Commercialism and Secularism of Christmas Extremely Depressing

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In Canada the secularist commercialism of Christmas begins the day after Halloween when giant retailers go full swing with Christmas decorations, lights, music and everything else you can think of the beats to the drum. Any wonder why many people working in the retail departments hate Christmas music and all the decor and consumers faced seeing and listening to all the fanfare.

Once the religious aspect of Christmas dawns upon the hearts of people during Advent and then in Church on Christmas Eve, most are too tired to give the real significance of Christmas serious thought.

In the United States the fanfare of Thanksgiving Day and the following Black Friday herald in the secular commercialism of Christmas. How many of us Catholics have to fight through all this mindset garbage that dulls the senses.

Christmas is most often the most despised, hated and unwanted seasons of the year.
Archbishop Fulton Sheen said; Divinity Is Always Where One Least Expects To Find It But its only those who stoop their minds and immensely humble their hearts who see what the significance of Christmas is truly about from a spiritual aspect.

But every year due to secular influences you honestly have to fight through the depressing aspect of it. Its not because I am a Catholic that I don’t seriously understand the profound religious nature of Christmas that I do love.

It’s not easy when your mind is bombarded and depressed by how the world sees Christmas and living with the after thoughts of loved ones who died Christmas Eve and the season up to the Epiphany. But I do manage to fight through this every year to seriously reflect on the beauty of the Reason Christ came to save a fallen world.

Peace
Chris
 
My suggestion, do your Christmas shopping at Christian bookstores.
 
I hear you, but I guess the other extreme is to take a Calvinistic approach & do away with all merry making & such. It’s hard to keep a Catholic balance between the two excesses.I think the economy right now is having some effect on the commercial side & I guess we can do our part to fight the secularism by putting up creches, attending Mass & wishing everyone a “Merry Christmas!”
Remembering those who’ve passed away is especially hard at Christmastime.I hear you there, too.
 
Well, here’s a little (actually quite large) bit of non-secular Pittsburgh Christmas decoration to cheer you up. It stands proudly next to the U.S. Steel building.

 
I totally understand! I work in retail and all that that implies…
Those of us that must do this type of work are expected to start shifts earlier each year; as early as 3AM (Friday after Thanksgiving) and work shifts that end later each year - 12 midnight this year. We are bombarded with secular “Christmas music” from FAT to Christmas eve…and then back to the regular awful noise on the overhead speakers… It’s buy, buy, buy, sell, sell, sell and then, BANG!, it’s 12/26 and it’s over.
We must smile and be pleasant to those who verbally abuse us in every way and by the time Christmas day finally arrives I’d just sleep through the entire day.
BUT, those of us who know what it’s truely about, also know that this is a season of Advent, of the Holy Nativity and the Ephiphany and find our joy in this knowledge.
Thanks be to God!
 
centurionguard, I just try to do what I can to focus on the spiritual side.

Of course, that is easier in one way for me as I have no immediate family whatsoever. Sometimes I get invited to celebrations on the actual day by a friend or once in awhile extended family. But that’s just for a meal and a bit of light socializing if that takes place - no shopping involved - whew! :coolinoff: And I don’t have money for shopping anyway. Probably even if I did, I’d shop online now that that option is available.

catsrus, I am so with you about the retail thing. The employees get the short end of the stick and the frazzled nerves. And ridiculously low pay for what they have to put up with. Wish the CEO of each big store had to work the final week before Christmas as an associate* - wouldn’t *that *be a sight to see…bwahahaha!:bigyikes:

I’ll pray for you and all retail employees. I even worked some years in a Catholic bookstore, and felt envious of the customers who were buying religious items to enhance their own spiritual experience of Advent while I was too frazzled - didn’t have a prayer left in me sometimes.😦

Don’t mean to sound whiney - but catsrus speaks the truth about the retail world.:sad_yes: The sad thing is, it wouldn’t have to be that way if the corporations would consider that their employees are human beings and if some shoppers would show consideration, wait their turn, be courteous and not cranky, etc.

The best solution I have found is to fight - fight the fatigue, the cynical feelings, the dysfunctional family woes, whatever your particular Advent/Christmas crosses are to bear. I do so by focusing on the spiritual (imperfectly, as in some days of Advent I forget or am out late or tired to light the candles and pray for that day, so I have to make up and try not to get too far behind or give up).

