Commandments should not be followed ...

[Teflon93]

As I figured, Teflon93, you can’t deliver.

lol–so your qualifications would be, “None”.

Just about anyone you contact on this list should be more qualified than you are and offer helpful guidance to you.

 

[Teflon93]

Augustine had little, if any knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew.

And apparently that’s quite a bit more than you have!

 

[sandusky]

lol–so your qualifications would be, “None”.

Just about anyone you contact on this list should be more qualified than you are and offer helpful guidance to you.

You can’t deliver.

I believe when you perceive others do be doing what you are now doing, you refer to that as
"a dodge?" Isn’t that the term you used?

 

[ellammcg]

I’m wondering why the New Testament is so long. If OSAS is correct, couldn’t the entire thing be written up on a post-it and stuck on the back of the Old Testament? Such as:
"Read Old Testament. Have you, do you or will you violate any of the commandments? Believe Christ Jesus died for all of your sins. Go to heaven when you die. "
Wouldn’t that be easier and less likely to be misinterpreted by anyone? Just wondering…

 

[Teflon93]

You can’t deliver.

I believe when you perceive others do be doing what you are now doing, you refer to that as
"a dodge?" Isn’t that the term you used?

Calm down, Sandusky—you’re going to have an aneurysm.

Deep breaths…slow breaths…good.

If we study the pattern of your posts, we see the following:

1. Claim made ex cathedra Sandusky.
2. Sandusky’s authority and claim questioned.
3. Sandusky throws out red herring.

That’s what I call a dodge.

I simply pointed out that you don’t have any authority on this issue, since:

a) You don’t speak Greek.
b) You’re not a theologian.
c) You don’t have holy orders.

Keep in mind that what’s in question here is the Eucharistic language St Paul uses in 1 Corinthians. You seem to maintain that there is some earth-shattering difference between “drinking judgment upon oneself” and “drinking damnation upon oneself” if approaching the Eucharist in an unworthy fashion. You haven’t presented any compelling evidence for this difference; instead you’ve taken exception to my questioning your authority to pronounce on this issue some 2000 years after the fact despite you’re not having the minimal qualifications of a), b), or c) above.

Instead, you would like me to review the CVs of everyone whose pronounced on the matter within the Catholic Church for the past 2,000 years. That’s nice—but it doesn’t give you any more authority.

Which is the whole point.

There—you should be nice and calm now.

 

[sandusky]

Calm down, Sandusky—you’re going to have an aneurysm.

Deep breaths…slow breaths…good.

You can’t deliver.

Moondweller, when you get the chance, come watch Teflon93 dance.

 

[Teflon93]

You can’t deliver.

Moondweller, when you get the chance, come watch Teflon93 dance.

Is he allowed to watch me dance?

You’d better check to see which flavor Fundamentalist he is, lest you incite him to sin.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

I simply pointed out that you don’t have any authority on this issue…

Here’s what you said:

Absolutely—I’ll take the scholarship over centuries of men who are fluent in the languages and steeped in the theology of the Church over your Internet search any day. They’ve devoted their lives to this task, and have been scrutinized by their peers and the Pope in so doing.

Here’s my request in response to what you said:

List all of those centuries of men who were fluent in the Greek and the Hebrew, Teflon93, and then list all of the men who wrote anything, so that we can compare the number of those fluent in the Greek and Hebrew, with the number of those who were not.

With respect to my query concerning your assertion, it’s time for you, in the vernacular, to
“put up, or shut up.”

I say that in Love.

 

[sandusky]

Is he allowed to watch me dance?

You’d better check to see which flavor Fundamentalist he is, lest you incite him to sin.

I’m certain moondweller’s Church would encourage him to watch you dance around this, and I’m equally certain that moondweller will enjoy watching you dance around this.

 

[Teflon93]

Here’s what you said:Here’s my request in response to what you said:With respect to my query concerning your assertion, it’s time for you, in the vernacular, to
“put up, or shut up.”

I say that in Love.

Yes, you want the phone book for The Vatican, 33 A.D. - 2008.

Anyone can see how silly your request is, and how you continue to dodge the question as to your qualifications to interpret Scripture for our benefit.

How do you say “red herring” in Koine Greek, Sandusky?

Hebrew?

Aramaic?

 

[BRB]

Augustine had little, if any knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew.

