Commentary on Protestant Beliefs on homosexuality and why I think it is incompatible with "orthodox" Christianity.

[Mannyfit75]

NOTE: This post is not AIMED at those Non-Catholic Christians who continues to affirm that homosexual act is sinful and will not compromise the truth concerning this Christian teaching.

Greetings and Peace in Christ be with you.

I speak to you from Babylon (Iraq) and my time here is 20 days short and I will be returning to the United States after 10 months in Iraq as a member of the United States Army.

I am sure many of you have read the Russian Orthodox patriarch recent statement condemning Protestantism compromising with secularism and praising the Pope.

byzcath.net/index.php/news-mainmenu-49/3010-russian-orthodox-patriarch-praises-pope-rips-protestant-compromises-with-secularism-

In the article it states,

Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, praised Pope Benedict and blasted Protestant bodies that have accepted women’s ordination and caved in to the secular culture on homosexuality.

Noting that the Pope is criticized by “liberal theologians and liberal mass media in the West,” Patriarch Kirill said that “on many public and moral issues his approach fully coincides with the approach of the Russian Orthodox Church. This gives us an opportunity to advocate Christian values together with the Catholic Church, in particular at international organizations and on the international arena.”

On the other hand, some Protestant bodies have “let sinful elements of the world enter their internal world and justify these elements, if they are offered by secular society … secular philosophical liberal stock phrases are repeated within Protestant churches and take root in religious thinking.”

For example, “the word of God is distorted to please the secular liberal standard” on homosexuality, the patriarch noted. “It is written in black and white that it is a sin.”

I wholeheartedly agree what Patriarch of Russia is saying about Protestantism.

I posted a list from Wikipedia that show their position on homosexuals.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

MY OWN WORDS:

I can see why Patriarch is displeased with some Protestant churches who have been seduced by secularism. Since I learned about Protestantism from history class many years ago (high school years and college years), I always have a problem with it. When I started Catholic Apologetics 5 yrs ago, I noticed there is no unity in Protestantism. Protestant churches interpret Scripture in so many ways, there are different beliefs that conflict with one another. It seem to me that the Holy Spirit is giving us a diverse interpretation of Scripture. So I knew right then, Protestantism is not from God.

It was created by Protestant Reformers in the 1500s who had issues with authority. Protestantism also playing dangerously close to “relativism,” the belief that 'what you believe maybe truth to you but I believe it is not truth’

That is the major issue I have with Protestantism and that the individual person can “self interpret” the Bible to fit their own belief. How can they claim they have the Holy Spirit, when they intrepret the passage in Scripture. For example, there are some Non-Catholic Christians who believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist (Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe in real presence). Yet, someone who believes it is only symbolic will only use Scripture to fit his view. There is an apparent contradiction. The truth is that Jesus taught that we ought to literally eat his flesh and drink his blood. We just have to read what the Scripture have so say and intrepret it in the mind of the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit to teach “all truths.”

I do not believe Holy Spirit is the “spirit of contradiction.” The Holy Spirit is the “Spirit of Truth.” I think Protestantism somehow contributed to the rise of relativism due to its diverse interpretation of the Bible. However, I think atheists, gnostics, and non-believers" have show a greater acceptance of relativism than Protestantism. The truth is immutable and we as human beings have no authority to redefine marriage, and what is consider acceptible sexual behavior. If this world continue to depart from the truth of the Gospel, I can only hope and pray that the Christians who are not Catholic will open their eyes and convert and become a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I never had issue with Eastern Orthodox and I admire Patriarch of Russia. I do believe that the Eastern Church and the Catholic Church will be united first. When it happens, only God knows. The issue that is still a problem is the Papal Primacy.

If you noticed, I am criticizing Protestantism doctrine and not individual Protestants.

 

[AmateurPianist]

If you noticed, I am criticizing Protestantism doctrine and not individual Protestants.

Actually you are criticizing only liberal Protestant doctrine, which us evangelical/fundamentalist types also criticize.

 

[mflorence]

Hi Mannyfit75: This was a long posting, so I would waste a lot of space in quoting it. Let’s talk about it. First, a disclosure: I am neither Catholic or homosexual. OK, let’s start. If you would, can you tell me which biblical references to homosexuality have best helped you to form your opinion about that sort of sexual behavior? Thanks!

