T
Teflon93
Guest
Perhaps he was simply reminding us that Mass is this evening or tomorrow morning.
Thanks, Sandusky!
- Status
Thanks, Sandusky!
G
guanophore
Guest
I do agree. My point was that he did suffer, and I am sure it was hard. He joined His sufferings with those of Christ, and at the same time, was suffering the just punishment for his crime.
G
guanophore
Guest
If I understant sandy’s theology, he believes that one becomes regenerated first, and that is how he gets justified. Since being justified required faith, and we cannot come to faith when our hearts are at enmity with God. I am sure he will straighten me out on that point if I did not get it right.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
Moondweller
The Saint of the Day
**The 40 Martyrs of Sebaste, March 10
Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
Biographical selection:
The story of these martyrs unfolded in the city of Sebaste during the reign of Emperor Licinius in 320 AD. A garrison of Roman soldiers - 40 in number - were stationed in this remote Armenian town. They were bold, courageous Catholic Roman soldiers who preferred to die rather than renounce their Faith. Upon hearing of this, the infuriated Emperor issued an edict, stating that those throughout the Empire who would not worship pagan gods would be tortured and put to death.
The 40 martyrs of Sebaste in Armenia were whipped, tortured and imprisoned, but would not relent. Finally, the governor Lysias devised an extraordinary kind of death which he hoped would shake their constancy. He ordered the soldiers to be placed in a pond of frozen water and left for a whole winter night.
Twenty of the 40 martyrs of Sebaste, Vatican Museum
In the morning the bodies of all were supposed to be carted off to be incinerated. However, the youngest of the officials, whom the acts call Melito, was found alive. Seeing this, the pagan soldiers removed him from the cart with hope that he would apostatize when he came to himself.
The mother of Melito, who was present, understood their intention. Rich in faith, this good Catholic approached her son, quite frozen and barely breathing, looking on her with languishing eyes. She exhorted him to persevere to the end. Then she returned his body to the cart with the corpses of his companions. She told him, “Go, go, my son, proceed to the end of this happy journey with your companions, that you might not be the last of them that present themselves before God.” She pronounced these words without a single tear, and with a joyful countenance she followed the cart to the fire.
After the bodies were burned, the ashes were to be dispersed in the wind and their bones thrown into the river, but God conserved them so that the faithful could gather them later and keep these precious relics.
Reflecting on these martyrs, St. Basil wrote:
“O sacred troop! O glorious company! O invincible battalion! Flowers of the Church, yes I repeat, human flowers! Stars that shine among the stars! Martyrs worthy of the praise of all the centuries! To you the doors of Paradise were opened, and from the palaces of Heaven the Angels, Prophets, Patriarchs and all Saints came out to witness your triumphal arrival. A sight worthy of the Angelic Army! Forty warriors in the very flower of their youth who have disdained this life, who have loved the Lord above parents, children, wives and relatives. They disregarded this temporal life that they might glorify God in their members .…
"Having raised up the trophy of their victory against Hell, each one received a crown from the hand of Christ Jesus Our Lord, to Whom be glory and dominion to the ages of ages.”
Comments of Prof. Plinio:
It is embarrassing to make any comment after having heard the superb eulogy made by St. Basil. But since that is what I am supposed to do, let me consider some of the points of this selection.
You can see the marvelous thing that happened: forty officers arrived in Heaven, as St. Basil observed, as a marching Legion. Indifferent to the barriers that separate the finite and the infinite, the transitory and the eternal, with their armors, helmets, lances and shields, they crossed in cadenced steps through the terrible valley of death and presented themselves on the other side, in Heaven.
St. Basil imagines all the saints of Heaven coming to its gates to witness the arrival of the 40 martyrs of Sebaste
St. Basil imagines them arriving at Heaven with every inhabitant coming to see, his model most probably being the triumphal procession into Rome of victorious generals who were acclaimed by the people and crowned with laurels by the Emperor. Such processions used to be the moment of crowning glory for generals. St. Basil continued with this exquisite analogy of the 40 martyred soldiers right up to the crowns bestowed on them by Our Lord. With this, the summit of glory was achieved.
