Commentary: Islam was a religion of love, and the Taj Mahal proves it

[Servant19]

Not to worry. If we pray at all times, God will judge fairly. That is my prayer.

MJ

We have prayed for thousands of years.

Today, praying is an action, as well as words of devotion.

“Therefore strive that your actions day by day may be beautiful prayers” - Abdu’l-Baha

To LIVE a life of true, sincere love for all, acknowledging and having reverence for what others consider sacred is more righteous than saying one loves others, yet calling the very foundation of their devotion to the one God as false

From my humble perspective that is the deeper form of love…but I’m happy to be shown to be wrong

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[Techno2000]

We have prayed for thousands of years.

Today, praying is an action, as well as words of devotion.

“Therefore strive that your actions day by day may be beautiful prayers” - Abdu’l-Baha

To LIVE a life of true, sincere love for all, acknowledging and having reverence for what others consider sacred is more righteous than saying one loves others, yet calling the very foundation of their devotion to the one God as false

From my humble perspective that is the deeper form of love…but I’m happy to be shown to be wrong

.

The truth is the truth, according to you we have to just gloss over everything if somebody thinks something is sacred, pagans thought their Idols were sacred and we know now they were wrong.

 

[Servant19]

The truth is the truth, according to you we have to just gloss over everything if somebody thinks something is sacred, pagans thought their Idols were sacred and we know now they were wrong.

If every human heart is not considered sacred, then this is not love.

If I am not looking only for God and good in every human heart and what that human heart stands for, but rather looking to find ways of destroying, or falsifying, that which is the source of love in that human heart, then this is not love.

We don’t need to build a Taj Mahal to prove we have captured the love of God in our hearts.

We simply need to have reverence for the SOURCE of love in every human heart, and for Muslims that is God through His Prophet Muhammad.

Humbly, unless you truly revere Prophet Muhammad as the mediator of love between God and man, then it is not true love you have for 2 billion people, it is a “glossed over” love.

We should reflect on this…



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[IgnatianPhilo]

Humbly, unless you truly revere Prophet Muhammad as the mediator of love between God and man, then it is not true love you have for 2 billion people, it is a “glossed over” love.

We should reflect on this…



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Unless you truly revere the Prophet Joseph Smith you cannot have true love for the Mormons. Then it is not true that you do not have love for five million Mormons. It is as we say, a glossed over love, an insincere love.

Unless someone truly revered the gods of Greece they could not truly love the people who worshipped Zeus and Athena and whomever. It’s merely a glossed over love.

You realise that you are essentially damning yourself since there are prophets and gods you do not revere and in fact reject, that therefore by your own standards you do not love them.

Why does it follow that in order to love Muslims we need to revere Muhammad? Did Saint Paul have to love the Pagan Gods before he could love the Pagans he preached to? What about Christian missions to Islam countries, they have no love at all for the Muslim people they want to convert? This might be one of your worst arguments yet Servent and that’s saying a lot.

 

[Servant19]

Unless you truly revere the Prophet Joseph Smith you cannot have true love for the Mormons. Then it is not true that you do not have love for five million Mormons. It is as we say, a glossed over love, an insincere love.

Unless someone truly revered the gods of Greece they could not truly love the people who worshipped Zeus and Athena and whomever. It’s merely a glossed over love.

You realise that you are essentially damning yourself since there are prophets and gods you do not revere and in fact reject, that therefore by your own standards you do not love them.

Why does it follow that in order to love Muslims we need to revere Muhammad? Did Saint Paul have to love the Pagan Gods before he could love the Pagans he preached to? What about Christian missions to Islam countries, they have no love at all for the Muslim people they want to convert? This might be one of your worst arguments yet Servent and that’s saying a lot.

Excuse me sir!

I very much revere Joseph Smith.

There is tremendous good he brought to the world

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[TonyBS]

Excuse me sir!

I very much revere Joseph Smith.

There is tremendous good he brought to the world

.

His Love brought Him Oh so close to the Goal he was after. The foundation of His research is set in time and as such can be viewed by all.

It is another proof of what was given to Humanity, but what we still blind ourselves not to see.

Love is our key, Gods Love not ours

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Excuse me sir!

I very much revere Joseph Smith.

There is tremendous good he brought to the world

.

I notice that you didn’t address the pagan gods. If you revere the polyandry, polytheism, polygamy and materialist view of God that Joseph Smith preached then you can (though as a bahai everything that man did and said you would be opposed to so revere him at your own caution).

