Commandments should not be followed ...

[moondweller]

ISTM that you continue to confuse the nature of eternal life with our ability to participate in it. There is quite a difference between claiming eternal life is eternal and claiming that our participation in it is necessarily eternal.

I don’t “claim” eternal life is eternal, but by the fact that it’s called “eternal” innately makes it eternal - everlasting, perpetual. One who is gifted life in the resurrected Christ, by definition, participates in it eternally, since He was raised never to die again.

In God’s infinite wisdom it remains a gift that can be rejected.

That’s not God’s “infinite wisdom,” that’s your limited estimation of Him. Where is the caveat, “if he doesn’t reject it” added to “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life?”

Actually, there is nothing in that verse which affirms your concept of “never ceasing” or perpetual - you added that.

I added nothing. “This is eternal life….” It would mean the same if He’d said, “This is life eternal…” He could have just said, “This is life…,” (compared to being dead to God in trespasses and sins): knowing the Father and the Son. But knowing the Father and the Son is not only life (in opposition to death), but life eternal. This LIFE is eternal (everlasting) being “in the Son”; and is gifted to the one who believes; and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. If this gifted life is revocable then by definition it was never truly eternal. Either God is deceived (or deceptive), or those who teach such nonsense are.

You still have yet to offer an explanation as to why so much emphasis was placed upon the behavior of Christians. If they have been gifted with the fullness of eternal life through faith alone
and their choices are irrelevent, then why all the warnings about behavior??? Im waiting patiently for the simple answer you dont seem to have.

Why do you stress proper behavior with your own offspring (assuming you have them). So that they (offspring) at some determined, future event might officially BECOME your “children?” Or do you stress discipline and proper behavior because they ARE your children? And as your children, when stressing discipline and proper behavior, do you attach the threat of abandonment, disownment and their destruction by fire when you disapprove of their behavior? Is that why Catholics stress the idea of the motherhood of Mary, because they have this convoluted concept of the Fatherhood of God?

 

[guanophore]

Is this your personal belief … or that of the Cath. Church ?

What is written in the NT reflects the belief of the Catholic Church, because all of the authors were Catholic. What do you make of the verse that says the lampstand will be taken away?

Christ works unceasingly to maintain his flock of disciples.

Amen!

Christ would never withdraw his salvation gift to a believer. Yes, salvation can be lost … so the Gospels teach. But, its always our deliberate choice to withdraw from faith in Christ. Any gift can be returned. Afterall, salvation is not earned !!! Thus, can we later reject and lose the gift ? Yes.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Even those from whom Christ is warning the lampstand will be removed are urged to repent quickly to prevent this.

In these cases … salvation assurance is not desired by those individuals. It’s referred to by Paul as making ‘shipwreck of our faith’. Did Luther do this ? Catholics say yes … Protestants no.

Even God can save people from a shipwreck.!

But, any Catholic disciple should be assurred of their salvation … on basis of living presence of H.S. within. If someone doesn’t have assurance of salvation … they have probably grieved the H.S. and can no longer feel presence of Trinity. This is not only clear teaching of Christ, but also Paul, and especially John.

None of the Apostles taught that we should go on our “feelings”. But they did teach criteria by which we can know that we are in a state of grace.

 

[Philthy]

A canned (contradictory) answer.

Uhh, I think he basically just quoted Scripture, how can you condemn him for that?

But I asked if you possess

 

[Teflon93]

You want to "earn the gift," rather than freely take it.

Ahh, but the Church teaches it cannot be earned, but only merited to the extent that Christ has promised if we do as he bids us do in the rather inconvenient passages I quoted (and which you ignored).

If I tell my son, “Get an A in Math and I will give you $50”, has he earned $50? He hasn’t generated $50 worth of economic value, surely. I will be out $50 which had to be generated out of my own economic activity. And yet, because I have promised to give him that which he has no power to earn himself, he will have $50 if he gets that A in Math. If he gets a D in Math, he will not get $50. Your claim is that he gets the $50 no matter what he does; Christ indicates differently. Listen to Christ.

The true question is whether or not He loves His sheep enough so that ”they will never perish.” He’s answered that question in Jn 10; do you believe Him?

We are only His sheep if we persist in the fold, by following the shepherd:

John 10:

1: Verily, verily, I say unto you, **He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber**.

