Commentary: The “Secret” Sacrament of the Archbishop of Canterbury

[Catholic_Dude]

Another Catholic pointed this story out to me:

“The “Secret” Sacrament of the Archbishop of CanterburyBy Randy Sly”
An on-going story revolving around the activities of the Archbishop of Canterbury will not go away quietly. At the end of November the archbishop presided at a secret Eucharistic service with a group of homosexual Anglicans in London. While the event did, in fact, take place, it really wasn’t much of a secret, it upset many church leaders within Anglicanism, and it points to a fatal flaw.

WASHINGTON (Catholic Online) – Since September rumors had been flying around England of a secret Communion service scheduled to be held at St. Peter’s, Eaton Square, for homosexual, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clergy and their partners with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, presiding.

A September 18, 2007 article in The Times Online even carried the title of his sermon, “Present realities and future possibilities for lesbians and gay men in the Church”.

(read the link for more)

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=26571

This is simply SCANDELOUS. We are living in the age where I think the Episcopal and Anglican traditions are going to officially crumble.
Also I will bet we are going to see a lot more of them coming into the Catholic Church.

Thoughts?

 

[O.S.Luke]

Since the Times has always been hostile to the Church, I wouldn’t give one second’s credence to any take they have on any story about the Church - Protestant or Catholic. I can’t believe an official Catholic news service would even quote them as a source, given the things the Times has commented on about the Catholic Church in the past.

If you read it in the media, believe maybe half of it and disbelieve the other half. Your guess is as good as anyone’s on which half to believe, though.

Given the Windsor Report, and the fact that the Episcopal Church is on the outs with the Anglican Communion over homosexuality, I’d say the Times was just trying to stir up something that wasn’t there.

 

[RWMorris]

This is simply SCANDELOUS. We are living in the age where I think the Episcopal and Anglican traditions are going to officially crumble.
Also I will bet we are going to see a lot more of them coming into the Catholic Church.

Thoughts?

I was episcopal until I couldn’t stand it anymore. After the bishopric ordination of gay guy robinson in 2003, I prayed to God for guidance. God asked me, “Why not join My real Church?” I could think of a good reason not to. At Easter 2006, I became Catholic. As some of you can tell from my posts I still have a strong protestant streak in me, but God is working on me.

Too bad, about Anglicanism. I pray that the conservatives will see the light and come home to Rome.

 

[nsper7]

What a mess…

As a soon-to-be confirmed Episcopalian, I am not pleased with this occurrence. In reading the rest of the article you linked to, it looks like the Archbishop may have violated Canon Law in holding a ‘secret communion’ with gay clergy and not informing the Bishop of London.

I hope everyone here knows that not all Anglicans/Episcopalians are in favor of what is going on. If you read the rest of the article, you’ll see several Anglicans coming out against the Archbishops’s actions.

It seems the Archbishop is trying to appease both sides (theologically conservative and liber), which has historically been shown doesn’t work. If this keeps up, there maybe a MAJOR schism in the Anglican Communion. So far, most of what has been termed ‘schisms’ is really individual churches and diocese changing loyalty to a different Province (i.e. I attended a church that separated from the Episcopal Church and was now aligned with the Anglican Church of Kenya), but remaining within the Communion itself. If the Archbishop of Canterbury get too liberal, the conservative Anglicans may be forced into either splitting from the Anglican Communion and perhaps putting a different Primate up as primus inter pares, perhaps one from one of the more conservative Provinces (i.e. Kenya). Or Anglicans will just abandon their ‘denomination’ and seek a new one.

The problem with the latter is that Anglicanism is in some ways the only denomination that seeks that ‘via media’ between Roman Catholic and Reformed. For me, what keeps me within the Anglican Communion/Episcopal Church is that I agree with the precepts in the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion and I like the liturgy and history (including the Creeds and Apostolic Succession) of the Anglican Communion. Obviously, I strongly disagree with the move towards theological liberalism parts of the Communion seem to be taking.