I do also put my Christmas tree, with creche underneath, during Advent, as well as my Advent wreath - not everyone does and I respect that, but it helps me remember happier times when my parents were alive and the lights keep me from getting winter depression. It calms me and brings me peace and joy.

*** Personal pet peeve -IMO - I think replacing “clerk” with “associate” was one of many pretentious and insipid things big retail did as a meaningless gesture to sugarcoat the way they pay and treat their employees poorly.**
 
Chris, I think Archbishop Sheen may have answered our question. We have the same commercialization, the same secular slant to Christmas here in the States. It’s a challenge to escape the bombardment and non-Christian hoopla which surrounds what is, and should be a profoundly sacred season.

Realistically, there is probably little we can do to counter the media and advertising
frenzy between now and Christmas. We can though, in our own thoughts and prayers, keep the season holy and appropriate. We can remember that we have a remote for our TV’s and can switch the channel when the hype becomes overwhelming.

We have, or should have, the quiet space or room in our homes ,where we can be one on one with Our Lord. Where we can pray, where we can meditate, where we can focus on the true meaning of this most sacred and holy season. I’m certainly going to attempt this, and I’ll pray for you in your efforts to keep this beautiful season filled with the promise of Christ.
 
NZL is very, VERY secular, and Christmas down here is all about presents and gluttony. Even some of our “Christmas parades” are not even remotely Christmassy, - Bart Simpson, Garfield, Spongbob and a Santa, usually you expect elves and such.

I love Christmas deocrations, what I don’t love is the secular version being shoved down my throat when I go to by Candy Canes - which have an interestingly, non-secular history.

Anyway, what I do, and its waaay passive agressive. I write “christmas” instead of “xmas” [though X is apparently how Christ was written back in the day], and I give out very Christian themed Christmas cards to all my secular and atheist friends!

It also helps to brush up on the history of pagan influences within Christmas so its easily to refute the anti-christian Christmas sentiment of “well, you stole it from the pagans before you burned their villages” sort of thing.
 
This has bothered me for quite some time.

I have a solution! No, really. I know it is just a personal fantasy but imagine this: Happy Holidays - December 18th.

Santa, big sales, gifts, reindeer, Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire, Jingle Bells, office parties, big sales, December 16th day after sales / returns, everything.

7 days later, Christmas - real, unblemished Christmas. 7 days later still, the New Year.

Not perfect, but hoping that secular, commercial celebrations will go away is just not realistic. Give them another day and take back the day of Our Lord’s birth.
 
centurionguard said:
In Canada the secularist commercialism of Christmas begins the day after Halloween when giant retailers go full swing with Christmas decorations, lights, music and everything else you can think of the beats to the drum. Any wonder why many people working in the retail departments hate Christmas music and all the decor and consumers faced seeing and listening to all the fanfare.

Once the religious aspect of Christmas dawns upon the hearts of people during Advent and then in Church on Christmas Eve, most are too tired to give the real significance of Christmas serious thought.

In the United States the fanfare of Thanksgiving Day and the following Black Friday herald in the secular commercialism of Christmas. How many of us Catholics have to fight through all this mindset garbage that dulls the senses.
Christmas is most often the most despised, hated and unwanted seasons of the year.
Archbishop Fulton Sheen said; Divinity Is Always Where One Least Expects To Find It But its only those who stoop their minds and immensely humble their hearts who see what the significance of Christmas is truly about from a spiritual aspect.

But every year due to secular influences you honestly have to fight through the depressing aspect of it. Its not because I am a Catholic that I don’t seriously understand the profound religious nature of Christmas that I do love.

It’s not easy when your mind is bombarded and depressed by how the world sees Christmas and living with the after thoughts of loved ones who died Christmas Eve and the season up to the Epiphany. But I do manage to fight through this every year to seriously reflect on the beauty of the Reason Christ came to save a fallen world.

Peace
Chris
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One of our local CVS pharmacies actually started clearing out Halloween merchandise the day before Halloween and started putting up Christmas stuff the day before Halloween. :eek: Yikes. I think once they realize that if a few extra days of Ho-Ho-Ho is better for the bottom line than the Halloween merchandise, we’ll see that date getting moved up further and further.

I, too find this depressing.