2: But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3: To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4: And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5: And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6: This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7: Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8: All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11: I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12: But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13: The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14: I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15: As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If sheep cannot get lost, you must explain this:

Matthew 10:

6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

They were his, but as of that time were lost. Some remain lost to this day.

You want to "earn the gift,” rather than freely take it.

Dispensed with above.

The believer was judged when he believed, and declared “not guilty,” and, at that time he was given eternal life, and is therefore, one of Christ’s sheep—not one of Christ’s sheep will ever perish.

So long as they remain within the Body of Christ. I understand why it is so important for you to believe such a thing, but as we see above, and as you continue to ignore, too much of Scripture warns against becoming a lost sheep to presume such a thing. You are simply stating a tautology, since Christ’s sheep ultimately are the saints, who persevere to the end. It is their perseverence in responding to Christ’s call which makes them so.

Read Paul, and ask yourself why 1 Corinthians was necessary or useful given your false doctrine of eternal security, which itself doesn’t appear until the 16th century.

What will be judged with respect to the believer is his works.

What will not be judged is his already-determined-adoptive-sonship in Christ.

Yes, as Matthew 25 shows, although one must first be adopted into the covenantal family of Christ through baptism before one may be imbued with grace and the good works which stem from the intersection of grace and free will. The servant was a servant before the master provided him with talents. The wicked servant did nothing with the talents provided to him, and was cast into outer darkness.

I’ve answered that for you Teflon. Have you forgotten?

I must have missed that—would you care to repeat it for me, brother?

 

[moondweller]

Hardly—a correct answer. We have seen in this thread how you have utterly failed to account for Scripture which clearly contradicts your theology. We have seen how you have refused time and again to articulate which theological tradition you adhere to (see JustAServant’s posts).

I’ve been VERY consistent with my theology. And I’ve proven time and again that yours is not. And I have articulated my theology, which is not based on “tradition” but divine, written revelation.

We also see that you do not know what various English words mean. Thus you present “canned” as a synonym for “contradictory”, apparently without any thought as to what these words mean, much less what your sentence means.

Do you know why a parenthesis is used in a sentence?

I have eternal life now, being baptized in Christ and in communion with his Church. If I were to die today, I am confident I would hear those words from the Savior I long to hear.

Where is it taught that eternal life is through baptism? Where is it taught in Scripture that it’s based on “communion with His Church?” I would assume you’re defining the word “communion” as “in agreement,” and “His Church” as the hierarchy of the RCC. Where is this doctrine, in respect to eternal life, taught in Scripture?"*Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.*How do you know, for certain (rather than by subjective confidence) that if you die today you’ll hear “the Savior’s” words? And since you have this subjective confidence for only the day (actually, your “confidence” can only be for the minute moment, everything else must be considered future), then you do not believe you have eternal life.

Perhaps tomorrow I will not resist the sins St Paul warned us about and thus violate the Commandments given us by God, thus refusing the gift of eternal life.

So then your ultimate salvation is based on Law (Commandment) keeping, rather than by grace through faith according to promise, thereby proving to be a son of Hagar. As for “refusing the gift of eternal life” by sinning, what you’re actually saying is the gift is refused you (rescinded) when sinning. Hence, it is neither gifted nor eternal.

I can only hope I will repent and return to full communion with the Body of Christ, and thus return to having eternal life.

“Return to having eternal life,” is an oxymoron.

It is the life which is eternal, not our possession of it.

And you have the pride and arrogance to accuse me of not knowing what words mean?

 

[Teflon93]

I’ve been VERY consistent with my theology. And I’ve proven time and again that yours is not.

You’ve proven that your theology relies upon ignoring all Scripture in contradiction of it.

And I have articulated my theology, which is not based on “tradition” but divine, written revelation.

Unfortunately for you, the divine, written revelation was Tradition prior to being written down. Deeds were done, words were spoken, Gospels and epistles were written. Your disdain for the Tradition of the Church is simply a manmade tradition handed to you by schismatics past.

How do you know the New Testament to be divine, written revelation except through the Catholic Church, as Luther notes in my signature line?

Do you know why a parenthesis is used in a sentence?

It is typically not employed to contradict the noun placed prior to it.

Where is it taught that eternal life is through baptism?