 

[PaulDupre]

Actually you are criticizing only liberal Protestant doctrine, which us evangelical/fundamentalist types also criticize.

It is important to remember that the umbrella of “Protestantism” is a huge one that encompasses many disparate groups ranging from extremely liberal new-age quasi-Christian groups to very traditional and conservative groups that would agree with us Catholics in most particulars.

Many of the groups that we would call “Protestant” would not even use that term to describe themselves.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi Mannyfit75: This was a long posting, so I would waste a lot of space in quoting it. Let’s talk about it. First, a disclosure: I am neither Catholic or homosexual. OK, let’s start. If you would, can you tell me which biblical references to homosexuality have best helped you to form your opinion about that sort of sexual behavior? Thanks!

Let me start off that the Catholic Church basing itself on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Her Teaching office have always condemned homosexual behavior as grave matter. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also states. It is not my authority to question moral and faith issues concerning doctrine on homosexuality.

The truth, like I said cannot be compromise to fit cultural norms. The truth is immutable.

Here are some Catholic Tracts I pulled off from Catholic Answers website:

Some argue that neither the Bible nor apostolic Tradition condemn the practice of homosexuality. Passages such as Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and Jude 7 serve as ample proof that Scripture indeed condemns homosexuality. Below is ample proof from Tradition. The Fathers are especially harsh against the practice of pederasty, the homosexual corruption of boys by men.

The Didache

You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born (Didache 2:2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth (Letter of Barnabas 10 [A.D. 74]).

You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such (ibid.).

Justin Martyr

We have been taught that to expose newly born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And anyone who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods (First Apology 27 [A.D. 151]).

Clement

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402frs.asp

 

[Mannyfit75]

In addition to the quote I cited, here are some NT text condemning homosexual behavior.

The following New Testament passages deal with homosexual acts:

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Rom 1:26-27)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 6:9-10)
[T]he law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. (1 Tm 1:9-10)
[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)
But God’s displeasure with acting out on homosexuality is depicted as early as Genesis 19 in the Old Testament. Also see Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
—Jim Blackburn

 

[Mannyfit75]

Actually you are criticizing only liberal Protestant doctrine, which us evangelical/fundamentalist types also criticize.

I am criticizing liberal Protestant doctrine. Many of them even use Scripture to distort the truth. Some have even go as to go into the “original language” of the text and make their own 're-interpretation" of Biblical text concerning homosexual acts. I read an article from a Jew (who happens to be an advocate for LGBT Community and claims to have creditals on Biblical studies in Hebrew,etc). It is a total departure from traditional understanding of the Biblical text such as Leviticus, Romans, and others. This is what happens when people interpret Bible to justify certain actions such as “gay marriages, gay clergy.”
It uses the Protestant premise that the Bible Alone is self-interpreting.

I would like to commend Protestant Christians who hold firm that homosexuality is grave sin. I would like to see Protestant Pastors speak out against their Protestant brothers who now embraces gay clergy, gay marriage and blessing. I have not see that in many Evangelical circles, perhaps I am missing something. So far, I have seen the Russian Patriarch and the Pope condemning the acceptance of the gay culture. Our voice need to be loud enough that others will noticed.

 

[mflorence]

Hi Mannyfit75: Thank you for all the replies. I see you feel very strongly on this subject. Before we move on, may I ask another question? I know that you feel that homosexuality is a very bad thing, so would you share your ideas on what might be done about it? What steps should our society take in regard to this problem? We know that a lot of things are bad - for sickness, we develop treatments, for crimes we prescribe punishments. By nature we humans are problem solvers, and when we start a discourse on a problem, our thinking tends to focus on what to do about it. What to do about homosexuality Mannyfit75?

 

[Nicea325]

I am criticizing liberal Protestant doctrine. Many of them even use Scripture to distort the truth. Some have even go as to go into the “original language” of the text and make their own 're-interpretation" of Biblical text concerning homosexual acts. I read an article from a Jew (who happens to be an advocate for LGBT Community and claims to have creditals on Biblical studies in Hebrew,etc). It is a total departure from traditional understanding of the Biblical text such as Leviticus, Romans, and others. This is what happens when people interpret Bible to justify certain actions such as “gay marriages, gay clergy.”
It uses the Protestant premise that the Bible Alone is self-interpreting.

