Common - but bad - Apologetic Arguments

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Of course I am not suggesting we keep silent.
However - I don’t think I am “giving in” by suggesting that the “images as teaching tool” argument is flawed.
The mere fact that some Protestants think that making any image is a sin is not proof that it is flawed–not when you point out to them that they use pictures for that very purpose–so what is the difference between a statue and a painting? None, that’s what.
AMEN - - yet there WAS a prohibition on making “Unto yourselves”, “graven Images” - unless specifically told to by God - in which case they weren’t made “unto yourselves”.
So, an archaic way of saying that idols were not to be made means we can’t carve/have statues? It was IDOLS not merely statues that were prohibited or God would not have commanded that statues be made. They were not to take IDOLS unto themselves by carving IDOLS. Statues of Jesus and the Saints are NOT idols.
Totally agree with this. 👍
Peace
James
It’s nice we agree on something. :tiphat:
 
One kind of apologetic that I’ve witnessed, and confess I’ve even engaged in myself, which is particularly bad goes something along the lines of:

“I’m Catholic, so I think I have a better understanding of my Faith than you do, and what you’re saying about it is just plain wrong.”

While that might be true sometimes for some people, it’s a great way to put someone’s back up real quick.

… just awful.
 
Obviously the thrust of this prohibition is against worshiping images, as I stated in my post. This point must be made clear to those who claim images were forbidden–a simplistic statement that obscures the truth.

Sorry, but images did help the illiterate, as did paintings, mosiacs, stained glass windows, etc. The fact that the Romans and Greeks made statues and other images supports the fact that many could not read/write. They were used to educate the masses and support their beliefs, just as they were used/are still used in the Church.

Think about small children who can’t read/write, either. But they can view statues, paintings, etc. Images definitely have an effect on their developing minds, hearts, and souls. They certainly did for me. Even though we had become Pentecostals, I still saw in statues images of the holy, the pure, the lovely, the things of God. This is but one reason why the Church in her wisdom did not ban images when this issue was raised very early on in Church history.

We need to educate our separated brethren who make these objections not hide from such issues or pretend they don’t matter, because the do matter–sometimes very much indeed.
Using the argument that the pagans did/do it (for whatever reason) is not going to help, indeed it will totally and utterly strengthen the argument against the use of images and statues.

There were and are faiths that do not use images and statues and yet pass on the faith to their children.

A drawing of Christ and other characters in a children’s Bible or story book is rather different from a statue (often life sized) in a house of worship with candles and flowers in front of it, etc.

Which brings us round to the last point…that these things do INDEED have an effect on children and others. A very powerful effect, and as a child I DID think that we worshiped them.

There was a larger than life sized statue of the crucifixion. Which as far as I knew we worshiped, as it represented Christ, and at Good Friday we kissed it’s feet, and when we entered the church we genuflected ( and it seemed we genuflected when we faced the altar and the statue, we didn’t genuflect towards the tabernacle which was offset.

And in that very same church were life sized or greater statues of Mary, Joseph, and the patron saint, which we also were to bow to (though not genuflect) when we passed them, and people knelt and said prayers before them, and left flowers and lit candles.

In May, a larger than life sized statue of the Virgin was brought into the sanctuary, we sang to it, priests and the May court threw themselves down in front of it and said prayers of consecration, and we crowed the statue as Queen.

I recall once as a child, literally having my hair stand on end, and wanting to run out of the Church during a May crowning ceremony because I was sure that I was doing exactly what God commanded NOT to do…creating images and bowing to them.

The use of statues and images very much confused me as a child, and I did think we worshiped them, because the amount of attention and deference given to the statue was so great.

A large traveling statue of the Virgin was going round the country when I was in high school, It stopped at a local seminary and people went to see it, weeping, on their knees, throwing flowers etc. There was talk of miracles taking place for people who visited the STATUE, not merely prayed to the Virgin.

No matter how many times people swear that it’s NOT the statue etc etc…the way the statues were treated (dressing up the infant of Prague statues for various feast days and liturgical seasons) the weeping and kissing…did not in ANY way come across as the same as someone picking up a photo of grandma and kissing it.

Of course I may be the only person who as a child was much disturbed and confused about images and statues.

There are many incidences and stories of weeping statues, statues that bleed or drip holy oil, and people coming to see the STATUE etc etc. They don’t simply stay at home and say a prayer to Christ, or the Saint or the Virgin, they make a pilgrimage to see a carved block of wood or plaster, and hope to touch it and be healed.

When Catholics say that talk of them worshiping statues is just mean spirited Protestants intentionally spreading lies all I can think is “seriously…what would YOU think if you saw anyone of any other faith behave that way towards a carved block of wood?” Well, I’ve heard what they say…that the person is foolishly worshiping an idol, when they should be giving all their adoration to God.