In talking to a friend of mine the other day who is also unhappy with the liberal slide that the Episcopal Church is going down said that, for her, the big issue of whether to stay with the Episcopal Church will come if/when she decides to have children. After all, as a reasoning adult, I think (and I hope) that I can recognize the difference between the foundational theology (i.e. the Creeds and 39 Articles) and the stuff that is being added on by people. Unfortunately, a young child will not be able to grasp that.

Thus, at that point, I may find myself joining a church schismed from the Episcopal Church, but still a part of the Anglican Communion (the first Anglican church I attended was aligned with the Anglican Church of Kenya), or I’ll find myself leaving the denomination all-together, which I don’t want to do, but how can one stay in a church if the theology is off-the-wall, even if the liturgy and history are good?

One person I know (who suffers from OCD like I do) is thinking of joining the RCC (I don’t know if it is because of theological reasons or other reasons). For me, I don’t know what I’ll do if I decide to abandon the denomination? I may rejoin a more Protestant church (for example, prior to getting involved in the Anglican church, I was a member of non-denominational Restorationist church), but I won’t be too thrilled about losing that history and liturgy.

 

[ibkc]

nsper7, you outline the exact reasons why I did not consider returning to the church in which I was baptised as a baby and confirmed as a teenager - the Episcopal Church. That church of 25 years ago no longer exists. Going to one of the more conservative options is not an option for me, as there are none around here within a reasonable driving distance. And, I really didn’t look forward to bringing up a child in a faith that is fraught with so much division. I looked to Catholicism and have found it to be exactly what I always needed all along, anyway. I hope you can find a good solution for yourself.

 

[nsper7]

I admit I am reticent to leave the Episcopal Church (I admit am still very new, only getting involved with them in September '07 and only getting involved in Anglicanism, through a church affiliated with the Anglican Church of kenya, a couple months before that). I truly feel that Anglicanism (with the two Sacraments [availability of the five ‘lesser Sacraments’ [not technically ordained by Christ, but tracable through the Apostles], the ‘via media’, the Creeds, the liturgy, the Apostolic Succession, the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, etc) is the most complete denomination looking to the RC/Orthodox and Reformed Christianity. The Episcopal Church is the American Province of the Anglican Communion.

Although I could switich to a church affiliated with a different Province, I ask why should I leave the church because some people have gotten sucked into theological liberalism? Did Paul tell the theologically-acceptable Corinthians to leave the Corinthian Church and go join with some other church? No, he did not. Instead, shouldn’t I try to challenge this ‘junk theology’ like others are?

Although, if necessary, I would go back to a more Reformed church, I admit I’d feel like I’m missing something without that historical connection and good liturgy, but I do believe that theology trumps liturgy (what good is a nice ritual if there is no true theology behind it?).

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

What a mess…

Thus, at that point, I may find myself joining a church schismed from the Episcopal Church, but still a part of the Anglican Communion (the first Anglican church I attended was aligned with the Anglican Church of Kenya), or I’ll find myself leaving the denomination all-together, which I don’t want to do, but how can one stay in a church if the theology is off-the-wall, even if the liturgy and history are good?

nsper7:

Look into those Catholic churches which are Anglican Use. These are former Episcopalian parishes which have wholesale left to come home. They retain their Rite and their priests. Nothing changes.

Even under the wide umbrella of the Church of Christ (the Catholic Church and all her Rites, Uses and Traditions) everything these Christians believe will not alter one iota because of Rome.

St Mary of Wellsingham in Houston is one I have frequented many times while visiting my family (parishoners there).

It VERY Catholic.

Robert

PS And I would be wary of any organization which calls itself a “Restoration Church.” What is there to be restored? Whatever they claim (by way of Sacraments, teachings and the Spirit) has always been with the Catholic Church.

Remember: mormons think everyone went down the drain and they [through their goofy scriptures] have ‘restored’ Jesus’ Church.

Caveat Emptor

Robert, again

 

[GKC]

nsper7:

Look into those Catholic churches which are Anglican Use. These are former Episcopalian parishes which have wholesale left to come home. They retain their Rite and their priests. Nothing changes.

Even under the wide umbrella of the Church of Christ (the Catholic Church and all her Rites, Uses and Traditions) everything these Christians believe will not alter one iota because of Rome.