I would like to commend Protestant Christians who hold firm that homosexuality is grave sin. I would like to see Protestant Pastors speak out against their Protestant brothers who now embraces gay clergy, gay marriage and blessing. I have not see that in many Evangelical circles, perhaps I am missing something. So far, I have seen the Russian Patriarch and the Pope condemning the acceptance of the gay culture. Our voice need to be loud enough that others will noticed.

I agree.Many non-Catholic churches have become ‘democratic’ and seem to gratify to personal emotions and beliefs (aka: homosexuality) than adbide to what God says.

 

[cargau]

Hi Mannyfit75: Thank you for all the replies. I see you feel very strongly on this subject. Before we move on, may I ask another question? I know that you feel that homosexuality is a very bad thing, so would you share your ideas on what might be done about it? What steps should our society take in regard to this problem? We know that a lot of things are bad - for sickness, we develop treatments, for crimes we prescribe punishments. By nature we humans are problem solvers, and when we start a discourse on a problem, our thinking tends to focus on what to do about it. What to do about homosexuality Mannyfit75?

Sin, by its very nature is a product of our humanity. There is no “cure” for sin like there is a vaccine for polio. We can’t take a pill and never sin again. Sin is always before us and thus always poses a threat to our will to be holy.

But, there are weapons. There is prayer, reconciliation, fasting and of course, the Eucharist. Homosexuality is problematic for a couple of theological reasons. First, the sexual union requires that the act must be life giving and love giving. It must be both procreative and unitive. Homosexuality can never serve these requirements. Secondly, the sexual act must be reserved for those bound by matrimony. All unmarried people are called to a chastity that involves refraining from sexual activity.

So, while there is no magic bullet that will wipe out any sin, it is encumbant upon our ecclesiastical leaders to lead us and guide us in truth. Condoning, even encouraging sinful behavior that has the potential to jeopardize another’s soul is not love and tolerance, it is a copout to the whims of a society that has lost its way.

 

[mflorence]

So, while there is no magic bullet that will wipe out any sin, it is encumbant upon our ecclesiastical leaders to lead us and guide us in truth. Condoning, even encouraging sinful behavior that has the potential to jeopardize another’s soul is not love and tolerance, it is a copout to the whims of a society that has lost its way.

Thanks cargau: You said that it’s incumbent upon our ecclesiastical leaders to guide us in truth. I would say that this is rather problematic in regard to this subject, since so many ecclesiastical leaders are homosexuals. It’s further compounded by the fact that you can’t always tells which ones are. Of course, no one can say for sure how many church leaders are homosexuals, but Fr. Donald Cozzens, Writer in Residence at John Carroll University, a Jesuit university near Cleveland, Ohio estimates that it is somewhere between 25% and 50%. I don’t know if his numbers are right or wrong, but they fit my own personal experiences, and he’s a bit closer to the subject than I. You mention that condoning or encouraging sinful behavior jeopardizes the souls of others, and I would have to say that leading a flock when you actually participate in those behaviors might well be ruinous to both the leaders and the ones they lead. What to do? Anyway, since you and I are not homosexuals (I take it that you’re not), then why are we having a discourse on the subject? I have lots of issues of my own that I should work on, and you may have a few too, so why are we discussing how evil other people’s sins are?

 

[cargau]

Thanks cargau: You said that it’s incumbent upon our ecclesiastical leaders to guide us in truth. I would say that this is rather problematic in regard to this subject, since so many ecclesiastical leaders are homosexuals. It’s further compounded by the fact that you can’t always tells which ones are. Of course, no one can say for sure how many church leaders are homosexuals, but Fr. Donald Cozzens, Writer in Residence at John Carroll University, a Jesuit university near Cleveland, Ohio estimates that it is somewhere between 25% and 50%. I don’t know if his numbers are right or wrong, but they fit my own personal experiences, and he’s a bit closer to the subject than I. You mention that condoning or encouraging sinful behavior jeopardizes the souls of others, and I would have to say that leading a flock when you actually participate in those behaviors might well be ruinous to both the leaders and the ones they lead. What to do? Anyway, since you and I are not homosexuals (I take it that you’re not), then why are we having a discourse on the subject? I have lots of issues of my own that I should work on, and you may have a few too, so why are we discussing how evil other people’s sins are?