Do you even bother to read my posts?

What does St Paul mean by “putting on Christ”?

Where is it taught in Scripture that it’s based on “communion with His Church?”

You don’t seem very familiar with Scripture, Moondweller. Perhaps it stems from simply starting with your chosen theology and then cherrypicking only those verses which support it, ignoring all others.

Matthew 18:

15": Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

“16”: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

“17”: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

“18”: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Do you think Christ here is saying that the heathen man and publican will enter eternal life?

Do you think Christ here tells the disciples to “tell it unto the church” in reference to a mystical invisible church?

No, one must remain in communion with the Church. This is why St Paul wrote the epistles in the first place—to foster unity and keep the churches he planted from going astray and falling out of the Body of Christ.

I would assume you’re defining the word “communion” as “in agreement,” and “His Church” as the hierarchy of the RCC.

Communion does not mean what you seem to think it means, but given the idol you’ve made of your own “belief” this doesn’t surprise me.

The Catechism, freely available to all:

946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479** The communion of saints is the Church. **

947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . **Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 “As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.”**481

948 **The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and “among holy persons (sancti).” **

Sancta sanctis! (“God’s holy gifts for God’s holy people”) is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ’s holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.

I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS

949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."482

Communion in the faith. The faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.

950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. The communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments. . . . The name ‘communion’ can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God. . . . But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."483

951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit “distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank” for the building up of the Church.484 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."485

952 "They had everything in common."486 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."487 A Christian is a steward of the Lord’s goods.488

953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

Where is this doctrine, in respect to eternal life, taught in Scripture?

I posted it in my last response, which you obviously didn’t bother to read. Among other things, one must be baptised before receiving the Eucharist, which is required for eternal life as John 6 notes.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.How do you know, for certain (rather than by subjective confidence) that if you die today you’ll hear “the Savior’s” words?

Why don’t you actually read my previous post?

I’ll hear them should I die today because I have been baptized and am in full communion with his Church. I received the Lord in the Eucharist last Sunday and will receive him again tomorrow. Per John 6, I have eternal life within me. Per Paul in 1 Corinthians 11, I have not approached bread and cup unworthily.

And since you have this subjective confidence for only the day (actually, your “confidence” can only be for the minute moment, everything else must be considered future), then you do not believe you have eternal life.

You really haven’t got a clue about Catholicism.

I have eternal life until I commit a mortal sin. To regain it, I must confess and repent, whereupon I am restored to eternal life.

So then your ultimate salvation is based on Law (Commandment) keeping, rather than by grace through faith according to promise, thereby proving to be a son of Hagar.

The sacraments being visible signs of God’s grace, you’re simply wrong. Moreover, these sacraments stem from Christ’s commandments and his works. You tread on dangerous ground rejecting them, particularly the Eucharist. See John 6.

As for “refusing the gift of eternal life” by sinning, what you’re actually saying is the gift is refused you (rescinded) when sinning.

I’m saying nothing of the sort. I’m saying that upon committing a mortal sin, I have been as the wicked servant of Matthew 25 (have you bothered to read it yet, Moondweller?) who has not employed the talents given him for good works. We have been granted the grace of God through baptism; we continue to receive sanctifying grace through the sacraments. When we subsequently turn away from God, repentance is required.

But perhaps you are sinless and therefore do not need to repent.

Hence, it is neither gifted nor eternal.

Hence, you don’t understand logic:

1. A gift is something freely given.
2. I may refuse a gift.
3. A refused gift is still a gift.

and

1. Eternal life is life without end.
2. I may refuse eternal life.
3. This does not change the definition of eternal life; although my refusal means my own life is not eternal.

“Return to having eternal life,” is an oxymoron.And you have the pride and arrogance to accuse me of not knowing what words mean?

Yes, you don’t know what oxymoron means either:

ox·y·mo·ron (ŏk’sē-môr’ŏn’, -mōr’-)
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr’ə, -mōr’ə) or ox·y·mo·rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a **deafening silence **and a mournful optimist.

Moreover, did not Christ come down from heaven, live, die, and return to eternal life?

It is neither pride nor arrogance to correct your incorrect use of language, nor your sloppy thinking.

Since you are my brother, correction is necessary, lest you become heathen man or publican, per Matthew 18.

