Commandments should not be followed ...

[Teflon93]

Judas is an example of a believer that perished. Judas is never referred to as a non-believer. Judas is, instead, described as a traitor. This is very important. He believed in Jesus and he betrayed his Lord and Savior. Please note that at the marriage feast of Cana Jesus worked his first miracle and scripture tells us that His disciples believed in Him[John 2:11]. Clearly, Judas had faith. Jesus picked the twelve apostles and in Matthew 10:1 it says Jesus, “….called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” Even Judas was given the authority over unclean spirits and the power of healing. This is power by way of the Spirit.

The record on Judas as recorded by John is a little more ambiguous:

John 6:

60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64:** But there are some of you that believe not**. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69:** And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ**, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Verse 64 could be an indication that Judas was a nonbeliever, or that Judas didn’t believe the Eucharistic teaching, or that Judas was a betrayer but not a nonbeliever.

Judas’ suicide would seem to indicate he came around to belief before the end, although he gave into despair.

 

[mikeledes]

The dispute underlying your post should be restated: Is a man justified by faith alone, or, do his works justify him even to the attainment of eternal life?

What you say in the initial “blue” paragraph above stands in contrast to this statement
in the [CCC:]](Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2)2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.Your statement does not square with the CCC, IMO. I’ve seen your language acquire a definite Calvinist flavor over the last year, however, I don’t buy it because as has been said so often, the CCC is the compendium of church teaching, and its language is decidedly more Catholic than yours.

The bottom line in the argument for me is, “do works justify the believer?”

Obviously they do according to the CCC. The two red words in the citation above are identical in meaning for the Catholic. Furthermore, the final statement sums up: the Catholic, for himself merits the attainment of eternal life.

Between that statement, and Trents on Jusitification, I conclude that you are “meriting merit,” or “meriting grace” which is oxymoronic.

Concerning 1 Tim 6:17-19, I never agree with your use of scripture. The major point of constraint placed upon you in the realm of interpretation is that your interpretation must agree with RC teaching, and it always does (however, that doesn’t mean your interpretation is valid).

To begin with, the context of the passage is not salvation.

Moving to the “hina.”so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.The initial instruction is to the rich in the church not to be conceited or trust in those earthly riches. He’s not instructing them to divest themselves of those riches, or that they shouldn’t enjoy them, but rather, through the godly use of them, to continue storing treasure on the good foundation of their works. They already have eternal life, Paul’s urging that they be instructed to continue storing treasure for the future [kingdom].

“…Take hold of life,” is a metaphor. In using riches wisely, those Timothy is to instruct will "take hold of that which is life indeed.”

That’s what the future kingdom is all about—stewardship, selflessness, love—he’s saying store for it now by living as if you’re in it now.

It’s in that sense that Paul’s saying “take hold of life indeed”—grasp the reality of the future now by putting its principles into practice now.

He’s by no means saying that ones works earn the “currency” of justification necessary to enter the kingdom—that’s freely given.

If eternal life is on the basis of works, it’s no longer grace, but what’s owed.

Does God owe you eternal life?

My language does not have an increasingly Calvinist flavor. The language I use is the language the Catholic Church uses regarding the state of man prior to justification, predestination, etc. As the passage you just quoted clearly states, the Catholic Church clearly teaches that we cannot merit the grace of conversion or forgiveness of sins/ justification. As I stated earlier, “merit” in the Catholic understanding is based on God’s promises to the just, not on man’s attempts to induce God to give him what he thinks is due to him. To “merit”, you must be already justified, already forgiven, already in a state of grace. Our merits, as the Catholic Church teaches, are gifts of God for apart from grace and our being in Christ, there is no merit. The “graces” referred to in that passage refers to spiritual * assistance* in our journey to the heavenly Jerusalem, not to the fundamental grace of forgiveness of sins. God has promised to give his grace to those who are humble:

1 Peter 5:5

**5You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. **

God gives grace to those who humbly submit to His will and humbly serve others. He also provides seed for sowing:

2 Corinthians 9:8-10

8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
9as it is written,
“HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR,
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER.”
10Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;

So when the Catholic Church talks about meriting graces, it means that the more - by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit - you submit youself to the will of God and serve Him, the more grace God will give you so that you can grow in sanctification. Sanctification occurs when we make our members instruments of righteousness (i.e righteous conduct):

Romans 6:19

**19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. **

And the end of sanctification is eternal life:

Romans 6:22

**22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. **

Hebrews 12:14

14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Regarding eternal life, the Bible also says (Galatians 6:7-9).

