Commandments should not be followed ...

[mikeledes]

MOST of my closest friends in Christ are Calvinists. I’ve studied the issues and we’ve discussed them many times over without animosity. We have a very strong bond between us in the Lord upon the agreement that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone…this is what Paul meant when he said, “…but the greatest of these is love.” He wasn’t talking in respect to salvation, but community amongst the saints.

I’m also well aquainted with Calvinists and I don’t question that there is a loving bond between you and your Calvinist friends based on belief in faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I’ve had good relationships with Protestants of diverse backgrounds in which they have considered me a fellow brother in Christ and have treated me as such. Many Calvinists believe that Arminians (“four pointers” or “five pointers”) can be geuine regenerate Christian brothers and sisters and believe that they should be treated with loving respect. This, however, does not mean that Calvinists believe that the differences are inconsequential or not really substantitive. Phil Johnson of gracetoyou is not a militant Calvinist crusader against Arminianism, but he also says the following:

**If you think I’m beginning to sound like an apologist for Arminianism, I’m definitely not that. I do think Arminianism is a profound error. Its tendencies can be truly sinister, and when it is allowed to go to seed, it does lead people into rank heresy. But what I’m saying here is that mere Arminianism itself isn’t damnable heresy. It’s just grossly inconsistent with the core gospel doctrines that Arminians themselves believe and affirm. **

He also says:

**Which is to say that Arminianism is inherently inconsistent. Arminians technically affirm the fundamental, essential truths of the gospel. Then they try to build a theology on top of that which is totally inconsistent with the solid foundation they have affirmed.

I agree with that assessment of Arminianism. It’s an attempt to reconcile the sovereignty of God with human responsibility—and the Arminian method of reconciling those two truths involves a view of human free will that is inherently inconsistent with certain gospel truths every Arminian actually affirms. **

gty.org/Resources/Articles/10194

As long as discussion remains on the* surface*, there is a lot of agreement. However, when you delve into the nature of faith alone and grace alone, that is when the substantive differnces are exposed. If you believe that faith involves libertarian choice, then Calvinists believe that is making man sovereign on the issue of salvation, not God, and hence you are robbing Him of His glory. Many believe that libertarian free will is an assault on sovereign grace. Grace alone means grace alone. Once you have man consciously self-determining his own eternal destiny by chosing to believe or not believe, you are adding man’s effort (i.e choice) to God’s grace, thus undermining the principle of grace alone and making yourself into a co-savior with Christ, thus undermining the principle of Christ alone. This is not the opinion of fringe Calvinists like Harold Campin of Family Radio - whose program I used to listen to a lot as teen. This is the opinion of many mainstream Calvinist apologists and theologians.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

I’ve read that exchange; I would suggest that you consider that what you said, and the conclusion you’ve reached is of such absurdity that moondweller doesn’t deem it worthy of a response, and has chosen instead to leave you caressing your illusion, all the while chuckling to himself everytime you reintroduce it—I know I do.

How is it we’ve never met and yet you know me. Must be the bond of unity we have in the Spirit and our exceeding joy of the grace of God in the Person and work of Christ.

 

[moondweller]

I’m also well aquainted with Calvinists and I don’t question that there is a loving bond between you and your Calvinist friends based on belief in faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I’ve had good relationships with Protestants of diverse backgrounds in which they have considered me a fellow brother in Christ and have treated me as such. Many Calvinists believe that Arminians (“four pointers” or “five pointers”) can be geuine regenerate Christian brothers and sisters and believe that they should be treated with loving respect. This, however, does not mean that Calvinists believe that the differences are inconsequential or not really substantitive. Phil Johnson of gracetoyou is not a militant Calvinist crusader against Arminianism, but he also says the following:

If you think I’m beginning to sound like an apologist for Arminianism, I’m definitely not that. I do think Arminianism is a profound error. Its tendencies can be truly sinister, and when it is allowed to go to seed, it does lead people into rank heresy. But what I’m saying here is that mere Arminianism itself isn’t damnable heresy. It’s just grossly inconsistent with the core gospel doctrines that Arminians themselves believe and affirm.

He also says:

**Which is to say that Arminianism is inherently inconsistent. Arminians technically affirm the fundamental, essential truths of the gospel. Then they try to build a theology on top of that which is totally inconsistent with the solid foundation they have affirmed.