Methinks this is another clever way Satan is working in our world, just like making Bibles readily available for everyone How wonderful and happy Christmastime is…time for friends, and most importantly, finding them just the right gift, etc, etc, etc. He has done a most effective job at making the frog-in-the-water shift away from Anticipating and Celebrating the birth of our Lord not by making such seem bad, but by making secular Christmas more “fun”.

I year or two ago I got really overcome by the commercialism and the hype. What I found helpful was two things:
  1. Turning off the TV set and turning on Christmas music…religious Christmas music.
  2. “Escaping” into prayer. Now I’m not into meditative prayer, but the LOTH really helped me focus on Advent.
The Church really knows what she’s dong when she gives us the ligurgical year. 👍
 
I join in the chorus of those dejected by what in the U.S. is an embarrassment. I was just discussing this with my daughter this evening. Neither of us understands how people can turn themselves into animals and shop “savagely” – such as, setting up a tent in front of stores ***on or before Thanksgiving ***(skipping the holiday celebration entirely) and degrading oneself by revealing the extent of one’s enslavement to sheer materiality. These are not classy stores with carefully selected items reflecting the thoughtfulness of the retailer. These are giant warehouse-stores which pander to the capital sin of greed. It’s a perverted frenzy which blasphemes Christmas.

It’s such a profanation of even the spirituality of Christmas, aside from its religious import. I have atheist friends who used to revere the holiday for its nonmaterial traditions, such as its themes of peace, of generosity (not acquisitveness), of fellowship, of lingering over meals with certain rarely seen relatives, of civilized merry-making and memory-making. I don’t even know if they appreciate Christmas as much as they used to. How can one? It’s hard for me, and I have a strong family background in the appreciation of the holiday. Yet I am feeling increasingly like a minority in this respect – bombarded 24/7 with commercial messages as if I’m in the center of an arcade with no escape.

My daughter and I are both very disheartened by it. There needs to be a counter-movement in this country. Refuse to participate in the mania. One thing that can help this rebellion – it’s going to sound contradictory, but it wasn’t, is a habit I used to do. I would start buying with Christmas in mind, as early as mid-year. I wasn’t “Christmas shopping” per se. I simply, when I happened to see something that was small and unique, or very personally appropriate to the recipient – such as something in line with a hobby or a special cherished category (unusual jams, whatever), I would buy the item to keep for the later holiday. I did that with everybody in my extended family. That made the gift meaningful and eliminated the frenzy, not to mention a commercial atmosphere. They were never the kind of obscenely large items that some people are “camping out” for this week.

Just as there is now a Slow Food movement, thoughtful people should participate in a Quiet Holiday or Slow Holiday or Simple Gifts movement.
 
May God grant us the grace to be “salt and light.” Suffer through Advent just as the Jews suffered in waiting long ages for the promised Messiah. Forego the Christmas parties and fork over the cash and time in acts of charity. Then when December 25 rolls around, start off your TWELVE DAYS OF CHRISTMAS! WOOHOO! Spread out those stocking stuffers and gifts for a present for every day, made easy and thrifty with all the after Christmas sales! Or follow the custom of presents on Three Kings Day, January 6th, only after which the lights come down and the “tree of life” is composted. Or give wee gifts daily with the big ones saved for Three Kings Day. It’s so fun to find little thoughtful things like flashlights, magnifying glasses, wee science-y toys like bouncy tetrahedrons, bubble guns, and other delights. Really do this and you will delight in the sacred suffering and final exuberance reflected in the angelic chorus voicing joy to simple shepherds.

Why smelly ol’ shepherds? Hint: the Shepherd-King on a donkey (donkey as productive animal versus destructive war horse), seen in the ultra-orthodox priest-king Melchizedek (whom the Jews suggest was Shem, Noah’s son, or of his familial “school”) is ancient. The Abrahamic remnant of orthodoxy and lineage of God’s Chosen People took up the watch for Messiah started eons earlier. Bishop Sheen notes the earliest Chinese history mentioning a new star catching the emperor’s attention, and the sages looking up it’s pre-recorded import, that of announcing the Chosen One. That’s a long wait, and we do well in recreating this strained but hopeful time in Advent, and unleashing celebrations only upon Christ’s birth day. King of Kings, let us seek to please Thee alone.
 
I find the commercialism and secularism very depressing too.

