Commandments should not be followed ...

[sandusky]

BRB:

The Gospels are replete with scriptures dealing with salvation assurance. Paul, esp. John give out the keys … and Christ told his 12 ‘exactly’ how they could have assurance.

Yes it is, and here is a list of some of them:

by Nathan PitchfordPerseverance of the Saints,

What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.

Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.

Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.

Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

(Edited)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #919)

However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to revisit 1 Corinthians 11:32

**32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. **

As stated earlier, the “hina” clause (i.e. so that) expresses the purpose of the antecedent clause. Now, it has been argued that God disciplines us, even to the point of taking our life, so that we do not fall from salvation. I agree, this is certainly one of the major reasons why God chastens us. However, as I stated, this notion contradicts the the fundamental beliefs of Calvinists and OSAS free will Protestants. First of all, if according to Calvinism, grace is irresistible and regeneration irrevocably sets a person on their spiritual course (perseverance of the saints), then there is no possibility of reversal. The fundamental orientation of the human will had been changed and it cannot be reversed. Therefore, that God chastens or uses warnings to keep Christians on the right track makes no sense because irresistible grace and regeneration makes this absolutely superfluous and unncessary. There is no possibility of turning away from the right path and fallling into condemnation. So why does he need to chasten or give warnings?

Secondly, if we are imputed the perfect righteousness of Christ in a once in a lifetime justification, then that imputation should be sufficient to ensure that we will not be condemned with the world. And if that imputation cannot be undone by any act, then there is absolutely no possibility of being condemned with the world, thus making any chastening or warnings absolutely unnecessary and without purpose. And yet that is the express purpose given by Paul. So if God must supplement the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness with divine chastening and warnings, then that means that this imputation is not sufficient to prevent condemnation. God must prevent the human will from undoing His work by using “carrots” and even the “stick.” If this imputation is not sufficient to prevent condemnation, then how can it be perfect as understood by Protestants. If Paul believed that our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified - thus making it impossible for any sinful act to cause loss of salvation - then he is contradicting himself when he says that God chastens so that we are not condemned with the world when he knows that this condemnation is absolutely impossible.

Thirdly, if eternal life means that the life we receive can never be lost since that is a contradiction of the meaning of eternal, then why is it necessary for God to chasten so that we are not condemned with the world? Having eternal life is inherently
sufficient in preventing condemnation and keeping Christians on the right track. And if Paul understood having eternal life the same way that eternal security Protestants understand it, then isn’t he contradicting himself when he says that God uses divine chastening to prevent condemnation, especially when he knows that this is impossible and that having eternal life and losing it is a logical contradiction?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

My hope is in God and in His promises. Yes, righteousness does not have its origin in man, it comes from God and there is no effort or work that can free us from the bondage of sin and death and make us righteous before God. Everything is grace. By the grace and mercy of God, we have the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of faith, hope, and love. By the grace and mercy of God we are incorporated into Christ and this incorporation makes our works good and pleasing to him because they are rooted in in faith working through love. We cannot boast before God because of our good works because it is God that gives us the ability to perform them

This reminds me of the warning God gave to the people of Israel regarding prosperity:

Those who rely on the Lord humbly recognize their dependance on Him and do not glory in their own works, but humbly work for the glory of God. And if they do not trust Him, if they do not have their faith and hope in Him, then their works are useless for…

Now we turn to the context of 1 Timothy 6:17-18. Yes, Paul is telling the rich not to put their trust on riches - a constant theme in the Bible - and reminding them that they need to put their trust in the one who gives them those riches and provides for their physical needs and that they must use these riches for the greater glory of God.

However, that still does not take away from what he said regarding good works and the life that is truly life. Nor does that take away the fact that Paul uses the “hina” clause, connecting the previous clause on works with the clause on eternal life:

The “hina” clause states the purpose of the antecedent clause.

The dispute underlying your post should be restated: Is a man justified by faith alone, or, do his works justify him even to the attainment of eternal life?

What you say in the initial “blue” paragraph above stands in contrast to this statement
in the [CCC:]](Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2)2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.Your statement does not square with the CCC, IMO. I’ve seen your language acquire a definite Calvinist flavor over the last year, however, I don’t buy it because as has been said so often, the CCC is the compendium of church teaching, and its language is decidedly more Catholic than yours.

The bottom line in the argument for me is, “do works justify the believer?”