I agree with that assessment of Arminianism. It’s an attempt to reconcile the sovereignty of God with human responsibility—and the Arminian method of reconciling those two truths involves a view of human free will that is inherently inconsistent with certain gospel truths every Arminian actually affirms**.

gty.org/Resources/Articles/10194

As long as discussion remains on the* surface*, there is a lot of agreement. However, when you delve into the nature of faith alone and grace alone, that is when the substantive differnces are exposed. If you believe that faith involves libertarian choice, then Calvinists believe that is making man sovereign on the issue of salvation, not God, and hence you are robbing Him of His glory. Many believe that libertarian free will is an assault on sovereign grace. Grace alone means grace alone. Once you have man consciously self-determining his own eternal destiny by chosing to believe or not believe, you are adding man’s effort (i.e choice) to God’s grace, thus undermining the principle of grace alone and making yourself into a co-savior with Christ, thus undermining the principle of Christ alone. This is not the opinion of fringe Calvinists like Harold Campin of Family Radio - whose program I used to listen to a lot as teen. This is the opinion of many mainstream Calvinist apologists and theologians.

God Bless,
Michael

As I said Michael, I am VERY familiar with ALL the issues. I am not “arminian” either.

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by sandusky
I’ve read that exchange; I would suggest that you consider that what you said, **and the conclusion you’ve reached is of such absurdity that moondweller doesn’t deem it worthy of a response, **and has chosen instead to leave you caressing your illusion, all the while chuckling to himself everytime you reintroduce it—I know I do.

How is it we’ve never met and yet you know me. Must be the bond of unity we have in the Spirit and our exceeding joy of the grace of God in the Person and work of Christ.

tell me how absurd it is to respond to my question of whom I should believe Paul or moondweller?

Paul says Love fulfills the Law

Moon says faith fulfills the Law

Moon aslo cant answer me on how his faith is any different than the demons:shrug:

 

[moondweller]

moondweller,

Subsequent to making this post you have once again claimed that Abraham was justified on only one occassion even though I proved otherwise. I even gave you posts 356, 358, 360, 453, and 548 for your review. Instead of answering the scriptural content of those posts and taking the challenge above, you simply march on and repeat that which has been scripturally refuted.

Please make your case by attempting to refute what has been presented. Thus far on this point about Abraham you have no case and you have no credibility. Moreover, there is no place in scripture that says a person shall be justified only once. Yet, scripture clearly shows that Abraham was justified 3 times. I proved it so I can continue to say it. You need to refute my arguments or you are simply making noise and that to no avail.

Well, Pax, I am still waiting for you to show me where, in Scripture, it is recorded that God actually justifies Abraham as He did in Gen. 15:6. So far you have only asserted it. I simply cannot rely on your word. Both Paul and James cite only ONE occasion: Gen. 15:6. Yet you insist on two others. You own a Bible, please provide me with the quotes.

 

[BRB]

Was St Paul present in Christ’s classroom with the other apostles?

No, Paul was ‘fast tracked’ by Christ at a later date. Paul’s Christian education was unique — but no less genuine or apostolic than received by the other 11.

Indeed, he appears to be the 12th man … the one needed to bring Christianity to the gentiles.

 

[moondweller]

tell me how absurd it is to respond to my question of whom I should believe Paul or moondweller?

Paul says Love fulfills the Law

Moon says faith fulfills the Law

I already answered you on this, Odell. That love fulfills the Law is a statement, not a stated requirement (condition) for salvation. One cannot be justified by the works of the law, nor is the believer required to “fulfill” the Law. He is brought into fellowship with God under a completely new and better covenant.

Moon aslo cant answer me on how his faith is any different than the demons:shrug:

I’ll leave you pondering on that one.

 

[BRB]

TThat’s quite Pharisaic (judgmental) of you to say.

MD … great sense of humor !!

Don’t you sometimes feel like you are arguing here with a bunch of Lawyers ?

 

[mikeledes]

You’ve got millions upon millions of professing Catholics out there dead in mortal sin, based on its own law(s), plus the Mosaic law it imposes upon its devotees.

The Mosaic Law? Last time I checked, the Catholic Chruch was not imposing kosher laws, circumcision, new moons, etc.