I noticed the Christmas stuff in the stores around Halloween-that’s ridiculous. And the decorations are out even before Thanksgiving-well, I guess that’s OK because we don’t know how the weather will be come December.

I used to work in a small Catholic bookstore, and it was a penance for me to have to listen to the so-called ‘holiday music’ on the radio (one or other of the local stations start doing all ‘holiday music’ after HALLOWEEN!). I mean, how many times can one endure hearing pieces like, ‘All I Want For Christmas Is You’ and ‘Santa Baby’? :mad: I didn’t mind songs like ‘The Little Drummer Boy’ (original recording by the Harry Simeon Chorale), ‘White Christmas’ (Bing Crosby version), or nice instrumental versions of carols. But a lot of the newer recordings are just awful! Once in awhile I would change the station and listen to the nice classical choral recordings. But it was two against one, and I as the ‘one’ always lost! There were a lot times when I would say, ‘This is ADVENT, NOT CHRISTMAS! Why can’t we be counter-cultural?’

I’m also aggravated by the retail stores that were open yesterday (Thanksgiving) so they could beat the rush of the ‘Black Friday’ shoppers. That’s also ridiculous! Why can’t the stores like Wal-Mart and such close on Thanksgiving so their employees can be with their families? Have we become so greedy?

I did see a sign on one of the local Catholic churches yesterday, when I was on my way to pick a friend up to go to dinner at the home of mutual friends: ‘Wal-Mart Is Not The Only Saving Place.’ Very clever…

SInce I live by myself, I do minimal decoration at home. I put out a icon of the Adoration of the Shepherds with a small brass bell that my late mother’s family brought from Germany. I pray the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary every day from Advent until February 2 (Candlemas Day). On either side of the icon, I have a statue of St. Francis of Assisi (he created the Christmas Crib scene) and a statue of St. Joan of Arc (her birthday is on January 6, the Epiphany).
 
It makes me sick that Christmas is so over-materialized. I mean, for gracious sakes, it’s not as though we all deprive ourselves during the year so that gifts are a special treat! If we want something we go out and buy it, any time we want it! The hypocrisy of the culture to suggest that anyone really needs a gift from anyone when we are all so spoiled and our houses are so full that we need storage space to put it all in!

Both Christian radio stations in my area go Christmas music 24/7 from today through New Year’s. It’s TOO MUCH!!! They justify it by saying it brings people to Christ. OK, whatever. I miss hearing the preachers I listen to.

I will put up our tree today though, but ain’t gonna be no presents under it. Now that the boys are 19 and 17, they understand how privileged they are and they don’t expect a ton of presents.

I used to work retail and Christmas was…unique…It didn’t kill my inner spirit but it sure was intense. And that was 35 years ago. No one died in riots to get stuff but we had lines all through the store and disappointed people when we ran out of black lights and fiber optic lamps.
 
barb_finnegan said:
I find the commercialism and secularism very depressing too.

I noticed the Christmas stuff in the stores around Halloween-that’s ridiculous. And the decorations are out even before Thanksgiving-well, I guess that’s OK because we don’t know how the weather will be come December.

I used to work in a small Catholic bookstore, and it was a penance for me to have to listen to the so-called ‘holiday music’ on the radio (one or other of the local stations start doing all ‘holiday music’ after HALLOWEEN!). I mean, how many times can one endure hearing pieces like, ‘All I Want For Christmas Is You’ and ‘Santa Baby’? :mad: I didn’t mind songs like ‘The Little Drummer Boy’ (original recording by the Harry Simeon Chorale), ‘White Christmas’ (Bing Crosby version), or nice instrumental versions of carols. But a lot of the newer recordings are just awful! Once in awhile I would change the station and listen to the nice classical choral recordings. But it was two against one, and I as the ‘one’ always lost! There were a lot times when I would say, ‘This is ADVENT, NOT CHRISTMAS! Why can’t we be counter-cultural?’

I’m also aggravated by the retail stores that were open yesterday (Thanksgiving) so they could beat the rush of the ‘Black Friday’ shoppers. That’s also ridiculous! Why can’t the stores like Wal-Mart and such close on Thanksgiving so their employees can be with their families? Have we become so greedy?