Obviously they do according to the CCC. The two red words in the citation above are identical in meaning for the Catholic. Furthermore, the final statement sums up: the Catholic, for himself merits the attainment of eternal life.

Between that statement, and Trents on Jusitification, I conclude that you are “meriting merit,” or “meriting grace” which is oxymoronic.

Concerning 1 Tim 6:17-19, I never agree with your use of scripture. The major point of constraint placed upon you in the realm of interpretation is that your interpretation must agree with RC teaching, and it always does (however, that doesn’t mean your interpretation is valid).

To begin with, the context of the passage is not salvation.

Moving to the “hina.”so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.The initial instruction is to the rich in the church not to be conceited or trust in those earthly riches. He’s not instructing them to divest themselves of those riches, or that they shouldn’t enjoy them, but rather, through the godly use of them, to continue storing treasure on the good foundation of their works. They already have eternal life, Paul’s urging that they be instructed to continue storing treasure for the future [kingdom].

“…Take hold of life,” is a metaphor. In using riches wisely, those Timothy is to instruct will "take hold of that which is life indeed.”

That’s what the future kingdom is all about—stewardship, selflessness, love—he’s saying store for it now by living as if you’re in it now.

It’s in that sense that Paul’s saying “take hold of life indeed”—grasp the reality of the future now by putting its principles into practice now.

He’s by no means saying that ones works earn the “currency” of justification necessary to enter the kingdom—that’s freely given.

If eternal life is on the basis of works, it’s no longer grace, but what’s owed.

Does God owe you eternal life?

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

I would like to revisit 1 Corinthians 11:32

32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

However, as I stated, this notion contradicts the the fundamental beliefs of Calvinists and OSAS free will Protestants. First of all, if according to Calvinism, grace is irresistible and regeneration irrevocably sets a person on their spiritual course (perseverance of the saints), then there is no possibility of reversal. The fundamental orientation of the human will had been changed and it cannot be reversed. Therefore, that God chastens or uses warnings to keep Christians on the right track makes no sense because irresistible grace and regeneration makes this absolutely superfluous and unncessary. There is no possibility of turning away from the right path and fallling into condemnation. So why does he need to chasten or give warnings?

Secondly, if we are imputed the perfect righteousness of Christ in a once in a lifetime justification, then that imputation should be sufficient to ensure that we will not be condemned with the world. And if that imputation cannot be undone by any act, then there is absolutely no possibility of being condemned with the world, thus making any chastening or warnings absolutely unnecessary and without purpose. And yet that is the express purpose given by Paul. So if God must supplement the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness with divine chastening and warnings, then that means that this imputation is not sufficient to prevent condemnation. God must prevent the human will from undoing His work by using “carrots” and even the “stick.” If this imputation is not sufficient to prevent condemnation, then how can it be perfect as understood by Protestants. If Paul believed that our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified - thus making it impossible for any sinful act to cause loss of salvation - then he is contradicting himself when he says that God chastens so that we are not condemned with the world when he knows that this condemnation is absolutely impossible.

Thirdly, if eternal life means that the life we receive can never be lost since that is a contradiction of the meaning of eternal, then why is it necessary for God to chasten so that we are not condemned with the world? Having eternal life is inherently
sufficient in preventing condemnation and keeping Christians on the right track. And if Paul understood having eternal life the same way that eternal security Protestants understand it, then isn’t he contradicting himself when he says that God uses divine chastening to prevent condemnation, especially when he knows that this is impossible and that having eternal life and losing it is a logical contradiction?

All of your thoughts above are recrementitious ruminations compared to the indispensable truth stated in the opening of your post above, which opening I now post:

mikeledes:

As stated earlier, the “hina” clause (i.e. so that) expresses the purpose of the antecedent clause. Now, it has been argued that God disciplines us, even to the point of taking our life, so that we do not fall from salvation. I agree, this is certainly one of the major reasons why God chastens us.

(We’ve covered the recrementitious ruminations many times as well, you and me.)

 

[moondweller]

It is both a qualitative and quantitative description of the nature of life in Christ.

Actually, “eternal” a description (adjective) of the LIFE gifted the believer upon faith in Christ, being now “in” the resurrected Christ who Himself was raised to an indestructible life (Heb. 7:16).mê apolêtai all echê zôên aiônion
(may not perish by have LIFE everlasting, Jn. 3:16)In Greek the word aiônion means perpetual. If something is “perpetual” it doesn’t cease. By definition it cannot. “The wages of sin is death, BUT the free gift of God is zôê aiônios” (perpetual life, life everlasting). The gift God gives freely upon belief in Christ is eternal, perpetual, everlasting. There is no connotation of it being pending at all. It is His to give, and* freely* He gives it.