When I hear endless rabid defense of the use of statues it sounds even more like people are bizarrely attached to them to a disturbing degree.

If the statues were merely there to depict a saint or story, that would be one thing, but the deference given to them is what causes the confusion.
 
  1. The argument about “graven images” and the defense that these are OK since “most people were illiterate” and that "Books were expensive and so the stain glass (or whatever) was a way to tell the stories… The problem I find with this argument is that most people were likely illiterate in the OT times as well. Literacy does not seem to play into the prohibition or the relaxing of the prohibition on images.
I don’t have a problem with that argument. In OT times they didn’t have stained glass (I’m no expert but I assume this developed later or at least was more accessible). Changes in technology could allow for changes in presentation.

An interesting thing to me is the Muslim understanding of images. Again, I’m no expert, but my understanding is that at least some Muslims take the meaning of no images so far as to believe you can not make images of anything living. Thus in their art they have no depictions of people, animals or plants. This is why Muslim design is characterized by geometric shapes. They also may purposefully make an imperfection in their art because only God is perfect.

It may be difficult to make a compelling, compact argument with this information. But I find knowing this to be interesting because the Muslim notion is an extreme holding to the notion of no graven images. And it also may reveal the difference with the Christian Faith’s key claim which is the incarnation.
  1. The (seemingly) popular 33,000 protestant churches…The study on which it is based is flawed and while certainly it is good to try to make the point that there are just too many conflicting belief systems out there, this number only serves to divert the conversation from useful paths.
I really dislike this argument. It is my understanding that the same method for determining 33,000 Protestant churches would create several Catholic churches because they considered national boundaries. Having said that the number of Protestant churches is shockingly large, especially if non-denominational churches are considered. I think the force of the argument can be made without the number. As one poster suggested a page from the Yellow Pages, if you don’t throw the book away immediately as I do, would accomplish the same. Moreover this would be more relevant if it is from the same community as the person you are arguing with.
 
Summary of the 7 deadly sins from the link above
  1. Apologetical Gluttony - A failure to respect the limits of what apologetics can accomplish.
  2. Reducing the Faith to Apologetics - Looking at all or most spiritual matters “apologetically”.
  3. Confusing the Faith with Our Arguments for It - Reducing the Faith to our own particular arguments for it.
  4. Contentiousness – Going out of your way to look for areas of disagreement.
  5. Friendly Fire -Battling Protestants and other absolutists instead of non-Christians and relativists.
  6. Trying to “Win” – Aiming to ‘win’ an argument, even at the expense of bringing people to truth.
  7. Pride - Thinking more highly of one’s apologetical abilities than one should.
Source: brandonvogt.com/how-not-to-share-your-faith-review/
 
Using the argument that the pagans did/do it (for whatever reason) is not going to help, indeed it will totally and utterly strengthen the argument against the use of images and statues.

There were and are faiths that do not use images and statues and yet pass on the faith to their children.

A drawing of Christ and other characters in a children’s Bible or story book is rather different from a statue (often life sized) in a house of worship with candles and flowers in front of it, etc.

Which brings us round to the last point…that these things do INDEED have an effect on children and others. A very powerful effect, and as a child I DID think that we worshiped them.

There was a larger than life sized statue of the crucifixion. Which as far as I knew we worshiped, as it represented Christ, and at Good Friday we kissed it’s feet, and when we entered the church we genuflected ( and it seemed we genuflected when we faced the altar and the statue, we didn’t genuflect towards the tabernacle which was offset.

And in that very same church were life sized or greater statues of Mary, Joseph, and the patron saint, which we also were to bow to (though not genuflect) when we passed them, and people knelt and said prayers before them, and left flowers and lit candles.

In May, a larger than life sized statue of the Virgin was brought into the sanctuary, we sang to it, priests and the May court threw themselves down in front of it and said prayers of consecration, and we crowed the statue as Queen.

I recall once as a child, literally having my hair stand on end, and wanting to run out of the Church during a May crowning ceremony because I was sure that I was doing exactly what God commanded NOT to do…creating images and bowing to them.

The use of statues and images very much confused me as a child, and I did think we worshiped them, because the amount of attention and deference given to the statue was so great.

A large traveling statue of the Virgin was going round the country when I was in high school, It stopped at a local seminary and people went to see it, weeping, on their knees, throwing flowers etc. There was talk of miracles taking place for people who visited the STATUE, not merely prayed to the Virgin.

No matter how many times people swear that it’s NOT the statue etc etc…the way the statues were treated (dressing up the infant of Prague statues for various feast days and liturgical seasons) the weeping and kissing…did not in ANY way come across as the same as someone picking up a photo of grandma and kissing it.

