Commentaries on John 15

[OnlineHarvest]

OH,
The problem that you encounter here is that we are here dealing with Almighty God and not a man. This is the God that raises the dead and grafts the wild olive branch into the one in His garden.

He does, however, make reference to burning these branches, which I cannot see as any other kind of reference than hell itself. When I read that, it speaks of finality. These are not people who are coming back (of course, assuming you hold to the belief that one can lose your salvation which I do not)

The passage also says that God prunes branches that He wants more fruit from and that certainly has some application here as well.

There is a HUGE difference between pruning and cutting off and throwing into the fire. I would say pruning best represents God’s chatizement for believers. True believers are NEVER cut off.

The problem is that we, because we cannot know another’s heart, cannot say when and if a branch is cut off and bound for fire. It’s not our place to say that anyway, and according to the New Testament, we would open ourselves up to judgement by the same imperfect standards that we use. (No thanks…)

I understand your concern, but it is not necessarily the case. The NT gives us a pattern to confront these kind of people (alone, with a pair, elders, church), and if that fails, we are to treat them as unbelievers. I am not suggesting we go around judging people’s heart and motives, but let us not shy from calling a spade a spade. That is necessary and even commanded within the church, people who claim to be Christian.

I guess…in the end, the best lesson is to make very sure that you are that faithful branch bearing fruit a hundred fold.And Catholic theology is just that…consistent… with the total context of the New Testament.

The inconsistency IMO, is in those who say it cannot be lost in contradiction to the Word of God.

I would not disagree with bearing fruit - it is what demonstrates those who truly belong, who have true and genuine faith. I think an example of why a verse can be used inconsistently is better demonstrated by the use of Hebrews 6:4-6.

I believe that we are better servants of God if we are busy watching for and welcoming back those prodigals that Our Father is always watching and waiting for. If I am busy with these…I will have little time to waste with conjecture as to who may have lost their salvation.

In the eloquence of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen.

“There is a need to take hold of tortured souls like Peter, agnostics like Thomas, and mystics like John and lead them to tears, to their knees or to resting on His Sacred Heart.”

Yes, but we are talking about theological matters here. And that is hardly a waste!

 

[JeanneH]

Kewl! Is Strong’s online? If not, what does it say about “takes away?” (# 142)

Yes it is.

olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

It is very helpful and I use it a lot.

JeanneH

 

[ryanoneil]

That is inconsistent. If a branch is cut, John 15 says that it is picked up and thrown into the fire and burned. That branch cannot be grafted in again. If you want to look at this story as the Roman Catholic does, you will have to conclude that once the branch is cut (lose salvation), it cannot be put back (cannot regain that salvation once lost). If you want to be consistent…

What makes you think the branch is burned right after it is cut?

1 Cor 3:13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.

This Scripture suggests the burning takes place on Judgement Day.

If you are going to take stock in the imagery and the context, then tell me, which gardener cuts off a dead branch and reattaches it a time later? A dead branch will not grow again, especially when it is cut from the vine!

There is nothing to indicate the branch is dead when it is cut off? verse 2 says it does not bear fruit. (big difference) and verse 6 says it is thrown out and withers. Doesn’t withering idicate that the branch is in the process of dying, because it has been cut off?

Rom 11:20-24They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Please explain how using this verse is inconsitent?

This is my point. I believe the OP and you are taking too much stock on this imagery when there are other more clear verses about the security of the believer, the TRUE believer.

Mat 10:22You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Since the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end,” you can never know that you are saved until “the end,” that is, when you die.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[OnlineHarvest]

What makes you think the branch is burned right after it is cut?

1 Cor 3:13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.

This Scripture suggests the burning takes place on Judgement Day.

The burning of the branches is not a reference to believers. The pruning is, there is a difference. The Scripture you reference above is not referring to unbelievers. In whatever way you interpret those verses (you’d say purgative fire, I wouldn’t), we still agree this fire tests BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.

And if I go with the context of the story, tell me, which garder after cutting a dead branch stores it? Not one. They cut off the dead and throw it away and it is burned.

There is nothing to indicate the branch is dead when it is cut off? verse 2 says it does not bear fruit. (big difference) and verse 6 says it is thrown out and withers. Doesn’t withering idicate that the branch is in the process of dying, because it has been cut off?

You are not reading. There is a distinction between those Christ PRUNES to grow in good works (e.g., God’s chatizement) and those Christ cust off because they are useless (thrown into fire).

Rom 11:20-24They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Please explain how using this verse is inconsitent?

Mat 10:22You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Since the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end,” you can never know that you are saved until “the end,” that is, when you die.

Peace,

Ryan

In a hurry, will return later today.

 

[ryanoneil]

Dear OnlineHarvest, thank you for challenging me because I’ve been looking at these verses for a couple hours now and I believe I understand them better as a result. (then again I might be reading things into them)

The burning of the branches is not a reference to believers. The pruning is, there is a difference.

(John 15) I agree.

The Scripture you reference above is not referring to unbelievers. In whatever way you interpret those verses (you’d say purgative fire, I wouldn’t), we still agree this fire tests BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.

(1 Cor 3) I disagree. This chapter refers to both. Paul is calling them to be animated by God’s spirit in v1 but there is jealousy and rivalry among them and they are behaving in an ordinary human way? He warns "each one must be careful how he builds upon it"v10. So, the fire is purifying for those who built their foundation on Christ and is destroying to those who don’t. Hence, “If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person.” v17

And if I go with the context of the story, tell me, which garder after cutting a dead branch stores it? Not one. They cut off the dead and throw it away and it is burned.

(John 15) Branches were cut off and dried on the vineyard wall for later use as fuel. (Footnote 4 in the NAB)

You are not reading. There is a distinction between those Christ PRUNES to grow in good works (e.g., God’s chatizement) and those Christ cust off because they are useless (thrown into fire).

(John 15) I understand. All I’m saying is the branch isn’t thrown in the fire until it is withered, dried, and dead.

In a hurry, will return later today.

Looking forward to your response.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[runandsew]

Oh, no need to apologize. You didn’t compile the commentary yourself

There is a short commentary on v. 2, but it doesn’t hit the part I need explained. It talks about the branches that are pruned, but not those that are cut off, taken away, etc (depending on the translation). The implications of cut off/taken away seem quite clear when linked with v. 6, but this pastor is suggesting something altogether different. Here’s an excerpt:

My question:

If the word used should be “lifts up” instead of “cuts off”, then it would not fit very well with verse 6:
“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”
A branch is “cast forth and withers” when it is cut off or pruned from the vine, not when it is lifted up.

I lift up many on the branches on my grape vine at home durning the growing season, and they don’t wither when I do that to them.

When you cut off the branches or prune them and leave them on the ground, then they would wither, and you would gather them later to burn.

“Lifts up” does not fit the context of John 15 in my opinion.

I am afraid this pastor is inserting his “theology” into this passage in this case.