While I personally don’t favor admitting homosexuals to Holy Orders, I do believe that priests and bishops, like us are sinners. They may lie, cheat, steal or any other form of sin. That does not disqualify them from being leaders in truth and holiness. I do not choose to attack homosexuals, just trying to get accross that the homosexual act (as the Catechism states) is disordered.

We are having a discourse on this because it is a Catholic forum for discussing such subjects and because the OP brought up the topic as it relates to various protestant traditions. If you are not comfortable discussing this subject, I suggest you refrain from replying.

And, finally, While I do not suffer from SSA, I do have sins I regret and struggle with. We all do. So what! That was not the point of the discussion. And even though I am not a homosexual, I am still free to talk about the subject. My discussing this does not make me a homophobe or a bigot…

 

[mflorence]

Let me start off that the Catholic Church basing itself on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Her Teaching office have always condemned homosexual behavior as grave matter. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also states. It is not my authority to question moral and faith issues concerning doctrine on homosexuality.

The truth, like I said cannot be compromise to fit cultural norms. The truth is immutable.

Here are some Catholic Tracts I pulled off from Catholic Answers website:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402frs.asp

Hi Mannyfit75: there are many writings you could quote, but I asked for which BIBLICAL references to homosexuality have best helped you to form your opinion about that sort of sexual behavior? That does not include Didache, Epistle of Barnabas and some of the others you posted. All of these have to relate back to the Bible for their authority as would most anything religious. If we don’t limit it to the source I think you can agree that we would go all over the place. So, if you would, can you please just list your Biblical sources. You did list some, but let’s just get them in one place if we can. Thanks!

 

[mflorence]

While I personally don’t favor admitting homosexuals to Holy Orders, I do believe that priests and bishops, like us are sinners. They may lie, cheat, steal or any other form of sin. That does not disqualify them from being leaders in truth and holiness. I do not choose to attack homosexuals, just trying to get accross that the homosexual act (as the Catechism states) is disordered.

We are having a discourse on this because it is a Catholic forum for discussing such subjects and because the OP brought up the topic as it relates to various protestant traditions. If you are not comfortable discussing this subject, I suggest you refrain from replying.

And, finally, While I do not suffer from SSA, I do have sins I regret and struggle with. We all do. So what! That was not the point of the discussion. And even though I am not a homosexual, I am still free to talk about the subject. My discussing this does not make me a homophobe or a bigot…

Thank You cargau: I am very comfortable with the subject. My original post in this thread was asking the person who initiated it to discuss Biblical sources so that we might discuss them. In return, I got a mix of every sort of writing and then some other stuff from you. Just trying to have a clear and focused discussion on BIBLICAL references, meaning Old testament or New Testament.And yes, your views are most appreciated by me. Thanks!

 

[Jon_Hus]

Lots of places to comment but here is a good place to start:

I think Protestantism somehow contributed to the rise of relativism due to its diverse interpretation of the Bible… If this world continue to depart from the truth of the Gospel, I can only hope and pray that the Christians who are not Catholic will open their eyes and convert and become a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church…

For one thing Manny, liberal protestants do not hold the Bible in the same high regard as conservative/evangelical/fundamentalists. I think that you know this or at least you should know this, anyway, now you do know it. It is like non-church goers who claim to be catholic but have nothing to do with the teachings of the catholic church. Do you appreciate it when non-catholics use them as examples of catholic behavior when it is not typical?

The reason why I personally see homosexuality as a sin is because the Bible defines it as a sin. The Pope happens to be right on this one. We are going to pay a hugh price for allowing this behavior to permiate our churches and our society. Not because some churches preach against it, but because the Bible clearly teaches that God will judge those who practice it and those who encourage it.

Evangelical/conservative/fundamental protestants are not going to become catholics because the liberal wing of the protestant church is in deep sin, be it gay clergy or women pastors or abortion. We are already at odds with them, none of this is new to us and we don’t fellowship with them. By the same token, the same Bible that condems behavior like homosexuality also raises issues within the practice of the RCC. I know you don’t like to hear that but if Rome wants to make nice with conservative protestants, condeming what conservatives already hold to be sin is not very productive in my view.

You say you are not bashing individual protestants. Ok, fair enough, but if that’s the case, what exactly then is the point of your discussion?