Of course I may be the only person who as a child was much disturbed and confused about images and statues.

There are many incidences and stories of weeping statues, statues that bleed or drip holy oil, and people coming to see the STATUE etc etc. They don’t simply stay at home and say a prayer to Christ, or the Saint or the Virgin, they make a pilgrimage to see a carved block of wood or plaster, and hope to touch it and be healed.

When Catholics say that talk of them worshiping statues is just mean spirited Protestants intentionally spreading lies all I can think is “seriously…what would YOU think if you saw anyone of any other faith behave that way towards a carved block of wood?” Well, I’ve heard what they say…that the person is foolishly worshiping an idol, when they should be giving all their adoration to God.

When I hear endless rabid defense of the use of statues it sounds even more like people are bizarrely attached to them to a disturbing degree.

If the statues were merely there to depict a saint or story, that would be one thing, but the deference given to them is what causes the confusion.
This is a very pertinent observation, and any apologetic regarding the use of images should keep this in mind. It isn’t so much how, exactly, Catholics treat such images… as how we are perceived to do so.

Regardless of how one chooses to reverence an image of Our Lord, Our Lady, or the saints, any properly catechized Catholic understands that these are only images, and reverence of such is done as an external honor, which is an entirely different understanding than that of the ancient pagans who worshiped such images.

In their understanding, the image was the god, or at the very least the spirit of the god dwelt within it. Thus, worshiping the image was an act of worship toward the god. Whereas, in Catholocism, the image is only ever a representation, a bodily aid to worshiping in spirit. No Catholic (properly catechized) believes God or the saints dwell within the image. And that’s a significant difference.
 
I don’t have a problem with that argument. In OT times they didn’t have stained glass (I’m no expert but I assume this developed later or at least was more accessible). Changes in technology could allow for changes in presentation.

An interesting thing to me is the Muslim understanding of images. Again, I’m no expert, but my understanding is that at least some Muslims take the meaning of no images so far as to believe you can not make images of anything living. Thus in their art they have no depictions of people, animals or plants. This is why Muslim design is characterized by geometric shapes. They also may purposefully make an imperfection in their art because only God is perfect.

It may be difficult to make a compelling, compact argument with this information. But I find knowing this to be interesting because the Muslim notion is an extreme holding to the notion of no graven images. And it also may reveal the difference with the Christian Faith’s key claim which is the incarnation.
Actually, they do make floral depictions. The prohibition is against animated creatures (man and animals). A muslim friend of mine explained to me that when an image of a creature is made, the djinni (demons) can become present within it, and if you display it in your home (or anywhere really), the demon then has access, or an entry point, into your home.

Whether this is the mainstream understanding or not, I’m not sure, but it’s at least a belief in some sections of Islam.
 
This is a very pertinent observation, and any apologetic regarding the use of images should keep this in mind. It isn’t so much how, exactly, Catholics treat such images… as how we are perceived to do so.

Regardless of how one chooses to reverence an image of Our Lord, Our Lady, or the saints, any properly catechized Catholic understands that these are only images, and reverence of such is done as an external honor, which is an entirely different understanding than that of the ancient pagans who worshiped such images.

In their understanding, the image was the god, or at the very least the spirit of the god dwelt within it. Thus, worshiping the image was an act of worship toward the god. Whereas, in Catholocism, the image is only ever a representation, a bodily aid to worshiping in spirit. No Catholic (properly catechized) believes God or the saints dwell within the image. And that’s a significant difference.
A significant difference indeed!

Given human nature, and our inclination to get attached to “things” and often superstitiously, sentimental value etc, I always felt like the command of God in the Old Testament was in recognition of this. That God, knowing human nature, wanted to simplify things by eliminating images. Because it is not only people observing things from the outside who get confused, often people in the worship community themselves get confused.

If a statue only represents the Virgin, then it would seem, other than craftsmanship, one statue of the Virgin would be equal to any other, yet clearly that is not the case and certain powers/graces are believed to be attached to particular statues.

I understand and respect the Church’s right to authority over their flock and to set doctrine, and I understand their teaching on this issue. But respectfully, even when I was Catholic, believe this to be an area of great concern.