 

[banjo]

Just a couple of observations:

Originally posted by Sandusky
ISTM that’s the point given the most weight by contemporary Catholics—an historical pedigree. The Baptist warned the Jews against just such thinking.

The warning of John to the Pharisees and Sadducees seems to me to be directed at anyone who holds similar positions regarding salvation, i.e. ‘We are in the Covenant, therefore we are saved.’ This would hold true for Catholics who think that because they attend Mass on Sunday that is enough, or others who think that because they have ‘Accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior’ that is enough. Christ said those will enter the Kingdom who do the will of the Father (Mt 7:21).

Originally posted by Sandusky
From the Catholic perspective, I agree—you must earn the right to keep the gift (there’s that oxymoron again)—your statement indicates that you’re counting on your ability to keep the gift. If that’s the case, the duration of your possession of the gift is very questionable.

We should never count on our own ability but on God’s grace. “I am like an evergreen cypress, from me comes your fruit” Hos 14:8. Even so Christ instructs us, “you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved” Mt 10:22

 

[Teflon93]

Just a couple of observations:

The warning of John to the Pharisees and Sadducees seems to me to be directed at anyone who holds similar positions regarding salvation, i.e. ‘We are in the Covenant, therefore we are saved.’ This would hold true for Catholics who think that because they attend Mass on Sunday that is enough, or others who think that because they have ‘Accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior’ that is enough. Christ said those will enter the Kingdom who do the will of the Father (Mt 7:21).

This is a good point. It is always worth quoting whole passages, lest someone miss the context:

Matthew 7:
1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9: Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10: Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
**12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. **
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28: And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

This is also an important refutation of Moondweller’s earlier point that Christ’s doctrine was not to be found in what Christ says in the Gospels but in what St Paul says in the epistles.

We should never count on our own ability but on God’s grace. “I am like an evergreen cypress, from me comes your fruit” Hos 14:8.

Hosea 14:

1: O Israel, **return **unto the LORD thy God; for** thou hast fallen by thine iniquity**.

2: Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3: Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4: I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5: I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6: His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
7: They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
8: Ephraim shall say,** What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found**.
9: Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

A very salient passage, Banjo.

Even so Christ instructs us, “you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved” Mt 10:22

 

[Teflon93]

Continued

Matthew 10:

1: And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3: Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4: Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. **
8: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9: Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10: Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11: And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12: And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13: And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15: Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17: But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18: And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19: But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20: For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21: And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved**.
23: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24: The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27: What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31: Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36: And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41: He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42: And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The last verse gets quoted fairly often by the OSASers, but all that precedes less so, particularly the need to do what the Lord commands and to endure until the end.

For a reward is given upon condition, as in my example above regarding $50 for an A in Math.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t agree with that; if the RC were obliterated tonight Christianity would still be in the world; IMO, the RC does not define Christianity.

I agree with you, but the Catholic Church is not defined by “romanism” either, as you seem to think. The Catholic Church is much broader than the Roman Rite.

However, what Sean is saying is true, because the Catholic Church was the only church for a millenia. All the other expressions of Christianity formed by how they differentiate themselves from Catholics. That is why, if the Catholic Church were not what she claims to be, there would be no Christianity in the world.

The more accurate statement is, either “she’s what she says she is, or she isn’t," and I go with the latter.

Why are you on CAF, sandusky? If you have already made up your mind, then what is the point of hanging around here?

ISTM that’s the point given the most weight by contemporary Catholics—an historical pedigree. The Baptist warned the Jews against just such thinking.

I agree that Truth is not found in history alone.

 

[peary]

You see, God created some people for perdition, so nothing that happens to them will change that election. Therefore, it is God’s decision that they are damned, and therefore an obedient person can dispatch such a one with impunity, since one is only conforming onself to the decision that God has already made! :bigyikes:

WOW! I don’t agree with that AT ALL!

 

[guanophore]

Though the text does not state it, it may very well have been the 2nd Person of the Trinity that spoke directly to Moses on Mt. Sinai. He is called the “Word” (Jn. 1:1).

So what about the word “commandments” in relation to Christ in such passages as: Jn. 14:14, 21; 15:10; 1 Jn. 2:3; 3:22, 24; 5:2; Matt. 28:20; etc. It needs to be understood that when dealing with Jews in Israel He gave no commandments of His own relative to the rule of their lives.