I did see a sign on one of the local Catholic churches yesterday, when I was on my way to pick a friend up to go to dinner at the home of mutual friends: ‘Wal-Mart Is Not The Only Saving Place.’ Very clever…

SInce I live by myself, I do minimal decoration at home. I put out a icon of the Adoration of the Shepherds with a small brass bell that my late mother’s family brought from Germany. I pray the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary every day from Advent until February 2 (Candlemas Day). On either side of the icon, I have a statue of St. Francis of Assisi (he created the Christmas Crib scene) and a statue of St. Joan of Arc (her birthday is on January 6, the Epiphany).
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I’m not religious…mind-however, yeah, I can see how the season is just so blatantly commercialized that it’s downright pitiful. Kinda silly to say you are celebrating a religious holiday when the true reason is pretty much lost.

That being said, I really am not into the mess. I do some stuff, get presents for friends and my son, simply at this point b/c I feel obligated to. Kinda silly, really…seeing as the whole idea is to give from the heart, not because you feel like it’s something you have to do, but, oh, well.
I don’t really even decorate. I think I put up a little 2 foot tree last year, just 'cause.

My son doesn’t expect much. He never did. Christmas was never much of a thing…pretty much you do it b/c all the people we know do it, and I didn’t want my kid to feel left out. Yeah, it’s pretty pitiful, but there it is.

As to people in retail having to WORK on the holidays? Yeah. I think that’s nothing short of criminal. Now in my profession, we have to work, we have no choice. Sick peeps don’t take a holiday;D and, I really don’t mind working. I work this Christmas (night) and New Year’s eve…it’s not like I am doing anything;D
 
Such thoughtful posts on this thread! I have been blessed by reading them. Learned several things I didn’t know, and was impressed that no one got snarky and the thread didn’t degenerate in to arguing.

One thing I’m reminded of is “A Charlie Brown Christmas,” which was made in the 60s when the commercialization was taking off, as Charlie Brown laments. Snoopy goes overboard decorating his doghouse, Lucy and Violet urge Charlie to get an aluminum Christmas tree, preferably in pink, and so on.

Then comes the turnaround, when Linus recites the Nativity story from the Gospel of Luke, and by the time they all sing “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing” at the end, well, sometimes I’m so touched I’m crying! :bighanky:

And all this in 30 minutes. Get hold of a copy, make some cocoa, and watch it with your kids! ;):christmastree1:
 
This use to bother me more…because I let it and it festered. Its quite easy to get depressed if you are constantly, purposing looking for the secular influences in the season and all the celebrations. BUT, you can change your focus, you can change your point of view. You do not have to buy into the secularism of the season hook, line and sinker. If you know shopping at a certain mall or place triggers the depression, shop online or find a local store to support. If tv triggers the depression, read a book, pick up a good advent book and do some scripture reading. Volunteer at a food bank or soup kitchen. Find other ways to support the religious purpose of the season. You have to feed the attitude or train of thought that there is a religious meaning behind this time of year. Its something you should train yourself to do not just this time of year, but every single day of the year. If you haven’t been minding the store so to speak all the other days of the year, of course the commercialism and secularism of this time of the year is going to make you more depressed. But if you have purposely been focusing on your faith life every day, its much easier to see the religious aspects of this season and find joy.

One thing though, in the OP’s situation, it seems there is a blurring of the lines so to speak, that grieving for lost loved ones has only made focus on the commercialism of this season worse. Its quite easy to be mad at the world when you are grieving and angry that you’ve lost someone close to you, the commercialism is an easy target to place all those hard emotions on. Perhaps it is time to do some healing on missing loved ones, if that’s the real issue that is taking place at this time of the year.
 
PatriciA said:
One thing though, in the OP’s situation, it seems there is a blurring of the lines so to speak, that grieving for lost loved ones has only made focus on the commercialism of this season worse. Its quite easy to be mad at the world when you are grieving and angry that you’ve lost someone close to you, the commercialism is an easy target to place all those hard emotions on. Perhaps it is time to do some healing on missing loved ones, if that’s the real issue that is taking place at this time of the year.
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PatriceA wrote:
One thing though, in the OP’s situation, it seems there is a blurring of the lines so to speak, that grieving for lost loved ones has only made focus on the commercialism of this season worse.
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Your preconceived assumptions here don’t relate my true sentiments why I despise the Commercialism and Secularism during the Christmas season.

