Commandments should not be followed ...

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Note also that the Greek word for “reward” of Matthew 5:46 is “misthos”, meaning:

dues paid for work
wages, hire reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours
in both senses, rewards and punishments of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours of punishments

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
 
Then you must show me where Gen. 15:6 is repeated in each case. Or at least the equivalent of it. Otherwise you’re reading into the text something that is not there. Like guanophore thinking Abraham lost the righteousness he was reckoned by God when he lied about Sarah and had a child with Hagar.
Do you think that lying and adultery are expressions of righteous behavior?

Did these actions give glory to God?
 
“Freely given” and “merited” are not in opposition. I freely give to charities which are deserving. Perhaps you don’t, and that is an obstacle to your comprehension.
I don’t think that could be justified in his case, since he only feels bound to show love to those that believe as he does. Doing anything good for the poor that are not in his household of God would probably be the same as throwing pearls before swine. 🤷
 
I don’t think that could be justified in his case, since he only feels bound to show love to those that believe as he does. Doing anything good for the poor that are not in his household of God would probably be the same as throwing pearls before swine. 🤷
Perhaps, but Matthew 5:46 - 47 ought disabuse us of that notion, so long as Christianity correlates to “obeying Christ”.
 
Sean Boyle:
A mature faith, matures until what point to be a saving faith?
A “saving faith” saves from the start—witness the thief on the Cross, and his lack of works.
Sean Boyle:
Faith stops maturing at the end of our earthly life. Can assurance ever come before that point?
The believer is given assurance by the Lord, and the NT writers that he can be sure of his salvation. If one doesn’t believe in assurance, it cannot be on the basis of its exclusion from God’s testimony.
 
Moondweller is simply confounding predestination with predetermination, the second Fundamentalist stumbling block.
Just a little clarification. Moondweller is not a Calvinist. he believes in free will. Considering what Calvinists have said about “free will” Protestants, it always fascinates me when the two groups present a united front against Catholics. And yet their differences in their understanding of salvation and faith alone is substantive. For example, anti-Catholic James White has this to say about anti-Catholic OSAS free will Dave Hunt has this to say about “free will;”

**No matter how hard you try, you can’t avoid coming to the conclusion that, in a “free will” system of salvation, those who believe do so because there is something different about them. If the Spirit is bringing equal conviction to bear upon each individual, the only deciding factor, given equality in everything else, is something in the person himself. I believe the only possible difference between the redeemed in heaven and the guilty, condemned, punished sinner in hell is a five-letter word, Dave. It’s called “grace.” **

This is from vintage.aomin.org/DHOpenLetter.html

Calvinist John G. Reisinger argues that there are only two
religions in the world, the false religion of free will and the gospel of free grace:

The false religion of free will, or works, is based upon several unbiblical doctrines. The most basic of these is the universal and indiscriminate redemptive love of God. God is said to love all men in the same way and to the same degree. He loved Judas the same as Peter, Esau like Jacob, and the goats as much as the sheep. Since His love is universal then the greatest gift of His love, Jesus Christ His Son, must have been given to provide a universal atonement, meaning for every individual without exception, in His death. The objects of the Son’s atonement must be equal to the objects of the Father’s love, so both must include every man. If the Father loves all men equally, and the Son redeemed every man without exception, it follows that the Holy Spirit must convict every man or else the Trinity is not working together toward the same end in the task of redeeming lost men.

This is from soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm

Another Calvinist states the following:

(c.) Besides Christ there is no Saviour (Isa 43:11; Ho 13:4); but free-will Arminianism makes man a co-saviour with Christ; as if there was a halving of it between the grace of Christ and the will of man, and the latter dividing the spoil with the former; yea, deserving the greater share: for if Christ be only a monitor, and persuade to good, then man’s own will is the principal author of its own goodness; and he makes himself to differ from others, and hath something, that he received not at conversion, of which to boast before God. “Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” (1Co 4:7). Persuasion leaves the admonished will to its own indifferency, not changing it at all; so man becomes his own saviour, at least Christ is not the only Saviour; how then is Christ All in all?