So, you admit that Christ is one with the father, an “may very well” have been present during the giving of the commandments to Moses, but yet, you deny that He is One with the Father, in that the commandments given were not his own?

He recognized only the Law of Moses. During the time of His earthly ministry Israel was under the covenant of Law and when asked He responded accordingly: “What do you read in the Law,” or, He asked what Moses had commanded them.

Jesus did not use the term “My commandments” until the upper room discourse, the night before His sacrificial death (Jn. chapters 13-14).

This is a broad assumption to make, seeing as how the majority of what he said and did was not written down…

That discourse was not addressed to national Israel but to those few who were clean through the Word He had spoken to them (Jn. 15:3). In this portion of Scripture the cross is treated as an accomplished fact, and that whole body of teaching is dated beyond the cross as seen by His words in Jn. 14:29: “Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.”

So, the commandments they were to keep if they Love Him were…???

The “Upper Room Discourse” is the Genesis of the Epistles of the N.T. In it, in germ form, the great doctrines of GRACE are announced. His phrase, “My commandments” is reserved until this GRACE-revelation, because this term refers to the teachings (doctrines) of grace found in the Epistles, rather than to the Law. They are uniquely distinct.

Moon, salvation has always been by grace, through faith. This has not changed before, during, or after the Law of Moses. You make it sound as if God’s saving grace was some sort of newfangled idea!

His “new commandment” in Jn. 13:34 is in reference to those who will make up His church which He would build after His bodily resurrection and ascension back into glory - upon the foundation of the Apostles (Eph. 2:20-21). The ones who would be baptized into the “body of Christ” upon belief in Him; recipients of divine grace.

The commandments of Christ are not related to the Law or any aspect of it. They constitute the “law of love,” and the “perfect law of liberty.” They enter into the doctrines of GRACE set forth by Christ to His Apostles whom He gave authority and commandment, and are found in the Epistles which are addressed to His church.

I am not claiming that the commandments of Christ are related to the Law or any aspect of it. I am claiming that His commandments are based on divine precepts for man that superscede the Law of Moses, and exist before, during and after that covenant. His divine precepts are reflected in the ten commandments, and that is why He spoke as He did about them to the Jews. After His death, the Apostles continued to “uphold the Law” in the sense that it’s content reflects the higher Law of Christ, how love is to be expressed to God and to one another.

 

[guanophore]

The text does not indentify what those "statutes and ordinances" are.How does the text indentify them?  You're asking me to answer according to your assumption.

I would like you to answer based on your assumptions. What do you think they are, and what do you think the text is talking about when it says putting the Spirit within, so that the people can keep them?

The commandment (singular) “from the beginning” is found in Jn. 13:34.Let’s read verse eight which puts it in context:Rom 13:8 ¶ Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled {the} law.He’s making a statement, Mike, not a conditional requirement.

I agree. Why does that matter? The statement is “Love is the fulfillment of the Law”. You keep saying that there is no relationship, yet Paul clearly notes one here with this statement!

As I said in a previous post, the legasist mindset interprets all the exhortations for believers to live disciplined, godly lives as conditional statements (binding laws) regarding their salvation.

Yes, I see that your mind does this every single time we reach this spot, no matter what the text is. On the contrary, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, not by fulfilling the Law.

God puts His spirit within us, enabling us to live in HIs love. In this way, we walk by the Spirit, and not by the flesh. The Law is fulfilled in our lives just as it was in the life of Christ, who is our model. We imitate Him by our obedience.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Why do you stress proper behavior with your own offspring (assuming you have them). So that they (offspring) at some determined, future event might officially BECOME your “children?” Or do you stress discipline and proper behavior because they ARE your children? And as your children, when stressing discipline and proper behavior, do you attach the threat of abandonment, disownment and their destruction by fire when you disapprove of their behavior? Is that why Catholics stress the idea of the motherhood of Mary, because they have this convoluted concept of the Fatherhood of God?

Catholics simply go by scripture when we look at references to our heavenly Father and being members of his household. Your statements are nothing more than sarcasm born of frustration in not having any answers.

Do you have even the remotest clue as to the meaning and intent of the parable of the Prodigal Son?