Same way its given to you! Why does the fact that it’s eternal effect whether it can be entered into or exited out of? If “eternal life” can be “entered” why can it not be “exited”?

Because then it wouldn’t be “zôên aiônion,” would it???

And remember - no matter what we do we receive “eternity” after this life. Eternal life with Christ or eternal separation.

So? Rom 5:15 “But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.”

It is not the quantity that we are choosing, rather the quality of our afterlife.

You’re not choosing anything. It’s divinely GIFTED upon belief in Christ.John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."And the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

During this life we can enter and exit qualitative “eternal life” with Christ - once we die, however, there is only quantitative eternity: heaven or hell.

The true believer doesn’t enter or exit eternal life “with Christ,” but he is freely GIFTED the life of the resurrected Christ, being now "in Him."Rom 5:17 "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned (as king) through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

I guess I dont see the part that says we cant “lose” the Son (through choosing self over God) and thereby forfeit the “eternal life” which is conditional upon being one who “has the Son”.

That’s because it’s not an option built into the gift. The gift, upon belief, is innately eternal, perpetual, everlasting.

What does seem also to be perpetual is your disbelief that God has the power to bestow such an awesome gift, by grace alone, upon the undeserving, through faith alone. But that, Phil, is the gospel. That God sent His Son into this world that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have "zôên aiônion"John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.Here’s Christ’s own definition of eternal life:John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.IOW, the LIFE which the believer receives, giftwise, is one of never ceasing to know the Father and the Son. The relationship is perpetual, it will never cease. LIFE is knowing the Father and the Son; ETERNAL is the duration of the relationship. It’s stated that he who believes HAS eternal life. It’s not a revolving door relationship as you describe. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Take a look at this - from the same John. Now forgive me for being oversimplistic, but doesnt Christ’s saying “remain” mean that it is possible to NOT remain in Him?

Wrong context, Phil. He’s talking to those who are already His, whom He chose out of this world for ministry. The context is bearing fruit in their coming ministry as Apostles. He’s the vine, the source and power of their ministry, they’re the branches which bear fruit. In order for them to bear fruit they must abide in Him. This is not a salvation verse. Context, always context, Phil.

Oh boy - its getting uglier! Fire, burning…hmmm what could that be a reference to? Could it be…hell?

No.

I think it is!

I think it isn’t. The CONTEXT is fruit bearing, not attaining salvation.

Bring it on home! The “commands” must be obeyed!

He states nothing about the Mosaic Law here. Obeying His commands just as He obeyed His Father’s is not referring to the Decalogue but as the Father personally guided His earthly ministry, so He will personally guide theirs - as they abide in Him (if we used your interpretation then even Christ was threatened with hellfire). For example:John 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment {as to} what to say and what to speak.

John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.They too were to abide in Him to bear fruit.

You legalists interpret everything as salvific and leading to damnation. Unless you allow the gospel of grace to grasp you you’ll never come to understand God’s LOVE. To you He’ll always be a taskmaster. And you’ll always be the child the Father put in charge of a tutor, never knowing that the “fulness of time” has come for the “adoption as sons” (Gal. 4:1-6).

 

[moondweller]

That is mighty prescriptive. With what authority have you been invested to make such dogmatic statements, Moondweller?

Tef., do you possess eternal life right now? If so, on what grounds? If not? Why not?

 

[Teflon93]

No! You must jettison that cargo.

That is mighty prescriptive. With what authority have you been invested to make such dogmatic statements, Moondweller?

Tef., do you possess eternal life right now? If so, on what grounds? If not? Why not?

Once again, Moondweller simply ignores questions he cannot answer. Eternal insecurity, if you ask me.

As for your question, Moondweller, I will answer it despite your dancing and dodging of mine.

As the Bible says, I am saved:

Romans 8:24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I am being saved:

1 Corinthians 1:8: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:15: For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

I hope that I will be saved:

1 Corinthians 3:

12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14: If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Romans 5:

9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, as St Paul told us to do:

Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

with confidence in the promises of the Lord:

Romans 5:2: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

2 Timothy 2:

11: It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Galatians 3:

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29: And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is your answer, Moondweller, now where is mine?