One of their members did not die with the others. The apex of glory for him was yet to come. You heard that the Roman soldiers, moved by a false compassion, wanted to keep him alive so they could again induce him to abjure the Faith. You saw that his mother, in a position more sublime than his own, offered her son for martyrdom. The mother returned him to the cart to be burned, and told him to not lose the opportunity to go to Heaven. Her holocaust has something of a sacerdotal sacrifice. She placed the victim on the cart as if it were an altar. And she followed the cart without shedding a single tear and with a joyful countenance until it reached the site where the bodies were to be burned so that she might see the body of the one to whom she gave life consumed by fire. For she knew that he would receive eternal life as a consequence of the good formation she had given him.
It is almost impossible to imagine a more beautiful thing than this. The only thing one can envision that exceeds this is a similar episode. Another Mother immolating another Son at the Cross. Our Lady also followed Our Lord step by step until His martyrdom reached its end.
You find in this episode a manifestation of a heroism that is even more precious than the heroism of the soldier who offered himself. The mother who offers her son in this way gives proof of a grandeur of soul that is extremely rare in History.
It is also interesting that when St. Basil presented the highest merits of these martyrs, he did not say that they loved God more than the pleasures and seductions of the world. It would have been very beautiful, but it was not what he did. What he said was that they had loved God more than their parents, children and wives, who remained on earth mourning them because they had chosen to die rather than apostatize. Loving God more than their relatives, they fulfilled those words of Our Lord: “Do not think that I am come to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother …. He who loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me.” (Math 10:34-37)
Our Lord said this because at times we have to make such a choice, we have to break with our families to do the will of God. Even of it is very difficult, we should follow the words of Our Lord. This is the reason why St. Basil gave the greatest merit to this point when he eulogized the 40 martyrs of Sebaste. I consider this tribute of St. Basil a truly marvelous thing!
Let us ask the 40 martyrs of Sebaste to teach us to have the same spirit they had, loving God more than anyone else. **
How many Christians died like this? Are you saying that their “works” (martyrdom) were not counted as righteous before the Lord? Are you saying that they died for NOTHING, that there was nothing good in it for them that they died in such a way? Are you saying that the sacrifice of their lives, the same as the sacrifice of Daniel, is worthless? Are you counting the sacrifice of that mother…giving her son so completely to Jesus, and offering him to death rather than having him deny Jesus is totally unimportant and worthless before the Lord Jesus?
Was the sacrifice of of their own lives when the APOSTLES were martyred meaningless and worthless before the Lord Jesus?
Does nothing good that we do in the name of and for the service of Jesus Christ…doing what He did…mean anything? Why would God ask us to do worthless things? Does He ask us to become Martyrs?
He clearly states that those who deny Him to the world will be denied by Him to the Father. So clearly we are called to become martyrs rather than deny Him. And that, dear Moondweller is called and refered to as the “works” or “laws” that you totally deny.
The Saint of the Day
**The 40 Martyrs of Sebaste, March 10
Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
Biographical selection:
The story of these martyrs unfolded in the city of Sebaste during the reign of Emperor Licinius in 320 AD. A garrison of Roman soldiers - 40 in number - were stationed in this remote Armenian town. They were bold, courageous Catholic Roman soldiers who preferred to die rather than renounce their Faith. Upon hearing of this, the infuriated Emperor issued an edict, stating that those throughout the Empire who would not worship pagan gods would be tortured and put to death.
The 40 martyrs of Sebaste in Armenia were whipped, tortured and imprisoned, but would not relent. Finally, the governor Lysias devised an extraordinary kind of death which he hoped would shake their constancy. He ordered the soldiers to be placed in a pond of frozen water and left for a whole winter night.
Twenty of the 40 martyrs of Sebaste, Vatican Museum
In the morning the bodies of all were supposed to be carted off to be incinerated. However, the youngest of the officials, whom the acts call Melito, was found alive. Seeing this, the pagan soldiers removed him from the cart with hope that he would apostatize when he came to himself.
The mother of Melito, who was present, understood their intention. Rich in faith, this good Catholic approached her son, quite frozen and barely breathing, looking on her with languishing eyes. She exhorted him to persevere to the end. Then she returned his body to the cart with the corpses of his companions. She told him, “Go, go, my son, proceed to the end of this happy journey with your companions, that you might not be the last of them that present themselves before God.” She pronounced these words without a single tear, and with a joyful countenance she followed the cart to the fire.