The prodigal son is a member of the household just as we Christians are members of the household. The prodigal son has an inheritance provided by the father just as our heavenly Father provides us with a heavenly inheritance. The prodigal son is not threatened with anything and neither are we. Nevertheless, the prodigal son leaves the house of his father and squanders his inheritance. Likewise, we too can leave the household and squander our heavenly inheritance.

There are consequences to what we do within the household. Christ has freed us from sin and death and has made us members of our Father’s household. As members of the household we are as Paul says, “done with sin” and we no longer to “live in sin.” Instead, we are to live by the Spirit.

We can be like the prodigal son and leave the household. When we do this we live in the flesh, and Paul tells us that living in the flesh brings death and condemnation. Party spirit, fornication, murder and the like will lead to condemnation. No one that does such things will receive a heavenly inheritance.

We can choose to leave the household and we can choose to do those things that bring condemnation. Those are simply the consequences of leaving the household. The prodigal son left the household and so can we. The prodigal son eventually returned to his father’s house repentant. We can choose to return to our heavenly Father’s household in repentance, but God does not force us to do so.

We know that if we leave the household that we are in the flesh and that this will lead to spiritual death and condemnation. When the prodigal son returns to his father in repentance, his father exclaims n Luke 15:24:

“…this son of mine was dead and is now alive again; he was lost and now is found.”

Salvation can be lost. Justification is not once and for all. A person can lose their salvation and can be restored in justification.

This statement of the father is reiterated a second time to the older brother who complains to the father for the celebration given for the prodigal upon his return. The father once again says in Luke 15:32:

"But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found."

This parable and the emphasized passages need to be looked at and appreciated for their obvious meaning. Salvation can be lost. Salvation can be restored.

Other passages of scripture corroborate this. The apostle James hammers this home when he says:

James 5:19-20
"My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Members of the household are holy and live by the Spirit. Those that leave the household and live in the flesh will have no heavenly inheritance. They must return to the Father repentant or they will remain outside the household. That is is the consequence of sin.

If you can understand the prodigal son you will understand the Catholic view and you will stop putting forth your tired strawman arguments of legalism.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Actually, this has nothing to do with the Roman Rite of the Church. This is Apostolic Teaching, and is shared by all the Catholic Church, not only the Latin. The authority of the Church rests in her head, which is Christ. Yes, He is greater than both Scripture and Tradition.

How can the church NOT be subservient to Him?

You’ve completely missed White’s point.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

Ahh, but the Church teaches it cannot be earned, but only merited to the extent that Christ has promised if we do as he bids us do in the rather inconvenient passages I quoted (and which you ignored).

If I tell my son, “Get an A in Math and I will give you $50”, has he earned $50? He hasn’t generated $50 worth of economic value, surely. I will be out $50 which had to be generated out of my own economic activity. And yet, because I have promised to give him that which he has no power to earn himself, he will have $50 if he gets that A in Math. If he gets a D in Math, he will not get $50. Your claim is that he gets the $50 no matter what he does; Christ indicates differently. Listen to Christ.

Not so, my claim is that if the $50 in your analogy is eternal life, then your analogy is false.

Teflon93:

We are only His sheep if we persist in the fold, by following the shepherd:

This is more to the point:**Matthew 24:13

“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.**

Teflon93:

Matthew 10:

6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

They were his, but as of that time were lost. Some remain lost to this day.

Then those sheep are not the sheep spoken of in John 10, of those sheep Jesus says, ”they will never perish.” You’re not connecting the dots.

**12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to
destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.**

The broad way are the religious; those who engage in churchiosity, and all of its ritual.

 

[sandusky]

banjo:

The warning of John to the Pharisees and Sadducees seems to me to be directed at anyone who holds similar positions regarding salvation, i.e. ‘We are in the Covenant, therefore we are saved.’ This would hold true for Catholics who think that because they attend Mass on Sunday that is enough, or others who think that because they have ‘Accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior’ that is enough. Christ said those will enter the Kingdom who do the will of the Father (Mt 7:21).

My point was in reference to an historical pedigree only.

 

[Teflon93]

Not so, my claim is that if the $50 in your analogy is eternal life, then your analogy is false.

You will have to provide some evidence as to why the analogy is false. Otherwise, you are simply begging the question—i.e.,“the analogy is false because eternal life is unconditional.”