Tef., in the end I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ on my own. The value of my works will be revealed as through fire, and those of value will receive reward. But I myself have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, through the One who took my judgment in my stead. All in accordance with a substitutionary Sacrifice. Oh, but you don’t believe in that concept.

And in the end, Tef., you too will be standing alone. You’ll have no priest, Pope or prelate at your side. Divine grace, or the rejection of it, determines which judgment one will stand, Christ’s for works examined for reward, or the White Throne where one’s eternal estate has already been determned

What I find very interesting is that the Bible says we will be judged according to our deeds (i.e.you will reap what you sow) and yet whenever the Bible explictly discusses what that involves, it rarely talks about rewards:

John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; (those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Romans 2:5-8

5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Galatians 6:7-9

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **

All of these verses expleictly deal with judgement according to works, and none of them mention anything about rewards. And when we actually see this judgement in action, again there is no mention of rewards:

Matthew 25:31-46

** 31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44"Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45"Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.**"

Before this judgement seat, both the righteous * and * the wicked stand. Christ the Judge then lists the good deeds performed by the righteous. Then he hands out their rewards… oh … wait, what rewards? I’m not denying that God gives rewards, which can also be given to Christians while still on earth. But when the Bible says “judged according to works” and actually discusses the scenario, it makes no mention of rewards. It only talks about eternal life or eternal damnation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

As I said Michael, I am VERY familiar with ALL the issues. I am not “arminian” either.

I definitely know that you’re not a Historic/ Wesleyan Arminian. But once you believe that faith is a matter of free choice, the arguments against Classic Arminians apply to you as well and to Four Point Arminians (i.e. Arminians that believe in Eternal Security). Grace alone means grace alone. Once you add human choice as a factor, Calvinists believe you are undermining that principle.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

It’s amazing that even today, among some, Paul must continue to defend his apostleship.

Very perceptive. Protestants uniformly love Paul’s letters and theology.

Catholics on the otherhand, seem to experience angst accepting Paul as the equal of the other 11… plus Matthias.

 

[BRB]

**Romans 3:31 he writes, “do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” **

The harmony between these two verses lies in his teachings that by loving, we keep the law.
**
“Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law”** (Romans 13:8),

If Jesus fulfilled as you believe than how do Christians fulfill the Law by loveing one another?

**he commands, and again “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Galatians 5:14).

**Here he quotes Jesus, who gave us the two commandments that we must follow to love God, and to love our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), teaching that these two commandments encompass all that the Law and prophets had taught before. Paul explains the same thing in

Romans 13:9-10: “The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

James agrees with Paul, writing, “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing well” (2:8). If love is in keeping the commandments, this is why James writes that “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (2:17). One who loves will express that Love in works, and so a faith without works is a faith without Love, and a faith without Love is dead.

This is Paul’s message in a nutshell. Come on Catholics … lets get back on the target of Christian message, the spirit which gives life. The legalistic law has been removed like a monkey from our backs.

 

[Philthy]

Very perceptive. Protestants uniformly love Paul’s letters and theology.

Catholics on the otherhand, seem to experience angst accepting Paul as the equal of the other 11… plus Matthias.

What are you talking about? Where have you ever heard a Catholic suggest that Pauls letters are not equal to the rest of Scripture? Catholics accept the entirety of Pauls epistles as the very word of God without any angst. Unlike some Protestants, however, they do not elevate Paul’s teachings above those of the Gospels under the delusion that Christ’s words were not meant for Christians but were only meant for those “on the other side of the Cross”.

 

[moondweller]

Here again is one of several posts of mine that Moondweller has yet to favor with a response:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3949585&postcount=612

Love being patient and kind, I’ll post the link where he can easily find it.

Please show quotes from your “non-truncated” Bible where it literally states that one’s love is credited (reckoned) to him, by God, as righteousness?

 

[Philthy]

This is Paul’s message in a nutshell. Come on Catholics … lets get back on the target of Christian message, the spirit which gives life. The legalistic law has been removed like a monkey from our backs.