But how about the pagan gods? The people of ancient Rome were sincere in their worship of these cruel deities who required appeasement via ritual and prayer. The gods they worshipped were essentially super powered men. I know you don’t revere the gods because if you did you would be contradicting the New and Old testament, therefore you can have no love towards the pagans of the Roman empire. Paul must also be reinterpreted since he didn’t love the gods of Rome and Greece as well he therefore could not have loved the people who he was preaching to. Same with the other apostles.

But what about other figures, like say L Ron Hubbard. Do you revere this man that Scientologists revere? The truth about Xenu and our need to be released of Thetans? If not you cannot love Scientologists.

Do you revere Jim Jones? If not, you cannot love the inhabitants who killed themselves in Jones town.

How far exactly do you want to take this Servant before you admit that we do not need to revere Muhammad in order to love Muslims?

 

[Servant19]

I notice that you didn’t address the pagan gods. If you revere the polyandry, polytheism, polygamy and materialist view of God that Joseph Smith preached then you can (though as a bahai everything that man did and said you would be opposed to so revere him at your own caution).

But how about the pagan gods? The people of ancient Rome were sincere in their worship of these cruel deities who required appeasement via ritual and prayer. The gods they worshipped were essentially super powered men. I know you don’t revere the gods because if you did you would be contradicting the New and Old testament, therefore you can have no love towards the pagans of the Roman empire. Paul must also be reinterpreted since he didn’t love the gods of Rome and Greece as well he therefore could not have loved the people who he was preaching to. Same with the other apostles.

But what about other figures, like say L Ron Hubbard. Do you revere this man that Scientologists revere? The truth about Xenu and our need to be released of Thetans? If not you cannot love Scientologists.

Do you revere Jim Jones? If not, you cannot love the inhabitants who killed themselves in Jones town.

How far exactly do you want to take this Servant before you admit that we do not need to revere Muhammad in order to love Muslims?

I must admit that I stopped reading your post after the Joseph Smith part…apologies. What I posted needs to be said.

The point remains for Zeus, Bob, Steve, Jane or Ron. You can call your God whatever you like, however if that person you revere teaches love and goodly fruits then it is worthy of my absolute and total respect.

If that god, whatever you want to call him or her, transforms your life to a point that you become the source of gratitude and nobility and chastity and the dawning place of Gods light on earth, then your God deserves my reverence.

That transformation of the human heart which can be attributed to your God, whether it be called Jim, Peter or Zoe, is worthy of my reverence.

I can only judge what is Godly by the fruits of the human heart that it produces.

That’s how you show love. I may be wrong but at least the one God will see me as a person that only saw virtue and love in all things rather than removing billions of human hearts from any true relationship with Him.



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[TonyBS]

I notice that you didn’t address the pagan gods.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Job 34:19 who shows no partiality to princes, nor regards the rich more than the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

It is our eyes that have the PLANKS, are we not told to remove those first, before the splinter is removed from others.

Regards Tony.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I must admit that I stopped reading your post after the Joseph Smith part…apologies. What I posted needs to be said.

The point remains for Zeus, Bob, Steve, Jane or Ron. You can call your God whatever you like, however if that person you revere teaches love and goodly fruits then it is worthy of my absolute and total respect.

If that god, whatever you want to call him or her, transforms your life to a point that you become the source of gratitude and nobility and chastity and the dawning place of Gods light on earth, then your God deserves my reverence.

That transformation of the human heart which can be attributed to your God, whether it be called Jim, Peter or Zoe, is worthy of my reverence.

I can only judge what is Godly by the fruits of the human heart that it produces.

That’s how you show love. I may be wrong but at least the one God will see me as a person that only saw virtue and love in all things rather than removing billions of human hearts from any true relationship with Him.



.

Your changing the topic into something away from your original stance and deflecting (as usual). You stated one cannot love Muslims without revering Muhammad. Now I would have you say you revere Jim Jones (go look him up) if you want to say you love the people who killed themselves at his order.

Also, mentioning various other people who seem to represent all humanity you seemingly do away with condemnation, as if we ought to revere everyone, everyone who has claimed a vision of God. I like to bring it up with bahai because it contrasts so much with what they claim today, but what about Elijah and the priests of Baal? Should they be revered in order to love those Israelites who worshipped Baal? What about the Pharisees whom Jesus called sons of Satan and white washed tombs?