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

WOW! I don’t agree with that AT ALL!

I guess you won’t make a very good dispensationalist, then, or a Calvanist either. You are probably sunk in that Catholic attitude of Loving your Neighbor stuff.

 

[Pax]

…
…
I have eternal life now, being baptized in Christ and in communion with his Church. If I were to die today, I am confident I would hear those words from the Savior I long to hear.

I cannot predict the future, nor can you. Perhaps tomorrow I will not resist the sins St Paul warned us about and thus violate the Commandments given us by God, thus refusing the gift of eternal life. In which case, I can only hope I will repent and return to full communion with the Body of Christ, and thus return to having eternal life. It is the life which is eternal, not our possession of it.

True, true…true.

God’s grace makes us members of His family. We are adopted sons and daughters of God. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Father’s purpose for those he predestines is to conform them to the image of His son.[Rom 8]

The apostle Peter tells us the following:

2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

If we choose to leave the household consider what it is we are choosing. We are placing something ahead of our Creator. We are choosing corruption ahead of being partakers of the divine nature. When we do this we fall into a form of idolatry. That is why Paul says in Eph 5:5: “Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

While salvation is the free gift of God, the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23] The former is what God does, while the latter is what we do.

Salvation can, indeed, be lost and it will be our own doing. Salvation is God’s doing, but he allows us to have what it is we freely want and choose. That is why salvation is referred to as a gift rather than something that is imposed upon us.

 

[guanophore]

And on what basis is He able to keep?So then He is not “able to keep.”

Grace. Everyone, throughout all of time, has been saved by grace, through faith. It was that way before Moses, during Moses up to Christ, and after Christ. The basis of salvation has not changed.

It’s a gift.

which can be thrown away - spurned

It’s by grace.

Grace is accessed by faith, and faith works through love. They are not separated from one another.

It’s based on promise.

The promise is an expression of God’s grace. It is based on grace.

It’s not based on law.

but we uphold the Law, by grace

The Law was fulfilled.

The Law continues to be fulfilled by those who are imitators of Him, because Love is the fulfillment of the Law.

We’re not under law.

But do we sin more, so grace may abound? By no means!

I’m saved.

Have been, are being, and will be (by the grace of God)/

I have eternal life.

Eternal life exists whether we are in it, or out of it. Our presence in it does not change it’s nature. It is like a river we can choose to get out of, and walk away, never to return. God gives us the same gift of choice He gave the angels.

True to Catholic theology it’s never either/or, it’s always BOTH.

I am sorry you have so much trouble getting out of that black and white mindset.

But such wishy-washy theology is not Apostolic teaching, as you keep claiming:2 Cor 1:18-19 “But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.”

I can understand why it seems “wishy washy” to you. It requires a lot of mental flexibility to tolerate ambiguity. Both / and is a higher level of cognitive functioning.

 

[Pax]

The record on Judas as recorded by John is a little more ambiguous:

John 6:

60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64:** But there are some of you that believe not**. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69:** And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ**, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Verse 64 could be an indication that Judas was a nonbeliever, or that Judas didn’t believe the Eucharistic teaching, or that Judas was a betrayer but not a nonbeliever.

Judas’ suicide would seem to indicate he came around to belief before the end, although he gave into despair.

You’ve made a very good observation. I think that the context would indicate that Judas did not believe what Jesus taught about the Eucharist even though he continued to walk with Jesus, instead of leaving as the others did. Likewise, it points out once again that he is a “betrayer.”

Anyway, that is how I read it, but you are right…there are several ways that this might be understood and it is not clear cut one way or the other.

 

[BRB]

For those who believe OSAS, they resolve this by claiming that our sins simply no longer matter to God, and/or that we cannot commit sins at all.