The legalistic law has been removed from our backs? Well, yes and no. Is there something about the 10 Commandments that you find burdensome? Do you wish that you could kill, steal, lie, fornicate and otherwise abuse your neighbor? I’d give that a little bit more thought in prayer if I were you.
What shall we say then, now that the legalistic law has been removed like a monkey from our backs? Shall we sin so that grace may abound? Of course not! We are now able to fulfil “the law and the prophets” through the merits of our Lord and Savior, who came so that we might not only have life, but have it abundantly. And of course there will be trials and temptations - we have not recieved the fullness of salvation yet. But the trials we experience are common on earth and no trial will overcome us unless we choose to allow it. God is faithful and will not let us be tempted beyond our strength, but with the trial He will provide a way for us to withstand it faithfully. Dont you dare presume that his grace is not sufficient for us. And dont be decieved: those who begin in the Spirit - having been transferred to the Kingdom of God by inheritance through Christ, the Son of God - who then subsequently squander that inheritance through unrepentant lying, adultering, murdering, etc will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I have no idea, I’m not a “Fundamentalist” as you define it on this thread. Maybe you could ask one in your neighborhood. Or ask your wife, wasn’t she involved in one of those churches you describe? You must only understand snide comments, nice fruits, allow me to communicate in that fashion for you then as Paul speaks in ways so the listener will hear and understand.

Personally, I have the Scriptures, they’re sufficient. The Catholic Church accepts your appreation for givng you the scripture that you firnd sufficient. A simple “thank you” would be more appropiate.
If you examine my posts I’ve answered them all. But you’re like the Pharisees who kept asking the blind man, in unbelief, exactly how he received his sight.Condemning it? pot calling the kettle black, you’ve got to be kidding. I merely asked the question about being a mortal sin. Why always so defensive? You seem extraordinarily bitter. The faithful defend Christ, you as a protestant are protesting Christ and his Church. We are defending Christ.

If one goes fishing rather than Sunday mass, wouldn’t that be in the eyes of your church a “mortal sin?” If he decides to sleep in because he stayed out late drinking (I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood(yet still ignore the grace that God extended to you to be in Christ’s Church) then I would say that’s full knowledge and consent. Wouldn’t you?

You’ve got millions upon millions of professing Catholics out there dead in mortal sin, based on its own law(s), plus the Mosaic law it imposes upon its devotees. Not to mention all the protestants that simple claim to be saved forgoing the final judgement.
It’s all very legalistic pot calling the kettle black again(by nature) by nature calvinism is legalistic no two ways about that, but what amazes me is that based on your many tirades that make up your posts, you seem to despise and mock any kind of disciplined lifestyle. Is this the fuel behind your extreme bitterness? the bias, bigotry and extreme bitterness of “saved christians” unwilling to even listen to “Truth”, the whole of Truth, when it is placed before them. It’s not bitterness on our part, it does sadden us to see those things come between 'saved christian" and God. The fuel for us is to do God’s will, which includes teaching the unlearned.

It is true that legalism creates a world of contradictions. Proof that Calvinism is only a theory one man’s theory and a very bad one at that. It puts itself under many laws, rules and regulations, but then creates all sorts of loopholes to live around them. Again more Calvinism. Very fascinating to examine. It is weird to see that people have comvinced themselves to believe things contrary to Christ’s faith. This was the very thing Jesus confronted the Pharisees about regarding their traditions (one of the favorite words of Catholicism).True not a favorite word in protestantism, but ultimately all things important to protestantism are tradition. Funny enough the call it a part of faith to avoid that Catholic term Tradion, but its still a tradition started by someone else.

Tef., in the end I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ on my own. Why will you be judged if you are already saved. Havn’t you already judge yourself to be rightous and saved.The value of my works will be revealed as through fire fire that doesn’t sound like heaven, what could it be?, and those of value will receive reward. But I myself have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, through the One who took my judgment in my stead. All in accordance with a substitutionary Sacrifice. Oh, but you don’t believe in that concept.

And in the end, Tef., you too will be standing alone. You’ll have no priest, Pope or prelate at your side. Divine grace, or the rejection of it, determines which judgment one will stand, Christ’s for works.Are you now saved by “works alone”? Are you not saved by Christ’s work, alone? WORKS ALONE Yes or no? it’s not in the bible, but either is faith alone. examined for reward, or the White Throne where one’s eternal estate has already been determned.

 

[Philthy]

Please show quotes from your “non-truncated” Bible where it literally states that one’s love is credited (reckoned) to him, by God, as righteousness?