Your vision for the world is so drastically different from that of the message of the bible I can hardly believe you read it at all. You read the parts of it you want, not the whole. But if you want to tell me you love the 918 who killed themselves, tell me you loved Jim Jones. Be consistent with your earlier proclamation.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Job 34:19 who shows no partiality to princes, nor regards the rich more than the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

It is our eyes that have the PLANKS, are we not told to remove those first, before the splinter is removed from others.

Regards Tony.

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands** of those who love me and keep my commandments.**

 

[Servant19]

Your changing the topic into something away from your original stance and deflecting (as usual). You stated one cannot love Muslims without revering Muhammad. Now I would have you say you revere Jim Jones (go look him up) if you want to say you love the people who killed themselves at his order.

Also, mentioning various other people who seem to represent all humanity you seemingly do away with condemnation, as if we ought to revere everyone, everyone who has claimed a vision of God. I like to bring it up with bahai because it contrasts so much with what they claim today, but what about Elijah and the priests of Baal? Should they be revered in order to love those Israelites who worshipped Baal? What about the Pharisees whom Jesus called sons of Satan and white washed tombs?

Your vision for the world is so drastically different from that of the message of the bible I can hardly believe you read it at all. You read the parts of it you want, not the whole. But if you want to tell me you love the 918 who killed themselves, tell me you loved Jim Jones. Be consistent with your earlier proclamation.

I have one question for you:

Did Jim Jones produce fruits which many would look at and praise?

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[Servant19]

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands** of those who love me and keep my commandments.**

I have seen many a Christian church with carved images of Jesus and Christians kneeling before them in prayer…

Is the Cross, also, not a symbol of God and His suffering?

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Your changing the topic into something away from your original stance and deflecting (as usual). You stated one cannot love Muslims without revering Muhammad. Now I would have you say you revere Jim Jones (go look him up) if you want to say you love the people who killed themselves at his order.

Also, mentioning various other people who seem to represent all humanity you seemingly do away with condemnation, as if we ought to revere everyone, everyone who has claimed a vision of God. I like to bring it up with bahai because it contrasts so much with what they claim today, but what about Elijah and the priests of Baal? Should they be revered in order to love those Israelites who worshipped Baal? What about the Pharisees whom Jesus called sons of Satan and white washed tombs?

Your vision for the world is so drastically different from that of the message of the bible I can hardly believe you read it at all. You read the parts of it you want, not the whole. But if you want to tell me you love the 918 who killed themselves, tell me you loved Jim Jones. Be consistent with your earlier proclamation.

The Baha’i don’t believe in evil as we do.

 

[JimmyDFG]

I have seen many a Christian church with carved images of Jesus and Christians kneeling before them in prayer…

Is the Cross, also, not a symbol of God and His suffering?

.

Kneeling in front of it and worshipping it are two different things

 

[Servant19]

Kneeling in front of it and worshipping it are two different things

It specifically states “bowing down”

Yet I see this: (I have no problems with this btw, but Ignatian does, I look at the fruits, not the method of worship)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I have one question for you:

Did Jim Jones produce fruits which many would look at and praise?

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No, he lead a cult and killed people. You are the one who has to revere him if you love the people he killed. Beyond this however you’re not seeming to grasp the issue.

You are in error to suggest that in order to love someone we must love who they love or revere who they revere. It is no more necessary to love Muhammad to love Muslims than it is to Love Jim Jones to love the people who followed him. There are other figures and persons we could consider. In order to have loved the Mayans did the Christians missionaries have to revere their priests who sacrificed people to sun? Did Christians have to revere Judaism which rejected Jesus during the Holocaust to save the Jews they could from destruction? Forging baptism certificates and the like? Did Mother Theresa have to respect the Hindu Caste system or Hindu Gods in order to serve and sacrifice herself for Hindus?

Your argument simply doesn’t follow because love is an emotion or a feeling we have towards people which doesn’t necessarily require a reverence towards their leaders, religious teaching or founder. Does a Christian like Nabeel Qureshi who was once a Muslim cease to love the Islamic people or his family when he converts from Islam and considers it and it’s prophet false? Of course not. That is a sincere love despite their difference.