After the bodies were burned, the ashes were to be dispersed in the wind and their bones thrown into the river, but God conserved them so that the faithful could gather them later and keep these precious relics.
Reflecting on these martyrs, St. Basil wrote:
“O sacred troop! O glorious company! O invincible battalion! Flowers of the Church, yes I repeat, human flowers! Stars that shine among the stars! Martyrs worthy of the praise of all the centuries! To you the doors of Paradise were opened, and from the palaces of Heaven the Angels, Prophets, Patriarchs and all Saints came out to witness your triumphal arrival. A sight worthy of the Angelic Army! Forty warriors in the very flower of their youth who have disdained this life, who have loved the Lord above parents, children, wives and relatives. They disregarded this temporal life that they might glorify God in their members .…
"Having raised up the trophy of their victory against Hell, each one received a crown from the hand of Christ Jesus Our Lord, to Whom be glory and dominion to the ages of ages.”
Comments of Prof. Plinio:
It is embarrassing to make any comment after having heard the superb eulogy made by St. Basil. But since that is what I am supposed to do, let me consider some of the points of this selection.
You can see the marvelous thing that happened: forty officers arrived in Heaven, as St. Basil observed, as a marching Legion. Indifferent to the barriers that separate the finite and the infinite, the transitory and the eternal, with their armors, helmets, lances and shields, they crossed in cadenced steps through the terrible valley of death and presented themselves on the other side, in Heaven.
St. Basil imagines all the saints of Heaven coming to its gates to witness the arrival of the 40 martyrs of Sebaste
St. Basil imagines them arriving at Heaven with every inhabitant coming to see, his model most probably being the triumphal procession into Rome of victorious generals who were acclaimed by the people and crowned with laurels by the Emperor. Such processions used to be the moment of crowning glory for generals. St. Basil continued with this exquisite analogy of the 40 martyred soldiers right up to the crowns bestowed on them by Our Lord. With this, the summit of glory was achieved.
One of their members did not die with the others. The apex of glory for him was yet to come. You heard that the Roman soldiers, moved by a false compassion, wanted to keep him alive so they could again induce him to abjure the Faith. You saw that his mother, in a position more sublime than his own, offered her son for martyrdom. The mother returned him to the cart to be burned, and told him to not lose the opportunity to go to Heaven. Her holocaust has something of a sacerdotal sacrifice. She placed the victim on the cart as if it were an altar. And she followed the cart without shedding a single tear and with a joyful countenance until it reached the site where the bodies were to be burned so that she might see the body of the one to whom she gave life consumed by fire. For she knew that he would receive eternal life as a consequence of the good formation she had given him.
It is almost impossible to imagine a more beautiful thing than this. The only thing one can envision that exceeds this is a similar episode. Another Mother immolating another Son at the Cross. Our Lady also followed Our Lord step by step until His martyrdom reached its end.
You find in this episode a manifestation of a heroism that is even more precious than the heroism of the soldier who offered himself. The mother who offers her son in this way gives proof of a grandeur of soul that is extremely rare in History.
It is also interesting that when St. Basil presented the highest merits of these martyrs, he did not say that they loved God more than the pleasures and seductions of the world. It would have been very beautiful, but it was not what he did. What he said was that they had loved God more than their parents, children and wives, who remained on earth mourning them because they had chosen to die rather than apostatize. Loving God more than their relatives, they fulfilled those words of Our Lord: “Do not think that I am come to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother …. He who loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me.” (Math 10:34-37)
Our Lord said this because at times we have to make such a choice, we have to break with our families to do the will of God. Even of it is very difficult, we should follow the words of Our Lord. This is the reason why St. Basil gave the greatest merit to this point when he eulogized the 40 martyrs of Sebaste. I consider this tribute of St. Basil a truly marvelous thing!
