernatural love is beyond human capacity.
I know you know all that, but I am curious about where you are going with this silly arguement, so there it is.
There is that qualifier again “the saved”. Not anyone else, just us!
I am mystified that you can write things like this, then still persist in believing that good works somehow are separate from grace.
Well, let’s see. Are you saved if your sins are covered by Christ?
1 Peter 4:7-8
“Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.”
S
sandusky
Guest
In contrast to the Judaizers (with whom he makes the comparison below, and who received their religious instruction from rabbinic tradition—most Jews did not study the actual Scriptures; instead they used human interpretations of Scripture as their religious authority and guide. Many of their traditions not only were not taught in Scripture but also contradicted it; cf Mark 7:13), Paul received the gospel he preached directly from Christ—one-on-one: **Galatians 1:11-12
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.**It’s amazing that even today, among some, Paul must continue to defend his apostleship.
O
Odell
Guest
Can you answer me about the demons?
If your rule of life excluded love what makes you any different than the demons who believe?
now we both have different defenitions of fulfilled the Law.
On the one hand, the apostle says that Christians are not bound to a law on several occasions (see Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, and others). On the other hand, he also writes that the law is not cancelled but upheld.
**Romans 3:31 he writes, “do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” **
The harmony between these two verses lies in his teachings that by loving, we keep the law.
**
“Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8), **
If Jesus fulfilled as you believe than how do Christians fulfill the Law by loveing one another?
**he commands, and again “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Galatians 5:14).
**Here he quotes Jesus, who gave us the two commandments that we must follow to love God, and to love our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), teaching that these two commandments encompass all that the Law and prophets had taught before. Paul explains the same thing in
Romans 13:9-10: “The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
James agrees with Paul, writing, “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing well” (2:8). If love is in keeping the commandments, this is why James writes that “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (2:17). One who loves will express that Love in works, and so a faith without works is a faith without Love, and a faith without Love is dead.
S
sandusky
Guest
Thank you!If you tell your child that you will pay them so much a week IF they do certain chores, and they agree, that’s a verbal contract, and that dear fellow is a WAGE. An allowance is simply given. He is allowed so much money per period, period.Then what is withheld is the WAGE.Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due (get the principle?). But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"If anyone is Pharisaic it wouldn’t be me.You’re rationalizing and even perverting the definition of "gift."When it comes to salvation they are. None of us are deserving, that’s why its by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And that’s why law and grace cannot co-exist.That’s quite Pharisaic (judgmental) of you to say.
M
mikeledes
Guest
In Hebrews 11:1-2, the inspired author defines what he means by faith:
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2For by it the men of old gained approval.
Later it says:
**6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. **
So according to Hebrews, faith includes believing God exists, that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him, and that it is the conviction of things not seen. Let’s look at …
8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Now wouldn’t you say that if by faith Abraham obeyed God and went out, not knowing where he was going, that he had placed his trust in God? Wouldn’t the natural human reaction be, “I’m pretty comfortable where I am and I don’t know where I’m going, so I prefer to stay put?” And if he has placed his trust in God, then he has placed his faith in him? And how can a person truly believe that God exists and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him and not have faith in Him?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a common misunderstanding. We can earn things for ourselves and others, but only by grace, through faith.
"My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. " James 5:19
Do any of us believe that we can save the soul of another? Or that we can cover sins? Of ourselves, surely not! However, we can do all things in Christ who strengthens us.
- Status