As for your comment on Exodus, you are trying to change the topic once again. This is one of the problems with talking to you servant, you refuse to continue a discussion through. The point is this, that the bahai in general will quote things which talk about the need to accept others and then ignore verses which cut and make a division between people. The Prerogative to worship God alone is a biblical prerogative, an important prerogative that if the context of the conversation were different you would affirm. But when you seek to justify foreign gods, gods which the apostle called demons (in their feast) you undermine that very text of Exodus you claim to uphold. What’s worse is that you make the implication that we worship statues when you don’t actually believe we Christians violate this verse and if you do, I dare you to make the accusation. Being a Bahai however and incapable of offending anyone, for fear of being perceived as hateful you wouldn’t dare say it directly, but you will imply it. Say if it you believe it, otherwise continue on with the topic. Christians are quite prepared to defend their veneration of the saints and Icons and that can be raised in another thread if you so desire.

 

[Servant19]

No, he lead a cult and killed people. You are the one who has to revere him if you love the people he killed. Beyond this however you’re not seeming to grasp the issue.

You are in error to suggest that in order to love someone we must love who they love or revere who they revere. It is no more necessary to love Muhammad to love Muslims than it is to Love Jim Jones to love the people who followed him. There are other figures and persons we could consider. In order to have loved the Mayans did the Christians missionaries have to revere their priests who sacrificed people to sun? Did Christians have to revere Judaism which rejected Jesus during the Holocaust to save the Jews they could from destruction? Forging baptism certificates and the like? Did Mother Theresa have to respect the Hindu Caste system or Hindu Gods in order to serve and sacrifice herself for Hindus?

Your argument simply doesn’t follow because love is an emotion or a feeling we have towards people which doesn’t necessarily require a reverence towards their leaders, religious teaching or founder. Does a Christian like Nabeel Qureshi who was once a Muslim cease to love the Islamic people or his family when he converts from Islam and considers it and it’s prophet false? Of course not. That is a sincere love despite their difference.

As for your comment on Exodus, you are trying to change the topic once again. This is one of the problems with talking to you servant, you refuse to continue a discussion through. The point is this, that the bahai in general will quote things which talk about the need to accept others and then ignore verses which cut and make a division between people. The Prerogative to worship God alone is a biblical prerogative, an important prerogative that if the context of the conversation were different you would affirm. But when you seek to justify foreign gods, gods which the apostle called demons (in their feast) you undermine that very text of Exodus you claim to uphold. What’s worse is that you make the implication that we worship statues when you don’t actually believe we Christians violate this verse and if you do, I dare you to make the accusation. Being a Bahai however and incapable of offending anyone, for fear of being perceived as hateful you wouldn’t dare say it directly, but you will imply it. Say if it you believe it, otherwise continue on with the topic. Christians are quite prepared to defend their veneration of the saints and Icons and that can be raised in another thread if you so desire.

Ignatian, you are not reading any of my posts again.

Please note again that I am looking for goodly fruits! A bad tree produces bad fruits like cults and killing people. I don’t revere Jim Jones since he produced bad fruits.
I revere the good tree that produces good fruits, like Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc.

Get with the game brother!!

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, you are not reading any of my posts again.

Please note again that I am looking for goodly fruits! A bad tree produces bad fruits like cults and killing people. I don’t revere Jim Jones since he produced bad fruits.
I revere the good tree that produces good fruits, like Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc.

Get with the game brother!!

.

“Humbly, unless you truly revere Prophet Muhammad as the mediator of love between God and man, then it is not true love you have for 2 billion people, it is a “glossed over” love.”

Your comment which I was responding to.

You have consistently ignored it because you know that this is a bad argument and cannot defend it.

My point is that you don’t need to revere Muhammad in order to love a Muslim. Either defend this absurd position or admit you were mistaken. I suspect you will ignore my point and say something pretentious and pseudo-intellectual and about love and well being and unity.

 

[Servant19]

“Humbly, unless you truly revere Prophet Muhammad as the mediator of love between God and man, then it is not true love you have for 2 billion people, it is a “glossed over” love.”

Your comment which I was responding to.

You have consistently ignored it because you know that this is a bad argument and cannot defend it.

My point is that you don’t need to revere Muhammad in order to love a Muslim. Either defend this absurd position or admit you were mistaken.

The higher love is to love them for the love that God has instilled in them.

For a Muslim, the source of the love instilled in them is the Prophet Muhammad. I acknowledge and revere the source of that love, and that is Muhammad. Therefore, I revere the Prophet Muhammad.

If, however, the Prophet created not one Saint, not one person that i would admire because of their humility, love and service to all, then I would reconsider my position on my reverence for Prophet Muhammad.

It’s very simple.

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