.

Alot of Protestants believe they were saved of past and FUTURE sins.

They strive to be righteous, but don’t get too bent out of shape when they fail … since they know all those verses that say they are in Christ and he will never forsake them.

It is very comforting to have such theology. Problem is … after a while one gets lax and quits confessing. Protestants are taught to confess sins directly to Christ, their high Priest.

 

[Teflon93]

You’ve made a very good observation. I think that the context would indicate that Judas did not believe what Jesus taught about the Eucharist even though he continued to walk with Jesus, instead of leaving as the others did. Likewise, it points out once again that he is a “betrayer.”

Anyway, that is how I read it, but you are right…there are several ways that this might be understood and it is not clear cut one way or the other.

I personally believe Judas to have not been a true believer—with his disbelief of the Eucharist and his reaction to being chastened by Christ for objecting to his anointment sealing the deal on his act of betrayal.

I can see how one might find Judas to have been true prior to his corruption by Satan, however, although free will being what it is this could not have been without Judas’ consent.

I suppose that the Fundamentalist OSAS view would be that Judas was never a real sheep, and the hyperCalvinist view would be that Judas was simply a sinner used by Christ to forward the plan of salvation.

 

[Teflon93]

Alot of Protestants believe they were saved of past and FUTURE sins.

Good point—the Pentecostal community to which my wife and I belong used the example of a cloak thrown over our sins by Christ to explain how such a thing works; a visiting pastor used the analogy of a trial where God is the prosecutor and Christ the defense attorney on the basis of the Scripture where Christ promises to confess those to the Father who confess him.

They strive to be righteous, but don’t get too bent out of shape when they fail … since they know all those verses that say they are in Christ and he will never forsake them.

This was my own view as a Protestant of various stripes.

It is very comforting to have such theology. Problem is … after a while one gets lax and quits confessing. Protestants are taught to confess sins directly to Christ, their high Priest.

True, although various communties also practice public confession, whether on retreat, in small group, or at altar calls. The human need to confess and hear that one is forgiven seems to be innate.

 

[Philthy]

Since God is Omnipotent, sees the future, and works his will in history … ones final outcome/destiny is a known quantity.

You dont know this with absolute certainty, however. There is no such explicit statement in unambiguous terms in Scripture. In fact you dont even truly understand what it means to say that ones destiny is a known quantity.

Christ clearly teaches he will never forsake his sheep. That’s an Oath.

It is not clear to me what, exactly, we can take from the sheep metaphor. Are all those who are saved when they die, sheep? Are there some sheep who are predestined to salvation differently than others? It is a metaphor, and its terms are not perfectly understood. You cannot build an entire theology around such a portion of Scripture, and this is especially true when there is so much direct, non-metaphorical Scripture which warns of falling away. Does “make your calling and election firm” ring any bells?

For us to think that only those who have seen angels, walked with Christ, or had conversions like Pauls have salvation certitude is misguided thinking.

What is it with you? How many times have we asked you to define exactly what you mean by “salvation certitude”? It’s useless to have a conversation where we are uncertain what we each mean by the term.
You base your apparent “salvation certitude” on your interpretation of Scripture, correct? Yet you dont claim to be infallible in interpreting Scripture. If you cant claim infallibility in interpreting Scripture you cant claim infallibility in having “salvation certitude”.

 

[Philthy]

Clearly then you would take the Prodigal Son parable as being addressed to a ‘believer’ who falls away from faith.

Do you Moondweller & Sandusky ?

If not … who is Christ talking to in that parable ?

I’ll volunteer that Pax’s earlier explanation of the parable was outstanding and covered the question you are asking.

 

[moondweller]

Catholics simply go by scripture when we look at references to our heavenly Father and being members of his household. Your statements are nothing more than sarcasm born of frustration in not having any answers.

Do you have even the remotest clue as to the meaning and intent of the parable of the Prodigal Son?

The prodigal son is a member of the household just as we Christians are members of the household. The prodigal son has an inheritance provided by the father just as our heavenly Father provides us with a heavenly inheritance. The prodigal son is not threatened with anything and neither are we. Nevertheless, the prodigal son leaves the house of his father and squanders his inheritance. Likewise, we too can leave the household and squander our heavenly inheritance.