This type of request is ridiculous from someone who can’t show us where the bible literally states that we are saved by “faith alone”. Especially when the bible does address “faith alone” and does so in negative terms.
It seems to be your best attempt at making a point, however, so I dont blame you for trying! It is silly though…

 

[BRB]

Is there something about the 10 Commandments that you find burdensome? Do you wish that you could kill, steal, lie, fornicate and otherwise abuse your neighbor?

Re-read Paul on difficulties he experienced keeping the Jewish laws. Christ released Paul from legalistic Judaism … and freed him via spirit of Christ.

Paul didn’t desire to break the Big 10. But, he did anyway. Once he became Christian he was freed from the penalty of his sin. He was not free to break the law with impunity, – but, he now was under grace of Christ and not Moses.

Christ gave us a new standard to follow … the Beatitudes. Paul picks up on these new Christian standards of morality … and teaches these rather than the OT Mosaic legalism of Pharases/Saducees.

Again … the OT law is good, but only to the degree it points up our sins. Christianity is not founded on legalism … but, grace.

Christians don’t desire to be lawbreakers … they are generally the most moral/forgiving persons in any given society. But, they think first of NT rules of Christ … rather than OT Mosaic code.

 

[guanophore]

If one goes fishing rather than Sunday mass, wouldn’t that be in the eyes of your church a “mortal sin?” If he decides to sleep in because he stayed out late drinking (I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood) then I would say that’s full knowledge and consent. Wouldn’t you?

I would think so, yes.

You’ve got millions upon millions of professing Catholics out there dead in mortal sin, based on its own law(s), plus the Mosaic law it imposes upon its devotees.

I agree that there are millions of professing Catholics out there in mortal sin. Mortal sin is not necessarily related to violation of canon law, however.

In no case is Mosaic law imposed upon Catholics. We are under grace, not law. The Law provides a guide to conscience, and when one fails in love, then one violates the Law of Christ, which is the rule of life for Christians.

It’s all very legalistic (by nature),

I am sure it seems that way to people who do not understand the liberty that we have in Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death. We have not been given license, to behave in an unloving manner. That is what we call “cheap grace”. But we have become empowere by the Spirit to live a love worthy of the calling to which we have been called. This may seem to you “legalistic” but to those living under the law of love, it is true freedom.

It is true that legalism creates a world of contradictions. It puts itself under many laws, rules and regulations, but then creates all sorts of loopholes to live around them. Very fascinating to examine. This was the very thing Jesus confronted the Pharisees about regarding their traditions (one of the favorite words of Catholicism).

Tradition is not a dirty word.

The value of my works will be revealed as through fire, and those of value will receive reward.

I thought you didn’t believe in purgatory.

 

[moondweller]

I definitely know that you’re not a Historic/ Wesleyan Arminian. But once you believe that faith is a matter of free choice, the arguments against Classic Arminians apply to you as well and to Four Point Arminians (i.e. Arminians that believe in Eternal Security).

None of it applies to me, Michael. I’m afraid you’re not going to be able to put this guy in any theological box. Not that I haven’t learned a great deal from both sides of the arguments. But I am not required to identify with any theological labels. When I stand before my Lord He will not ask me from which camp I have come.

I know you want to lasso me into discussion on those issues, but I find your asking me what it means to “believe in the Lord” to be of far weightier concern. To believe in Him is to accept, trust, embrace what He has promised through Christ and that He has the power to deliver, perfectly, according to His grace, that which He has promised.

This was demonstrated by Abraham when, based solely on God’s promise to him concerning Isaac, he believed he would receive his son back from the dead through resurrection (Heb. 11:17-19). He believed “in” the Lord way back in Gen. 15:6. He believed He would do what he promised and had the power to accomplish it.

Prior to Gen. 15:6 it was the Lord who always approached Abraham, and Abraham responded. But in Gen. 15:6 a phenomenal thing occurred: In faith, Abraham turned and approached the Lord, and the Lord responded.

Far more than Abraham we have this divine testimony given directly to us preserved in Holy Writ:Rom. 3:21 "But now apart from the law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and {continually} fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"Your next question will be what it means to believe “in” Christ. And my answer will not change. To accept, trust, embrace what is He said He came into this world to do (and not to do; Jn. 3:17; 12:46-48), and that He accomplished it perfectly. And upon that belief it is written that God Himself, in response, justifies the believer, “as a gift,” “by His grace,” through the power of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.