Christmas is foremost a religious observance that I personally treasure.
But Christmas too can be a sentimental time filled with both joyful and memories of melancholy in the loss of loved ones. It will be three years next month on Christmas Eve that I buried my beloved Father. It was a happy sullen moment in a beautiful Requiem Mass on Christmas Eve of saying goodbye to someone I dearly loved and respected. But it didn’t get in the way of my religious observance of the True meaning of Christmas.

Might I invite you to read the following
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=401472 Post # 11
A noted poet was once asked in an interview if he could explain one of his poems “in ordinary terms.” He replied with some feeling: “If I could say what I meant in ordinary terms, I would not have had to write such poem.
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From the time of Christ’s birth, the people of God have felt compelled inwardly to write poems about Christmas, composing a single stranded paean of praise spanning down through the centuries, because ultimately the meaning of Christmas resist being fully spelled out “in ordinary terms” Some strands in these poems recur consistently, albeit with infinite varied nuances, becoming as familiar and necessary to the whole of the rhythm of the author. One such nuance is the ever-incredible paradox of the powerless Almighty-as, for instance, in the words about the Incarnation by Saint Hilary, Bishop of Poitiers in France: “We hear the one at whose Word the angels and archangels tremble, cry like a child.
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Other poets speak of the infinite mercy of God, of Hope renewed, or the motherhood of Mary. Still other poetic strands, instead, seem to startle us with a flash of intuition, suddenly casting a new light on what we already know: God became human that we might become human (“St. Augustine”). And through all these poetic strands runs a joyful refrain giving tongue to our deep-seated need to worship: “God’s Son became a human being. All our efforts to fully understand this great mystery are in vain. All that we can do is what the shepherds of the field did…namely, worship, believe and praise God.
No one who has been exposed to any part of this sublime mystery can fail to be affected by it. And yet so often a gnawing doubt assails us:
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Our “real” Christmases, the ones we celebrate with decorated trees and Christmas presents, seem to be lived out under the fluctuation of two very different and yet related realms in society. One is the world of suffering: all that public and private anguish, loneliness and destruction that appear to be irreversibly cut off from the “good cheer” of the season which seems in fact only to deepen the sense of despair for those unfortunate enough to be caught (“on the outside”) of Christmas; on the other hand is the realm of the “Mammon” or the material wealth and greed of society, which seems to have appropriated Christmas for itself, retaining all the appearances of pious sentiment, of lights and color (“and of course, the essential exchanging of gifts”), while emptying our “real” Christmas of all else and in the process, compounding the loneliness and despair for the poor who live on the “outside” of Christmas.
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It is a wonder how such devout Christian beliefs and practices of a simpler age can hold out against such a harsh reality in this world.
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(“God’s Only Beloved Son becoming human is not some light-hearted carefree event in time. In reality it is a scandal when one contemplates the wood of His very crib one day becoming the wood of His Cross. God meets us in the lowliness of a child”)
This then is reality; it is the suffering world, desperately in need of redemption, that cried out for God to come into our world. God answered unexpectedly by becoming a small infant child destined to be martyred. The Christmas celebrated in our secular society, is an illusion that we children of God are called to penetrate and reclaim for reality. “God became human. We did not become God.
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The human dispensation of suffering continues, and it must continue (“if we have something in common with Christ’s suffering”) but it is consecrated by God. And we have become more. We have also been strengthened. Let us trust our life, then, because the holy Eve and Season of Christmas has brought us Light. Let us trust life, because we do not live it alone. God lives it with us.
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Written by a Jesuit Priest (“Alfred Delp”) awaiting execution by the German Nazis.
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Peace
Chris
 
centurionguard said:
PatriceA wrote:

Your preconceived assumptions here don’t relate my true sentiments why I despise the Commercialism and Secularism during the Christmas season.

Christmas is foremost a religious observance that I personally treasure.
But Christmas too can be a sentimental time filled with both joyful and memories of melancholy in the loss of loved ones. It will be three years next month on Christmas Eve that I buried my beloved Father. It was a happy sullen moment of saying goodbye to someone I dearly loved and respected. But it didn’t get in the way of my religious observance of the True meaning of Christmas.

Might I invite you to read the following
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=401472

Peace
Chris
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You can call my thoughts preconceived or assumptions, but they were based on personal experience after losing my own father six years ago and on what you wrote in your own first post.
 
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