It’s easy to read one’s own theology into a parable.

Both the believer and his inheritance, according to Apostolic teaching, are revealed to be very different from that of the PS and his inheritance.1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."The believer, now in Christ, can’t squander an inheritance that’s imperishable and reserved in heaven, and who is himself protected by the power of God.

The story of the prodigal son more suitably reflects national Israel (to whom He’s speaking), in which it did squander its inheritance by rejecting its Messiah and wallowed in the mire amongst the Gentiles. But at the end of the age Israel returns to the land and a remnant believes; they (the believing remnant) are ushered into the earthly, Millennial Kingdom at Messiah’s second advent.

This is all graphically foretold by Israel’s prophets.

James 5:19-20
“My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

James is writing to a mixed crowd and no doubt there were some not converted (i.e., of true belief) amongst them. “Among you” does not of necessity imply a true believer.

The person James is referring to was under the sound of the gospel, being among them, but then strays from (Gr., “apo”) the truth (not “ek,” meaning “out of” the truth, which would then refer to a believer). The Christian worker is the means of the “sinner’s” salvation (Note: a true believer is called a “saint,” never a “sinner”).

This passage has nothing to do with losing salvation and gaining it back again. Nor does the parable of the prodigal son.

 

[Teflon93]

James 5:

1: Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2: Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3: Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4: Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5: Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6: Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7:** Be patient therefore, brethren**, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8: Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9: Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10: **Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. **
11: Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13: Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14: Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16: Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17: Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18: And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Moondweller, you didn’t even bother to read the passage, did you?

Either James’ definition of "brethren’ is far different from your unScriptural and very limited one, or James was speaking to Christians.

Either way, it certainly is easier to read one’s theology into a verse or two, which is why in discussion with non-Catholics we must ALWAYS look at the full passage for the context you invariably leave out.

 

[moondweller]

Tefson93:

Moondweller answered no; I do not recall Sandusky doing so.

I have presented the Scripture which defines who are brothers in Christ, we have discussed at length Christ’s command to love one another, and it is enlightening to see the obstacles under which Moondweller and Sandusky labor in this regard.

What’s to labor over?John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."Now, go to the beginning of the chapter, Tef., and take note as to whom He was speaking: “Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them (lit.) to the uttermost.”

Speaking only to those who “were His own” He gave a new commandment. What? That they love their neighbor as themselves? Why would that be new? Didn’t the Law already require it? Even the Jewish lawyer understood that requirement of the Law (although Jesus demonstrated to him his utter failure to keep it through the story of the “Good Samaritan”).

It was “new” because there was shortly to come about a whole new classification of people on this earth designated His own who, by grace through faith in Him alone, would be purchased (redeemed) out of this world by His substitutionary death and sacrificial blood. Men eternally related to Him through a new and better covenant with better promises.

This “new” commandment of His wasn’t to those under the Law with regards to loving one’s “neighbor,” but to the redeemed, and their loving “one another,” just as He loved them “to the uttermost.”

He gave that new commandment to those few in the upper room who were deemed “His own,” but ultimately pertained also to those who would believe in Him through their word (Jn. 17:20).

I find no obstacles with this new commandment.

I keep asking because I remain a Christian, as you do, and Moondweller and (apparently) Sandusky refuse to obey the command of Christ.

Not at all, I abide in it (and I have no doubt about Sandusky). But this new commandment pertains only to those who are of the promise, not law; grace, not works; children of the free woman, not the bondwoman (Hagar, Mt. Sinai); children of the new covenant; residents of the Jerusalem above which is free.

Those who want to impose the Law have their commandment: To love God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love their neighbor as themselves. All to which, according to Law, must be perfectly executed throughout their lives, because those who practice them must live by them. Since, says Paul, “the law is not of faith” (Gal. 3:12).

But is “loving” your neighbor personally attacking his intellect, his character, falsely accusing and publicly denigrating him?

We are called upon to correct our brothers, are we not?

In such a manner? What makes it even worse is that you call us your “brothers.”