Exactly…

Augustine was the great theoretician, Jerome the self-taught language scholar. Since Augustine relied on the fallible Jerome … error begot error.

 

[Teflon93]

I’m certain moondweller’s Church would encourage him to watch you dance around this, and I’m equally certain that moondweller will enjoy watching you dance around this.

Yes, my unwillingness to list the bona fides of every Catholic clergyman since Pentecost has really put me in a tough spot.

I should yield to your authority immediately, O great Sandusky, for you have clearly demonstrated yourself to be…waitaminute, what precisely have you demonstrated yourself to be?

Oh, right, I don’t have your list of qualifications, which are ready in hand.

What were they again?

Please list fluency in Hebrew, Greek, and theology.

 

[sandusky]

Yes, my unwillingness to list the bona fides of every Catholic clergyman since Pentecost has really put me in a tough spot.

Yes, it is a tough spot into which you’ve put yourself, Teflon93.

Perhaps in the future, you’ll no longer ape other Catholics, and you’ll be less specific in your sweeping generalities than they are in theirs; but maybe you won’t; I don’t know.

I say that in Love also.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

Anyone can see how silly your request is…

Need I remind you that the silliness of my request is in direct proportion to the silliness of
your assertion?

Let’s keep the spotlight on that, Teflon93—the silliness of your assertion.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thank you!

Those who want to be “justified by law” were never saved, never “justified as a gift through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). Fallen from grace means they rejected the gospel of divine grace through Christ Jesus that was delivered to them by Paul and instead embraced LAW, thereby severing themselves from Christ.

Are you saying that someone who was saved and baptized in a local, scriptural, new testament church IAW the prevailing doctrine (faith/trust alone in the work of Christ Jesus) and belief in that doctrine at that time, who then becomes Catholic and subscribes to their beliefs, is no longer saved or never was saved?

OK, as someone who has done exactly that - was saved and baptized in an independent, fundamental, KJV-only, premillennial Baptist Church and is now Catholic - I have lost the better part of my afternoon reading from this post (#399) to the end of the thread for MD’s answer to no avail. I’m really interested in MD’s answer to this question.

 

[mikeledes]

sandusky:
Were Teflon here he should accuse you of “ripping the verses from their context.”

Back up to Christ’s “shift” in v24:**John 5:24-27

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.**Christ clearly says that the believer ***”does not come into ***[krisis], that is, judgment, damnation, condemnation.”

Will the believer be in attendance at the judgment? He will be; however, ”he does not come into condemnation, but has passed out of death into life.”

Indeed, the word “judgement” in the Bible is used in more than one sense, as you point out in a later post. So when I say that a person will be judged, I don’t necessarily mean damnation. I’m using judged in the sense it is used in the following verses:

James 2:12

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 1:17

17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Those who are *in Christ * have passed from death into life because life is in the Son and those who are in the Son have life. Those who have abided in the Son will not suffer condemnation (John 15:6, Matt. 10:22, 2 Timothy 2:12, Rev. 2:11, 26), but will enjoy the consummation of that spiritual life they enjoyed through their incorporation into Christ while they were on earth:

1 John 2:24-25

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Now the righteous will certainly be in attendance at the Last Judgement, but their role will not be as mere spectators. As Matthew 25:34-37 indicates, they play a much more active role. This “judgement” passage clearly indicates what Jesus meant when He stated earlier in Matthew 16:27

**27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. **

It’s no coincidence that Jesus mentions the deeds of the righteous and the lack of good deeds of the wicked in his passage on the Last Judgement. Moreover, in this judgement, there is no mention of rewards. It’s a simple division between those who will enter eternal life and those who will enter eternal punishment:

Matthew 25:46

**46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." **

This scenario confirms what other passages in Scripture have said concerning judgement according to works:

Romans 2:5-10

…in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

IOW, his commonwealth, or citizenship prior to, and, at the time of the judgment, is in heaven (Php 3:20).25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.This further squares with Paul (Eph 2:5; Col 2:13), and Luke (Lk 15).26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.Earlier, in v21, Christ asserts that the Father has given Him the authority to give life to whom He wishes, as well as to execute judgment (Jn 5:21; cf 1 Cor 15:45).

Mt 25:34 squares with Paul’s teaching concerning the timing of the sheep’s selection by the Father, as well as Paul’s teaching concerning one of the purposes of the sheep’s selection.