And a bonus question, asked previously:

How do you not consider me your brother considering that I have been baptized into Christ and therefore am of Abraham’s seed, even as you are?

 

[Philthy]

MD:

In Greek the word aiônion means perpetual. If something is “perpetual” it doesn’t cease. By definition it cannot. “The wages of sin is death, BUT the free gift of God is zôê aiônios” (perpetual life, life everlasting). The gift God gives freely upon belief in Christ is eternal, perpetual, everlasting. There is no connotation of it being pending at all. It is His to give, and* freely* He gives it.Because then it wouldn’t be “zôên aiônion,” would it???So?

ISTM that you continue to confuse the nature of eternal life with our ability to participate in it. There is quite a difference between claiming eternal life is eternal and claiming that our participation in it is necessarily eternal.

And the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).The true believer doesn’t enter or exit eternal life “with Christ,” but he is freely GIFTED the life of the resurrected Christ, being now “in Him.”

In God’s infinite wisdom it remains a gift that can be rejected.

Here’s Christ’s own definition of eternal life: John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.IOW, the LIFE which the believer receives, giftwise, is one of never ceasing to know the Father and the Son. The relationship is perpetual, it will never cease. LIFE is knowing the Father and the Son; ETERNAL is the duration of the relationship.

Actually, there is nothing in that verse which affirms your concept of “never ceasing” or perpetual - you added that. OTOH, it does affirm my concept of a QUALITATIVE nature to eternal life: the quality of knowing God.

The CONTEXT is fruit bearing, not attaining salvation.

You still have yet to offer an explanation as to why so much emphasis was placed upon the behavior of Christians. If they have been gifted with the fullness of eternal life through faith alone
and their choices are irrelevent, then why all the warnings about behavior??? Im waiting patiently for the simple answer you dont seem to have.

 

[guanophore]

I wouldn’t of believed it either, until I recently saw posts here on CAF from Catholics in this regard. Apparently they base their belief on Baltimore CC … where it says “No one can be saved outside of Catholic Church”. There is a recent thread [within last month] entiled just this.

Apparently, the Church has modified its position more recently … and now allows for exceptions to the rule.

No,

Cases where people have never heard of Christ, the Catholic Church, or thru ignorance. The Church also now allows that Protestants who have had Tinitarian baptism and remain faithful to Christ to the end … can be saved outside the Church Universal.

The only thing that has changed is our modern understanding of the Teaching.

 

[moondweller]

Once again, Moondweller simply ignores questions he cannot answer. Eternal insecurity, if you ask me.

As for your question, Moondweller, I will answer it despite your dancing and dodging of mine.

As the Bible says, I am saved:

A canned (contradictory) answer. But I asked if you possess eternal life right now. Since you must be saved yet in the future I guess that answers my question.

How do you not consider me your brother considering that I have been baptized into Christ and therefore am of Abraham’s seed, even as you are?

Where does it say one is Abraham’s seed through baptism?

 

[Teflon93]

A canned (contradictory) answer.

Hardly—a correct answer. We have seen in this thread how you have utterly failed to account for Scripture which clearly contradicts your theology. We have seen how you have refused time and again to articulate which theological tradition you adhere to (see JustAServant’s posts).

We also see that you do not know what various English words mean. Thus you present “canned” as a synonym for “contradictory”, apparently without any thought as to what these words mean, much less what your sentence means.

But I asked if you possess eternal life right now. Since you must be saved yet in the future I guess that answers my question.Where does it say one is Abraham’s seed through baptism?

I have eternal life now, being baptized in Christ and in communion with his Church. If I were to die today, I am confident I would hear those words from the Savior I long to hear.

I cannot predict the future, nor can you. Perhaps tomorrow I will not resist the sins St Paul warned us about and thus violate the Commandments given us by God, thus refusing the gift of eternal life. In which case, I can only hope I will repent and return to full communion with the Body of Christ, and thus return to having eternal life. It is the life which is eternal, not our possession of it.

As for the latter, I just posted the passage wherein St Paul clearly states this. It’s the last passage in my previous post.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

It is the life which is eternal, not our possession of it.

From the Catholic perspective, I agree—you must earn the right to keep the gift (there’s that oxymoron again)—your statement indicates that you’re counting on your ability to keep the gift. If that’s the case, the duration of your possession of the gift is very questionable.**John 10:25-30

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

30 “I and the Father are one.” **[in context, they are one in purpose with respect to the disposition of the sheep—they will never perish].Put your confidence in God alone.