This is from geocities.com/pvrosman/An_Antidote_Against_Arminianism_Of_Freewill_In_The_Fallen_State_Ch3UnNamed.html

Here’s what another Calvinist has to say on this issue:

**The Reformation doctrine of sola gratia is pertinent to our discussion of synergism and monergism. A salvation that is a cooperative effort between God and man is not a salvation by grace alone. There is no logical way to argue that it is. Grace plus something man adds to it, whatever that might be, is not grace alone …

To whatever degree we put confidence in human ability, we destroy the doctrine of grace alone. Most evangelicals will at least give lip service to the other solas. This one, if it is explained in the sense it was taught by the Reformers, is outright rejected. The idea of the bondage of the will as taught by Luther is rejected. The idea that God owes salvation to no one is rejected.**

This is from cicministry.org/commentary/issue93.htm BTW, the term “synergist” is applied to Catholics and faith alone free willn Protestants.

R.C. Sproul says the following:

**Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

The $64 question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others’ don’t. How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is. **

Many Calvinists have accused “free will” Protestants of teaching a gospel of human effort or works for believing that coming to faith involves free choice and of compromising the doctrine of sola gratia. So when Calvinists and “free will” Protestants unite on this issue, I always find it very ironic. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
A “saving faith” saves from the start—witness the thief on the Cross, and his lack of works.

No kidding, that is profound!

When does intellectual faith become saving faith? When is it mature enough? The thief on the cross had “faith that works” by admonishing the other thief for speaking publicly of his unbelief in Christ.

The believer is given assurance by the Lord, and the NT writers that he can be sure of his salvation. If he preserves until the end or is perfect as stated by the Lord and Scripture writers. If one doesn’t believe in assurance, it cannot be on the basis of its exclusion from God’s testimony. Assurance is granted if a person is faithful to and accepts the graces gifted by God in a “faith that works”, including the graces present in the Sacraments.
 
Thanks, Michael—although my head hurts now.

Fundamentalism began in the Presbyterian Church; I would have sworn these were Calvinist on the subject of free will.

Are you sure that there aren’t any Calvinist Fundamentalists?
 
Thanks, Michael—although my head hurts now.

Fundamentalism began in the Presbyterian Church; I would have sworn these were Calvinist on the subject of free will.

Are you sure that there aren’t any Calvinist Fundamentalists?
I’m sure there are Calvinist Fundamentalists. 😃 For the sake of accuracy, moondweller is not one of them.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Just a little clarification. Moondweller is not a Calvinist. he believes in free will. Considering what Calvinists have said about “free will” Protestants, it always fascinates me when the two groups present a united front against Catholics. And yet their differences in their understanding of salvation and faith alone is substantive. For example, anti-Catholic James White has this to say about anti-Catholic OSAS free will Dave Hunt has this to say about “free will;”

No matter how hard you try, you can’t avoid coming to the conclusion that, in a “free will” system of salvation, those who believe do so because there is something different about them. If the Spirit is bringing equal conviction to bear upon each individual, the only deciding factor, given equality in everything else, is something in the person himself. I believe the only possible difference between the redeemed in heaven and the guilty, condemned, punished sinner in hell is a five-letter word, Dave. It’s called “grace.”

This is from vintage.aomin.org/DHOpenLetter.html

Calvinist John G. Reisinger argues that there are only two
religions in the world, the false religion of free will and the gospel of free grace:

The false religion of free will, or works, is based upon several unbiblical doctrines. The most basic of these is the universal and indiscriminate redemptive love of God. God is said to love all men in the same way and to the same degree. He loved Judas the same as Peter, Esau like Jacob, and the goats as much as the sheep. Since His love is universal then the greatest gift of His love, Jesus Christ His Son, must have been given to provide a universal atonement, meaning for every individual without exception, in His death. The objects of the Son’s atonement must be equal to the objects of the Father’s love, so both must include every man. If the Father loves all men equally, and the Son redeemed every man without exception, it follows that the Holy Spirit must convict every man or else the Trinity is not working together toward the same end in the task of redeeming lost men.

This is from soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm

Another Calvinist states the following:

(c.) Besides Christ there is no Saviour (Isa 43:11; Ho 13:4); but free-will Arminianism makes man a co-saviour with Christ; as if there was a halving of it between the grace of Christ and the will of man, and the latter dividing the spoil with the former; yea, deserving the greater share: for if Christ be only a monitor, and persuade to good, then man’s own will is the principal author of its own goodness; and he makes himself to differ from others, and hath something, that he received not at conversion, of which to boast before God. “Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” (1Co 4:7). Persuasion leaves the admonished will to its own indifferency, not changing it at all; so man becomes his own saviour, at least Christ is not the only Saviour; how then is Christ All in all?