Paul also teaches the real possibility of being called by the grace of God, receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a son and heir and yet deserting God, returning to bondage, being severed from Christ and falling from grace (Galatians 1:6, Galatians 3:3, Galatians 4:7-11, Galatians 5:1-4). There is also the real possibility of having one’s inheritance being taken away:

Revelation 22:19

**19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. **

The teaching of the two intersect in many places (man’s deadness in sin, the necessity of the Father’s drawing to Christ those whom He gave to the Son in eternity past; the necessity and sufficiency of grace and faith in God’s testimony concerning the Son cf Jn 1, 5, 6, 10; Rom 9, Eph 2, etc.) thus reinforcing Paul’s assertion that it’s Christ who taught Him the gospel.

I’ve said it before, and say again that the Lord certainly expects His saints to do good works; He also expects them to know that it’s not those good works which provide their entrance into His kingdom—but grace.

God does not only expects His saints to do good works, he requires them to do so:

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ** (Compare that with the reaping and sowing analogy of Galatians 6).

We also know that being in Christ does not automatically result in good deeds:

John 15:2

** 2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.**

2 Peter 1:5-9

5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

It’s no coincidence that immediately before discussing the judgement, Christ gives the following parable in Matthew 25:14-30, which is about judgement according to works:

14"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15"To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16"Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17"In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18"But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19"Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.
20"The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’
21"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
22"Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’
23"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
24"And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25’And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
26"But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27’Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28’Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The master (Christ) entrusted His slaves (Christians) with His possessions (spiritual gifts) and after a long time comes back (Second Coming) and settles accounts with them (judgement). Those who used their talents and produced a profit for their master (good deeds) entered their master’s joy (eternal life) and rewarded. The servant that did not use his gift and was thus inactive (i.e. did not bear fruit) for the benefit (glory) of his master, was excluded, had his talent taken away, and thrown into hell.

Apart from the unmerited grace of final perseverance (i.e. perseverance to the end), there are no merits and no rewards. Hence, without this grace, there is no entrance into His kingdom, regardless of how many good works you’ve done.

Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Moreover, Christ is a far greater Savior, than I am a sinner (Heb 7:25; cf 1 Cor 1:21).

Amen!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

Indeed, the word “judgement” in the Bible is used in more than one sense, as you point out in a later post. So when I say that a person will be judged, I don’t necessarily mean damnation. I’m using judged in the sense it is used in the following verses:

Those who are in Christ have passed from death into life because life is in the Son and those who are in the Son have life. Those who have abided in the Son will not suffer condemnation (John 15:6, Matt. 10:22, 2 Timothy 2:12, Rev. 2:11, 26), but will enjoy the consummation of that spiritual life they enjoyed through their incorporation into Christ while they were on earth:

It’s no coincidence that Jesus mentions the deeds of the righteous and the lack of good deeds of the wicked in his passage on the Last Judgement. Moreover, in this judgement, there is no mention of rewards. It’s a simple division between those who will enter eternal life and those who will enter eternal punishment:

This scenario confirms what other passages in Scripture have said concerning judgement according to works:

God does not only expects His saints to do good works, he requires them to do so:

We also know that being in Christ does not automatically result in good deeds:

I’m with you on those points.

Here’s where we part:

mikeledes:

Paul also teaches the real possibility of being called by the grace of God, receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a son and heir and yet deserting God, returning to bondage, being severed from Christ and falling from grace (Galatians 1:6, Galatians 3:3, Galatians 4:7-11, Galatians 5:1-4). There is also the real possibility of having one’s inheritance being taken away:

Mike, you know I disagree with you on that.

We’ve covered that ground many, many times before, certainly enough for me to understand your position, and for you to understand mine.

And, you should remember how our most recent venture into that territory concluded; therefore, I’m not going to revisit it with you, as I can think of no good reason to do so.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic church is the only, repeat, only church which can prove they were in exixtance from the time of Jesus. All the other religions have come from those spliting off and starting their own religions, because they dissagreed with the leaders of the Catholic Church.

Peter was the rock, upon which Jesus started Mother Church, Peter was the first Pope and the 11 Disciples were the first Bishops. The Pope is the leader of Mother church. God gives him divine grace to lead the entire church. Just like the US has the constitution and needs the Supreme Court to interpet the laws, the Bible needs a Supreme Being (The Pope and his Cardinals) to correctly interpet Word of God.