 

[Teflon93]

Those who want to impose the Law have their commandment: To love God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love their neighbor as themselves. All to which, according to Law, must be perfectly executed throughout their lives, because those who practice them must live by them. Since, says Paul, “the law is not of faith” (Gal. 3:12).

You have been thoroughly schooled in this thread on your error from all perspectives, including Catholic teaching (which you continue to lie about after having been corrected), including Scripture (do I need to post Galatians 5 again, which continues to contradict your false, manmade tradition regarding the Commandments no longer being valid in the words of St Paul himself?)

But is “loving” your neighbor personally attacking his intellect, his character, falsely accusing and publicly denigrating him?In such a manner?

It surely is embarrassing for you to neither be able to justify your position and have to ignore huge swaths of Scripture which contradict it. Your intellect I cannot speak for, having criticized instead your command of language given your “unique” employment of words to mean things which they do not mean. Perhaps you should retrace the numerous posts where you’ve called Catholics everything but “Brother” before adding hypocrisy to your list of traits displayed in this thread. As for character, I posted the Catechism’s teaching on salvation, grace, faith, and works, and gave you fair warning that resorting to the mythology you brought to this thread regarding Catholics having a “works-based salvation” would mark you for a liar, since you have been provided authoritative evidence to the contrary. Take this as a lesson in free will, Moondweller. You chose to lie about what the Church teaches. It doesn’t speak well of you that you do this, and then accuse me of falsely attacking you.

What makes it even worse is that you call us your “brothers.”

No, I call you my brother.

Once again, here’s that bit of Scripture you can neither explain away nor obey. Oddly enough, it’s from the same chapter of Galatians which you constantly paste from but never bother reading:

“26”: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

“27”: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

You are my brother because you have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as I have.

As for why correcting you is indeed love, hey Jude:

20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25: To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

You already know the other verses you’ve ignored in this regard, including some from the mouth of Christ himself.

I can only continue to pray for you, Moondweller.

 

[Teflon93]

Now for those who HAVEN’T ignored this passage before, here’s Galatians 5:

1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
**14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. **
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26: Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

This remains an utter refutation of the OP, some 990 posts ago.

 

[Teflon93]

And lest any believe St Paul thought that Christians be bound to love only those who they felt like so doing, I give you (again) 1 Thessalonians 3:

“1”: Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

“2”: And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

“3”: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

“4”: For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

“5”: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

“6”: But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

“7”: Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

“8”:** For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord**.

“9”: For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;

“10”: Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

“11”: Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

“12”: And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

“13”: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

[Teflon93]

Christ also had something to say about this.

Matthew 5:

1: And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8: Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10: Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11: Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15: Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31: It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33: Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36: Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37: But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38: Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
**46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? **
**47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? **
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Indeed, Christ knew whereof he spoke, dying for all men’s sins.

 

[Teflon93]

And, given at how the rest of the thread has gone, I fully expect that the notion that Christ died for all men will be challenged.

Romans 5:

“1”: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

“2”: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

“3”: And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

“4”: And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

“5”: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

“6”: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

“7”: For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

“8”: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

“9”: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

“10”: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

“11”: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

“12”: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

“13”: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

“14”: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

“15”: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

“16”: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

“17”: For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

“18”: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

“19”: For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

“20”: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

“21”: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Pax]

I personally believe Judas to have not been a true believer—with his disbelief of the Eucharist and his reaction to being chastened by Christ for objecting to his anointment sealing the deal on his act of betrayal.

I can see how one might find Judas to have been true prior to his corruption by Satan, however, although free will being what it is this could not have been without Judas’ consent.

I suppose that the Fundamentalist OSAS view would be that Judas was never a real sheep, and the hyperCalvinist view would be that Judas was simply a sinner used by Christ to forward the plan of salvation.

I agree with what you are saying, but it presents a real difficulty for non-Catholics that do not accept the Eucharist any more than Judas did. Scripture says that Judas believed in Jesus, and when Jesus is proclaimed to be the son of God, Judas never goes into denial. Like non-Catholics today, he only denied the Eucharistic promise in John 6, but continued to walk with Jesus until the betrayal.