This is from geocities.com/pvrosman/An_Antidote_Against_Arminianism_Of_Freewill_In_The_Fallen_State_Ch3UnNamed.html

Here’s what another Calvinist has to say on this issue:

**The Reformation doctrine of sola gratia is pertinent to our discussion of synergism and monergism. A salvation that is a cooperative effort between God and man is not a salvation by grace alone. There is no logical way to argue that it is. Grace plus something man adds to it, whatever that might be, is not grace alone …

To whatever degree we put confidence in human ability, we destroy the doctrine of grace alone. Most evangelicals will at least give lip service to the other solas. This one, if it is explained in the sense it was taught by the Reformers, is outright rejected. The idea of the bondage of the will as taught by Luther is rejected. The idea that God owes salvation to no one is rejected.**

This is from cicministry.org/commentary/issue93.htm BTW, the term “synergist” is applied to Catholics and faith alone free willn Protestants.

R.C. Sproul says the following:

**Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

The $64 question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others’ don’t. How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is**.

Many Calvinists have accused “free will” Protestants of teaching a gospel of human effort or works for believing that coming to faith involves free choice and of compromising the doctrine of sola gratia. So when Calvinists and “free will” Protestants unite on this issue, I always find it very ironic. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Your Poisoning of the Well by Red Herring is duly noted.
 
I’m sure there are Calvinist Fundamentalists. 😃 For the sake of accuracy, moondweller is not one of them.

God Bless,
Michael
A fair point; just wanted to make sure my understanding of Fundamentalism hadn’t gone way off the rails; been reading so much history of it lately my eyes are crossing.
 
Your Poisoning of the Well by Red Herring is duly noted.
It is not poisoning, it’s saying the truth. What has been duly noted is that when Catholics are not involved, many Calvinists practically accuse “free will” Protestants of having a gospel of works because they believe in free choice or accuse them of having a “man-centered” religion. Most of the quotes I provided are from Monergism.com. No, I’m not poisoning the well. I’m exposing the truth and removing a facade of agreement. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
When it comes to salvation they are. None of us are deserving, that’s why its by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And that’s why law and grace cannot co-exist.T
I think this statement elucidates the crux of the logical error. God created mankind in a state of grace. He gave them law. Grace and law co-existed. Grace did not cease to exist when God gave Law to Moses, and Law did not cease to exist when grace and Truth came through Jesus. On the contary, not only do they co-exist, but they work together.

If it were not for God’s justice made evident in the Law, we would not need any salvation at all. It was failure to act within the boundaries He ordained that put us in this position in the first place!
 
You could try by faith and God’s love toward us through the Person and sacrificial work of the incarnate Son. Too easy for you?
Such a state would seem to require that one be in an experiential relationship with the Son, so that one could benefit from His sacrificial work.

However, the Apostles teaches us:

1 John 4:7-9
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Are you proposing that mental assent that Christ died for us is sufficient? Are you proposing that one does not really have to “know” God?

Are you not the one who stated on another thread that the ones that were thrown out, of whom it was said “I never knew you” were those that were not saved?
 
It is not poisoning, it’s saying the truth. What has been duly noted is that when Catholics are not involved, many Calvinists practically accuse “free will” Protestants of having a gospel of works because they believe in free choice or accuse them of having a “man-centered” religion. Most of the quotes I provided are from Monergism.com. No, I’m not poisoning the well. I’m exposing the truth and removing a facade of agreement. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Sure it is, and your last sentence continues it. 🙂

From where you’ve pasted it, is irrelevant. 🙂

I’ve never queried moondweller concerning the particulars of his faith; neither has he ever queried me as to the particulars of mine. 🤷
 
Sure it is, and your last sentence continues it. 🙂

From where you’ve pasted it, is irrelevant. 🙂

I’ve never queried moondweller concerning the particulars of his faith; neither has he ever queried me as to the particulars of mine. 🤷
🤷 I guess saying the truth is poisoning. What I cited in that post are the arguments against free will I have seen in this forum and in Calvinist and Arminian websites and they are very similar to what I have seen in this thread, hence the irony.