St Mary of Wellsingham in Houston is one I have frequented many times while visiting my family (parishoners there).

It VERY Catholic.

Robert

PS And I would be wary of any organization which calls itself a “Restoration Church.” What is there to be restored? Whatever they claim (by way of Sacraments, teachings and the Spirit) has always been with the Catholic Church.

Remember: mormons think everyone went down the drain and they [through their goofy scriptures] have ‘restored’ Jesus’ Church.

Caveat Emptor

Robert, again

Anglican Use churches, Like Our Lady of Walsingham, do tend to be conservative. The liturgy, in the Book of Divine Worship, is based on TEC 1979 prayer book, Rite 1, with changes as required. Not my first choice, but …

But if nsper7 has troubling finding a traditional Anglican church (say, one in the Continuum), he’s going to have an enormous problem locating one of the 7-8 Anglican Use parishes, esp. if he’s outside Texas.

And from his statements, he appears to be on the more reformed side of historic Anglicanism. I’m not sure how comfortable he would be nearer Rome.

GKC

*Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus *

 

[puzzleannie]

in the last 10 years I have worked with at least 2 or 3 Anglicans or Episcopalians each year who are entering the Catholic Church, some of them two generations in one family. Ironically, most of them have been from families who originally became Episcopalian in the days after V2 when they experience rapid changes in CAtholic liturgy and teaching, and became convinced the Episcopalians retained more authentic liturgy and doctrine. Most recently one gentleman, whose son and grandchildren also converted eventually, told me that not since days of the Tudors have Anglicans–he meant worshippers in churches derived from English tradition–experienced more sacrilege and desecration of liturgy, priesthood, sacraments, or more heresy.

 

[cyberjacques]

Although I could switich to a church affiliated with a different Province, I ask why should I leave the church because some people have gotten sucked into theological liberalism? Did Paul tell the theologically-acceptable Corinthians to leave the Corinthian Church and go join with some other church? No, he did not. Instead, shouldn’t I try to challenge this ‘junk theology’ like others are?

It’s important to remember that the Corinthian Church wasn’t a separate denomination. It was still part of the main body of the only church in existence at the time, the Catholic Church.

If I may ask in the spirit of understanding, what is it that prevents you from joining the Catholic Church? It seems to me that the parts of the Episcopal Church that you like are the Catholic parts, and the parts you don’t like are the un-Catholic parts. If the Episcopal Church backslides far enough into liberalism that you want to leave, why would you choose another church that has even less of the things you like instead of investigating Catholicism? The Traditional Anglican Communion, which shares your concerns, has been negotiating for several years in an effort to come back to Rome. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with them?

 

[GKC]

in the last 10 years I have worked with at least 2 or 3 Anglicans or Episcopalians each year who are entering the Catholic Church, some of them two generations in one family. Ironically, most of them have been from families who originally became Episcopalian in the days after V2 when they experience rapid changes in CAtholic liturgy and teaching, and became convinced the Episcopalians retained more authentic liturgy and doctrine. Most recently one gentleman, whose son and grandchildren also converted eventually, told me that not since days of the Tudors have Anglicans–he meant worshippers in churches derived from English tradition–experienced more sacrilege and desecration of liturgy, priesthood, sacraments, or more heresy.

That last sentence is likely true. An Anglican must be careful where he steps these days.

GKC

 

[GKC]

It’s important to remember that the Corinthian Church wasn’t a separate denomination. It was still part of the main body of the only church in existence at the time, the Catholic Church.

If I may ask in the spirit of understanding, what is it that prevents you from joining the Catholic Church? It seems to me that the parts of the Episcopal Church that you like are the Catholic parts, and the parts you don’t like are the un-Catholic parts. If the Episcopal Church backslides far enough into liberalism that you want to leave, why would you choose another church that has even less of the things you like instead of investigating Catholicism? The Traditional Anglican Communion, which shares your concerns, has been negotiating for several years in an effort to come back to Rome. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with them?

He speaks well of the XXXIX Articles. Not a sign of Anglo-Catholicism.