This is more to the point:Matthew 24:13

“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Not that I don’t trust you, but I believe in context:

Matthew 24:

: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12: And because iniquity shall abound,** the love of many shall wax cold**.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38: For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40: Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41: Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43: But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
**45: Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. **
47: Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48: But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49: And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50: The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51: And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Which of course leads to Christ explaining what the difference between a good and evil servant is in Matthew 25, and what the reward of each shall be.

Then those sheep are not the sheep spoken of in John 10, of those sheep Jesus says, ”they will never perish.” You’re not connecting the dots.

So why did Jesus order the apostles to go to the lost sheep of Israel if a) they would never perish or b) they would never be saved?

You’re not making sense.

The broad way are the religious; those who engage in churchiosity, and all of its ritual.

Where may I find the term “churchiosity” in Scripture?

Christ instituted his own ritual—the Last Supper, which is now the Mass.

Perhaps you can show us where Christ wrote the Sinner’s Prayer, or commanded the altar call, or better yet insisted upon that bit of Old Testament Law which many a Fundamentalist and evangelical finds absolutely indispensable—the tithe.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

You will have to provide some evidence as to why the analogy is false. Otherwise, you are simply begging the question—i.e.,“the analogy is false because eternal life is unconditional.”

I’ve maintained for the entire thread that eternal life is a free gift (cf Rom 6:23).

Teflon93:

So why did Jesus order the apostles to go to the lost sheep of Israel if a) they would never perish or b) they would never be saved?

You’re not making sense.

In Jn 9:40, Jesus is talking to a group of Pharisses. At the beginning of chapter 10, He tells them the parable of the Good Shepherd; the Good Shepherd is Jesus, and the sheep are Israel. In 10:6, we’re told that the Pharisees didn’t understand Jesus, and so He tells them again. In v16, He tells of “other sheep which are not of this [original] fold,” and that He must bring them in, and they will hear Him, and that they will become one flock with one Shepherd. Those other sheep are the Gentiles. Again, His words cause a division among the Jews (v19). In v25, Jesus continues with this extended metaphor of the sheep:

** John 10:25-30

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

30 “I and the Father are one.”**So there are two different sheep folds—the one you mentioned from Mt 10 is Israel. In John 10, the sheep fold of the Gentiles is introduced, and the sheep fold described subsequent to Jn 10:25, is the one of which Christ says, ”they will not perish.”

Teflon93:

Where may I find the term “churchiosity” in Scripture?

You mayn’t; I wasn’t quoting scripture.

Teflon93:

Christ instituted his own ritual—the Last Supper, which is now the Mass.

According to your Tradition.

Teflon93:

Perhaps you can show us where Christ wrote the Sinner’s Prayer, or commanded the altar call, or better yet insisted upon that bit of Old Testament Law which many a Fundamentalist and evangelical finds absolutely indispensable—the tithe.

I’ve told you before, Teflon, go find fundamentalists who adhere to those things, and ask them.

 

[guanophore]

From the Catholic perspective, I agree—you must earn the right to keep the gift (there’s that oxymoron again)

Actually, this is not a Catholic perspective, but a twisted perception of Catholicism that you developed, or were given.

It makes no sense at all. If it is a gift, then you can’t earn it. Furhtermore, no man has a “claim” or “right” to God’s gifts. That is just nonsense.

Is this how you twist up the idea that we should bear fruit that befits repentance?

I wonder, when I read your posts, if you are reflecting the tortures that Luther went thru in his mind. If he thought at you do, it is no wonder he rebelled.

—your statement indicates that you’re counting on your ability to keep the gift. If that’s the case, the duration of your possession of the gift is very questionable.John 10:25-30

I am not sure what statement you are reflecting here (I don’t think it was mine), but Catholics are never taught to rely on their own abilities to keep what God has given. Granted, I think many of them do, but it is because they do not understand grace. It is God who is the one who is able to keep us until that Day.
sandusky;3974796:

30 “I and the Father are one.”

[in context, they are one in purpose with respect to the disposition of the sheep—they will never perish].Put your confidence in God alone.

I agree that they can’t get snatched, but they can sure jump out, and run off. Such was the case with some of those to whom the letters are written in Revelation.