 

[Teflon93]

From the Catholic perspective, I agree—you must earn the right to keep the gift (there’s that oxymoron again)—your statement indicates that you’re counting on your ability to keep the gift. If that’s the case, the duration of your possession of the gift is very questionable.John 10:25-30

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

30 “I and the Father are one.” [in context, they are one in purpose with respect to the disposition of the sheep—they will never perish].Put your confidence in God alone.

A sheep which leaves the flock is no longer assured of getting safely where the shepherd leads.

A very important point for you to note, Sandusky.

 

[sandusky]

A sheep which leaves the flock is no longer assured of getting safely where the shepherd leads.

A very important point for you to note, Sandusky.

(Edited)

"My will and freedom is greater than, and more important than, and able to thwart the will of the Creator of all things who says the sheep ’will never perish.’ "

A thought for your consideration, Teflon.**Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.**Are you any "other created thing," Teflon, or does that description not apply to you?

 

[Teflon93]

(Edited)

A thought for your consideration, Teflon.Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Are you any "other created thing," Teflon, or does that description not apply to you?

It does not. God loves us. That is not in question. What is in question is whether we love God enough to obey Him, and to persist to the very end in so doing.

Obeying God and loving one another is how we are to be judged:

Matthew 19:

16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do,** that I may have eternal life**?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said,** Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **

John 6:

51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him**.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Provided one approach the Eucharist worthily, as St Paul notes:

1 Corinthians 11:

23: For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25: After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26: For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27: **Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28: But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29: For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30: For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. **

Matthew 25:
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30:** And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth**.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: **
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.**
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, **Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. **
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 13:

34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Am I your brother, Sandusky? Do you love me?

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

God loves us. That is not in question. What is in question is whether we love God enough to obey Him, and to persist to the very end in so doing.

You want to "earn the gift," rather than freely take it.

The true question is whether or not He loves His sheep enough so that ”they will never perish.” He’s answered that question in Jn 10; do you believe Him?

Teflon93:

Obeying God and loving one another is how we are to be judged:

You want to "earn the gift,” rather than freely take it.

The believer was judged when he believed, and declared “not guilty,” and, at that time he was given eternal life, and is therefore, one of Christ’s sheep—not one of Christ’s sheep will ever perish.

What will be judged with respect to the believer is his works.

What will not be judged is his already-determined-adoptive-sonship in Christ.

Teflon93:

Am I your brother, Sandusky? Do you love me?

I’ve answered that for you Teflon. Have you forgotten?

 

[guanophore]

Unless the Catholic Church [and its members] believe in salvation security in Christ … Protestant teachings offer the only valid Pauline message of Christ to the world.

This is very well said. The Catholic Church teaches the Christian message. Many protestant communities do, indeed, have a “Pauline message” that is a trucated form of Christianity as taught by the Apostles, and is based largely, or solely on the writings of Paul, ignoring or rationalizing elements of the NT that contradict the “Pauline message”. Very insidious.

 

[guanophore]

However, you were shopping at the time you decided to adhere to your church’s teachings; that adherence has been dubbed by James White as sola ecclesia—church alone.

White makes this statement: the Roman church claims that it has both written, and defined the canon of scripture, and it has spoken and defined what is oral tradition as well; moreover, that church claims, for itself, the right of sole determiner of what both scripture and tradition means; therefore, the church claims an authority that is greater than both Scripture, and Tradition.

He then poses this question: That being the case, how can your church logically be subservient to the things she defines?

Actually, this has nothing to do with the Roman Rite of the Church. This is Apostolic Teaching, and is shared by all the Catholic Church, not only the Latin. The authority of the Church rests in her head, which is Christ. Yes, He is greater than both Scripture and Tradition.

How can the church NOT be subservient to Him?

 

[guanophore]

It is at the apostle’s urging that I test the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-6). Again, were I you, I would wonder why your church teaches that we are “separated brethren” when we hold such dissimilar positions in more things than this particular thread topic, and one you mention above?

I do not wonder. Jesus instructed the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them. Therefore, all those who are disciples of Christ and are validly baptized are members of His body.

There is only ONE BODY, and only ONE CHURCH, therefore, all who are members of Christ are members of the ONE BODY.

We are separated through sin, ignorance, etc.