GKC

 

[cyberjacques]

He speaks well of the XXXIX Articles. Not a sign of Anglo-Catholicism.

GKC

I read the 39 Articles, and you’re right, there are several articles that are specifically anti-Catholic. The rest sounds like pretty standard Christianity though, unless I missed something. But those anti-Catholic articles are pretty common in people that don’t understand Catholicism, and I think that most people who investigate the Church with an honest heart will see the flawed nature of those particular articles.

 

[slyboots]

Edited for stupidity. Next time I will read the thread more carefully.

 

[BamaRider]

As some of you can tell from my posts I still have a strong protestant streak in me, but God is working on me.

That ain’t always a bad thing, keeps us cradles honest.

Too bad, about Anglicanism. I pray that the conservatives will see the light and come home to Rome.

:dancing:

 

[BamaRider]

Look into those Catholic churches which are Anglican Use. These are former Episcopalian parishes which have wholesale left to come home. They retain their Rite and their priests. Nothing changes

I don’t undersand. These parishes converted en masse? And if they did how did they retain their rite and priests? It was my impression Rome did not recognize the Apostolic chain of the Episcopalians. That is not correct?

 

[GKC]

I don’t undersand. These parishes converted en masse? And if they did how did they retain their rite and priests? It was my impression Rome did not recognize the Apostolic chain of the Episcopalians. That is not correct?

Anglican Use parishes are formed around former Episcopal priests who are converts to the RCC under the Pastoral Provision of JPII (which is not limited to Episcopalians). Such priests are ordained absolutely, due to the judgement rendered in Apostolicae Curae, with respect to Anglican clergy.

The Anglican Use liturgy, found in the Book of Divine Worship, is based on the 1979 Episcopal prayer book, Rite 1.

Anglican Use parishes were intended to ease the transition of former Episcopalians who convert en masse (so to speak). It is not a formal Rite in the RCC, and is not intended to be a permanent situation, though some of the trophy parishes in Texas are likely to be around a long time. There have never been more than about 12-15 such parishes, total, and about 6-8 exist now.
One was in my home town, for a few years, before becoming first a standard NO parish, then the local indult TLM parish.

Our Lady of Atonement, in Texas, has a good website.

GKC

*Anglicanus Catholicus *

 

[GKC]

I read the 39 Articles, and you’re right, there are several articles that are specifically anti-Catholic. The rest sounds like pretty standard Christianity though, unless I missed something. But those anti-Catholic articles are pretty common in people that don’t understand Catholicism, and I think that most people who investigate the Church with an honest heart will see the flawed nature of those particular articles.

The Articles are a mixed bag, as you say. Some are a form of Mere Christianity, which any Trinitarian Christian will affirm. Some are not. Anglo-Catholics can gloss them in various ways that make them more Catholic in tone. Or, they can do what most Anglicans do, ignore them. The Articles are not binding on any Anglican, except in two minor and technical senses, on the ordinands of the Church of England, and in one African Anglican jurisdiction. Otherwise, worldwide, no Anglican is required to take the slightest notice of them. They are history, statecraft as religion; how Elizabeth I chose to govern her fractious Church.

GKC

*Anglicanus Catholicus *

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Since the Times has always been hostile to the Church, I wouldn’t give one second’s credence to any take they have on any story about the Church - Protestant or Catholic. I can’t believe an official Catholic news service would even quote them as a source, given the things the Times has commented on about the Catholic Church in the past.

If you read it in the media, believe maybe half of it and disbelieve the other half. Your guess is as good as anyone’s on which half to believe, though.

Given the Windsor Report, and the fact that the Episcopal Church is on the outs with the Anglican Communion over homosexuality, I’d say the Times was just trying to stir up something that wasn’t there.

So the Times is not a good source to look to?

I looked on google news but I didnt find many other sources mentioning this story, but it does look like the event did in fact take place. I saw nothing that indicated the Times made up this story.

 

[cyberjacques]

The Articles are not binding on any Anglican…

…no Anglican is required to take the slightest notice of them.

Seriously? Then why do they cling to it? Why even cite them at all? Perhaps one of our Anglican friends can explain this to us.