Let us ask the 40 martyrs of Sebaste to teach us to have the same spirit they had, loving God more than anyone else. **
How many Christians died like this? Are you saying that their “works” (martyrdom) were not counted as righteous before the Lord? Are you saying that they died for NOTHING, that there was nothing good in it for them that they died in such a way? Are you saying that the sacrifice of their lives, the same as the sacrifice of Daniel, is worthless? Are you counting the sacrifice of that mother…giving her son so completely to Jesus, and offering him to death rather than having him deny Jesus is totally unimportant and worthless before the Lord Jesus?
Was the sacrifice of of their own lives when the APOSTLES were martyred meaningless and worthless before the Lord Jesus?
Does nothing good that we do in the name of and for the service of Jesus Christ…doing what He did…mean anything? Why would God ask us to do worthless things? Does He ask us to become Martyrs?
He clearly states that those who deny Him to the world will be denied by Him to the Father. So clearly we are called to become martyrs rather than deny Him. And that, dear Moondweller is called and refered to as the “works” or “laws” that you totally deny.
G
guanophore
Guest
He has said nothing of the kind. He just said they were not saved by being martyrs, that they were saved (if indeed he counts them among the saved, considering they are Catholics) by grace, through faith.
Moondweller has never said anything of the kind. He has not denied that we have rewards in heaven. He has just said that we cannot “work” our way to heaven. We are not saved by works, but by faith.
Moon has not said that our sacrifices go unnoticed to God, only that they are irrelevant toward our salvation, which is apart from works. He has never said that any of the deaths of the martyrs were “meaningless”.
Only after we are saved.
According to moon, our own works are worthless to get us into heaven. Only grace, through faith, can save us. To the extent that these actions on the part of persons demonstrate that saving faith is present, they have value.
Moon has not denied works or laws, either. He has only said that salvation is not based upon them. I think you need to go back and read the thread, and maybe go to the thread linked in the OP to get a bigger picture.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
I have read almost all of the posts. I was referring to the merits conversation. If I have spoken in error, I do apologize. But it does indeed seem as though he is saying that there is nothing that we can or cannot do that would affect our being accepted by Jesus into Heaven. A once saved always saved mindset. Therefore, the sacrifice of the martyrs was worthless, because if they had already confessed Jesus once and were baptised, there was no reason for them not to deny him rather than die…they would still have gone to Heaven.He has said nothing of the kind. He just said they were not saved by being martyrs, that they were saved (if indeed he counts them among the saved, considering they are Catholics) by grace, through faith.
Moondweller has never said anything of the kind. He has not denied that we have rewards in heaven. He has just said that we cannot “work” our way to heaven. We are not saved by works, but by faith.
Moon has not said that our sacrifices go unnoticed to God, only that they are irrelevant toward our salvation, which is apart from works. He has never said that any of the deaths of the martyrs were “meaningless”.
Only after we are saved.
According to moon, our own works are worthless to get us into heaven. Only grace, through faith, can save us. To the extent that these actions on the part of persons demonstrate that saving faith is present, they have value.
Moon has not denied works or laws, either. He has only said that salvation is not based upon them. I think you need to go back and read the thread, and maybe go to the thread linked in the OP to get a bigger picture.
Guanophore, does that make sense? or am I still way off base?
S
sandusky
Guest
Seems Welch solved the problem.
Read what I said again.
I’ve never claimed He did.
That’s a pity.
I don’t know what happened to the rich man.
S
sandusky
Guest
Yes.
S
sandusky
Guest
Whatever his circumstance, it’s clear the Lord saved him.
Sorry for including the entire post, Phil; I was responding to what one should do when he sins.
You find sola fide useless—got it.
S
sandusky
Guest
He suffered the just punishment for his crime; whether or not he joined his sufferings with those of Christ is speculation.
The unregenerate are said to be dead in sin and trespasses (Eph 2; Col 2), and caused to be born again by God (1 Pet 1:3). The Spirit’s words are deliberate—dead man can’t do anything; therefore, it seems likely to me that regeneration occurs first.
P
Pax
Guest
This is something you denied on another thread in our discussion of infused versus imputed righteousness. I’m glad we now agree on this point.
E
ellammcg
Guest
P
Pax
Guest
This is something that you disagreed with on another thread in our discussion of infused versus imputed righteousness.