I assumed you already knew that moondweller believed in free will, being that I asked him that question and he responded in the “works gospel” thread, in which you were a participant. I sincerely apologize for incorrectly assuming that you read his response. I guess now you know. 🙂

God bless,
Michael
 
In reading the 6th Session of Trent on justification, I come away with a clear understanding that Trent taught a salvation gained on the basis of "meriting merit," or "meriting grace," as reflected in your catechism.

From the CCC:2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.(Notice the distinction between initial and subsequent grace.)

IMO, to merit grace is an oxymoron (cf Rom 11:6).
It seems that way because you are imposing your modern understanding of the word “merit” on a term that was used differently 500 years ago.

Let us look at an example:

2 Thess 1:4-5
4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, and is intended to make you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering.

The Thessalonians are enduring persecutions and afflictions. These are evidence of the righteous judgement of God (believers need to be purified). Persecution is intended to make us “worthy of the kingdom”. Now, we all agree that we cannot, of ourselves, ever be worthy of the Kingdom, so what is the Apostle saying? We are to bear fruit “worthy” of repentenance, that means that we become entirely deserving of the fine gift we have been given. We are deemed entitled to it (meritorious), just as faith is “reckoned” as righteousness, our perseverance in suffering is “deemed meritorious”.

Another example: “…whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Matt 10:38-39

Now, we know that none of us are every “worthy” of Christ, yet we are deemed entitled (reckoned deserving) by our actions. In the Gk. haxios

Perhaps the best example of “merit”;

2 A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave. 4 When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, “**He is worthy **of having you do this for him, 5 for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.” Luke 7:1-6

The centurion is described as haxios, worthy - meritorious. How? He did good things for the Jews. Does doing good things obligate God to do anything for us? No. Did he, by his meritorious contributions demonstrate a heart inclined toward God? Just as Cornelius, his righteous deeds went before God as a memorial.

You see that being “worthy” or having “merit” does not obligate God, yet God is just, and is pleased to reward those who diligently seek Him. Jesus heals the centurions servant. Was paying “wages”? No.
 
🤷 I guess saying the truth is poisoning. What I cited in that post are the arguments against free will I have seen in this forum and in Calvinist and Arminian websites and they are very similar to what I have seen in this thread, hence the irony.

I assumed you already knew that moondweller believed in free will, being that I asked him that question and he responded in the “works gospel” thread, in which you were a participant. I sincerely apologize for incorrectly assuming that you read his response. I guess now you know. 🙂

God bless,
Michael
Thanks for the apology, Mike; no hard feelings. :tiphat:
 
Where in Heb. 11 does it even mention Abraham’s justification?
All the examples given in Heb. 11 about faith are attached to works accomplished by that faith. This is why we say that faith is never “alone”. It always expresses itself in sacred works.
 
He wasn’t properly catechized; right? :rotfl:
So it would seem. He is also the victim of the egregious abuses rampant in Europe during that time, and possibly mentally ill as well. The combination of factors weighs against him.
I don’t need to explain anything; your words illustrate Trent perfectly: salvation is gained on the basis of meriting merit, or meriting grace; therefore, my opinion will always be that yours is a system of works, and that’s further illustrated by the fact that one can lose justification based upon his bad performance—works. 🤷
Well, you clearly misunderstand the nature and source of merit. We can merit salvation only by grace, through faith. It is the work of Christ on the cross that is our merit. When we become one in Him, we can participate in His merits, but not otherwise.

One does not “lost justification based on his bad performance”. On the contrary, we see a great many saints throughout history who have "bad performance’ at times. Peter, for example, who verbalizes to Christ the agenda of Satan, then denies our Lord in His hour of conviction. Why was Peter not lost? He was saved by grace, through faith. Unlilke Judas, who also denied Christ, but did not avail himself of the saving grace of forgiveness.

It is not our “performance” that causes us to lose right standing before God, but lack of faith. Lack of faith results in wrongdoing, and the wages of sin is death. The wages have not changed, moon “this side of the cross”.

Rev 3:4
4 Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Those with soiled clothes will not walk with Christ, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.
 
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