Every religion which is splintered off of the One Catholic and Apostolic Church is heading down the wrong roads. We all want to have Eternal Life in Heaven so we must all seek the truth and not try to misinterpet the word. His Will be done, not ours.
Wild Bill

Welcome to CAF Wild Bill. I just want to note that you did not respond to the topic in any way at all. However, thank you for sharing.

 

[guanophore]

Teflon93 told me it was.

Well now, since you have made it clear that you have no respect for his point of view, and that you don’t even consider him a Christian, how is that relevant?

FYI, Paul first wrote that (Rom 4:23; 15:4; 1 Cor 10:11).
guanophore, the NT is not one of the Letter (Law), but of the Spirit.

Yes, I know this. However, Paul is clear that the Spirit of the Law is the Law of Christ (love). To the extent that we fail in love toward God and one another, we fall short.

The Spirit convicts the world ”concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment” (Jn 16:8)

Indeed, and one of the ways that the Spirit does this is through the unchanging witness of God’s revelation of HImself from the beginning of creation until now. His moral precepts for man have not changed.
sandusky;3957948:

the Spirit is given to the believer as an anointing to teach the believer (Jn 14:16; 1 Jn 2:20, 27), and so on.

Are you suggesting that one should disregard the Holy Writings, and “each one do what is right in his own eyes”?

The NT is a ministry of the Spirit, and not the Letter (2 Cor 3:4-11 linger on that passage for as long as it takes you to understand, guanophore).

Do you think that it was not the same Spirit that engraved the stones, as the one that is shed abroad in our hearts? The Spirit does not say one thing, then change His tune, does He?

I completely understand the Catholic view of the sacraments (that’s one of the many reasons I’m no longer Catholic).

Well, I think not, but that is a matter from another thread. I understand that you did not experience the grace of God sacramentally, but that you did outside of the sacraments and that this experience was a powerful one that changed your life.

If you believe that the young man had successfully kept all of the commandments up to the moment in which he declared that he had, there’s nothing I can say that would, in any way, be meaningful to you concerning anything having to do with the law.

LOL. Well, I do not find such a position entirely defensible either. However, the text does not indicate otherwise. Unlike the Jew who went to temple and “justified himself” praying, this man was not referred to as such. I just note that Jesus told him (accruately in my view) that if he kept the commandments, he would have eternal life. The young man probably kept them as much as he believed he could. As a prosperous Jew of his day, he would have believed that his wealth was a blessing from God, and was a sign of his favor in the sight of God. Jesus challenged him to let go of this, and follow. I wonder if he ever did?

In order for something to be “rescinded,” it must have been “given and accepted” in the first place; however, thank you for stringing all of those words together in your post.

LOL. I think you are misunderstanding me here. A gift is put out for someone. That someone for whom it was given, who may have even asked for it, leaves it by the side of the road. The giver does not come and take it back, but waits for the intended recipient to claim it. God does not “rescind” HIs gifts, even if those for whom they are intended spurn them.

In fact, I believe exactly what the apostles, and the Lord taught concerning one’s freedom in coming to Christ.

What Christ taught is that while everyone is “free”

to come to Him, no one, in himself “has the ability to do so” (Jn 6:37, 44, 65). That’s because they’re dead (Eph 2; Col 2).

So we see that not only can’t dead man dance, they also can’t come to Christ.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of “dead” here. Obviously, these people have life to the extent that they are able move, and breathe, and make decisions. We are all under a death sentence due to original sin, not to mention our personal sins.However God does not ask us to do things that are not possible for us. He gives us sufficient grace so that we can choose between right and wrong.

You would do well to consider that in light of your idea of “prevenient grace”—to paraphrase Monty Python, a nod’s as good as a wink to a dead man

—so too is prevenient grace.

I guess I cannot understand this. You maintain that a person is regeneration before they choose, and that is what makes them able to choose. That is what Catholics call prevenient grace. I cannot see the difference, at that point. Granted, there are differences later…

Without being alive, nothing avails a dead man; once God regenerates him, God justifies him; and those justified by God, are also glorified by God (Rom 8:30).

People cannot be regenerated or justified unless grace meets with faith. But, that is also the subject of another thread.

I will agree, however, getting back to the topic, that no amount of commandment keeping will avail one if he is not in a state of grace. So, if the rich young ruler kept all the commandments to the best of his understanding, yet lacked faith in Christ (as seems to be the case) what benefit would it give him?