I’m glad that we now agree on this point.
P
Pax
Guest
You make a great point Cherie pertaining to denying Christ and you make a great point concerning “enduring to the end.” If we deny Christ we will be condemned; if we fail to endure to the end we will also forfeit the gift of salvation." There are numerous verses of scripture that attest to both of these points.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
ellammcg,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus N Cherie
the sacrifice of the martyrs was worthless, because if they had already confessed Jesus once and were baptised, there was no reason for them not to deny him rather than die…they would still have gone to Heaven.
I strongly disagree with this statement. That was the purpose of my post. I was disagreeing with what those who are OSAS believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus N Cherie
the sacrifice of the martyrs was worthless, because if they had already confessed Jesus once and were baptised, there was no reason for them not to deny him rather than die…they would still have gone to Heaven.
I strongly disagree with this statement. That was the purpose of my post. I was disagreeing with what those who are OSAS believe.
P
Philthy
Guest
No problem - I just didnt understand the answer. Is there any particular problem - as in a consquence - with not confessing sins?
I find it useless(unable to be used by them) in a discussion between Christians. It has some potential merit in other arenas.
Phil
Did I really just use the word merit?
S
sandusky
Guest
Ps 32 and other bits in the OT in the same vein come to mind.
I misunderstood you. I enjoy discussing it with someone who embraces it as I do; however, you and me discussing it is just not the same.
You did.
M
moondweller
Guest
Luke 10:26-27 "And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” And he answered, "You shall love the Lord you God with all you heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and (love) your neighbor as yourself."It seems the Jewish lawyer, who was actually under the Law, understood the Law. How is it that you who desire to be under that Law fail to understand it? It would be wise, indeed, to first fully understand something before placing it over you to act as your judge.
Yes, because it was perfect and good and demanded full obedience to the letter. It’s purpose was to define sin so as to make sin utterly sinful through many transgressions of it. Ultimately, to lead those under it to Christ to be justified, not by love, but “BY FAITH.” How is it you continue to deny this clearly defined purpose for the Law:Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our (Jews) tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."Notice, again, nothing is added to faith - faith in respect to salvation and justification is always alone, nothing added.
Totally nonsensical, guanophore!!! And I think you know it. You’re clearly rationalizing.
And yet you place those Commandments over you as your judge as to whether or not you have sinned “mortally” and have loved sufficiently to merit salvation.
Who was He speaking to when He gave the “new” commandment? It certainly wasn’t all of Israel, nor the Gentiles. You seem have a great problem with Christ requiring those who are His in the world to love one another? That would be like you having a problem with your parents telling you to love your siblings. God forbid they should require such a thing of you, right? Teflon would ask, “Dad, does that mean we’re to hate our neighbors?”
Good works are separate from saving grace. Otherwise one cannot be saved “by grace.” Paul said" “I live by faith IN THE SON OF GOD who loved me and gave himself up for me.” It’s all about faith in HIS WORK, none of ours. You’re mystified because you cannot conceive of a salvation purely of grace (unmerited favor) through faith in Christ alone. You have this need for God to recognize you as well.
Yes, if you believe in Him, which would include what he accomplished, once for all, for you.
So now you’re claiming to be the savior of yourself and others? How far will you drift from the gospel just to defend your position?
M
moondweller
Guest
I already answered you? GRACE does not exclude love. But salvation itself is not gifted based on my love, either for God or my neighbor, but His love toward me through the sacrificial work of the incarnate Son.
Would Christ have given a “new” commandment to the redeemed to love one another if love was excluded?
Nevertheless, love, unlike faith, is not a condition for salvation. It’s a fruit of it.
I wouldn’t say different definitions. Our difference is that you’re trying to fulfilled something Christ already has. In fact the only Man who ever could or ever would.
We “uphold” the Law “by this faith,” Odell, because the purpose of the Law was to lead those under its jurisdiction to Christ - to be justified BY FAITH (Gal. 3:24, notice not “faith plus…”). Hence, “by this FAITH” we uphold the Law. We fulfill its purpose. You who want to be justified by Law, however, do not uphold it.
As for your latter quote (Rom. 13:8), it’s a statement, not a stated condition for salvation.
- Status