As you say, catechesis is at the heart of this and many other issues
 
Using the argument that the pagans did/do it (for whatever reason) is not going to help, indeed it will totally and utterly strengthen the argument against the use of images and statues.
The OP and I were having a side discussion about the use of images. I have never and would not compare pagan practices with Christian ones with someone who has a buga-boo about statues since it would be counter productive. 🙂
There were and are faiths that do not use images and statues and yet pass on the faith to their children.
Actually, the whole of creation shows us the image of God, so it really can’t be escaped. 😉
A drawing of Christ and other characters in a children’s Bible or story book is rather different from a statue (often life sized) in a house of worship with candles and flowers in front of it, etc.
For those who use them, no doubt, but essentially, they are the same thing–an image of Jesus or a saint. Pictures are images too, even if those who use them don’t see them as such.
Which brings us round to the last point…that these things do INDEED have an effect on children and others. A very powerful effect, and as a child I DID think that we worshiped them.
There was a larger than life sized statue of the crucifixion. Which as far as I knew we worshiped, as it represented Christ, and at Good Friday we kissed it’s feet, and when we entered the church we genuflected ( and it seemed we genuflected when we faced the altar and the statue, we didn’t genuflect towards the tabernacle which was offset.
And in that very same church were life sized or greater statues of Mary, Joseph, and the patron saint, which we also were to bow to (though not genuflect) when we passed them, and people knelt and said prayers before them, and left flowers and lit candles.
In May, a larger than life sized statue of the Virgin was brought into the sanctuary, we sang to it, priests and the May court threw themselves down in front of it and said prayers of consecration, and we crowed the statue as Queen.
I recall once as a child, literally having my hair stand on end, and wanting to run out of the Church during a May crowning ceremony because I was sure that I was doing exactly what God commanded NOT to do…creating images and bowing to them.
The use of statues and images very much confused me as a child, and I did think we worshiped them, because the amount of attention and deference given to the statue was so great.
A large traveling statue of the Virgin was going round the country when I was in high school, It stopped at a local seminary and people went to see it, weeping, on their knees, throwing flowers etc. There was talk of miracles taking place for people who visited the STATUE, not merely prayed to the Virgin.
No matter how many times people swear that it’s NOT the statue etc etc…the way the statues were treated (dressing up the infant of Prague statues for various feast days and liturgical seasons) the weeping and kissing…did not in ANY way come across as the same as someone picking up a photo of grandma and kissing it.
Of course I may be the only person who as a child was much disturbed and confused about images and statues.
There are many incidences and stories of weeping statues, statues that bleed or drip holy oil, and people coming to see the STATUE etc etc. They don’t simply stay at home and say a prayer to Christ, or the Saint or the Virgin, they make a pilgrimage to see a carved block of wood or plaster, and hope to touch it and be healed.
When Catholics say that talk of them worshiping statues is just mean spirited Protestants intentionally spreading lies all I can think is “seriously…what would YOU think if you saw anyone of any other faith behave that way towards a carved block of wood?” Well, I’ve heard what they say…that the person is foolishly worshiping an idol, when they should be giving all their adoration to God.
When I hear endless rabid defense of the use of statues it sounds even more like people are bizarrely attached to them to a disturbing degree.
If the statues were merely there to depict a saint or story, that would be one thing, but the deference given to them is what causes the confusion.
I’m sorry you had such a bad experience, but really it was based on your misunderstanding not on facts. 🙂 Children need to be taught what images are and why we venerate them so they don’t come away with misconceptions. Devotions are acts of love for God. They are not idol worship. Did anyone offer a goat, sheep or worse, a human being to the statues? No, they didn’t. Merely bowing or kneeling is not worship–sacrifice is worship. As the pagans “bowed down” they were also offering sacrifices. We are told that when Israel worshiped the golden calf they offered sacrifices to it–that was where they sinned the most–by thinking of an object as a god and offering sacrifice to it. The only sacrifice we Catholics make is the Eucharist.

Since the Incarnation of Christ, we have the visible image of God in Christ. We give Christ worship/adoration. We give Mary and the saints veneration–acknowledging how God worked/works in and through them to bring his grace into the world. Children need to be taught such things. The best time to do that is when taking a child before a statue to light a candle. It’s up to parents to instruct their little ones as to the differences between adoring God and giving veneration to the saints.
 
A significant difference indeed!

Given human nature, and our inclination to get attached to “things” and often superstitiously, sentimental value etc, I always felt like the command of God in the Old Testament was in recognition of this. That God, knowing human nature, wanted to simplify things by eliminating images. Because it is not only people observing things from the outside who get confused, often people in the worship community themselves get confused.
Confusion due to a lack of teaching is not sufficient reason to void a legitimate practice.
If a statue only represents the Virgin, then it would seem, other than craftsmanship, one statue of the Virgin would be equal to any other, yet clearly that is not the case and certain powers/graces are believed to be attached to particular statues.
Your statement is misleading here–unintentionally so, I’m sure. 🙂 The grace is not attached to the statue, it is attached to the devotion that sprang from the occasion for the statue being made, such as the Miraculous Medal statues/medals. They are reminders that we can obtain certain graces by prayerfully following the devotion, such as asking Mary to give us the graces God entrusted to her to pass on to us–yes, she has that ability just as we do if we are in full cooperation with God’s will, as she is.
I understand and respect the Church’s right to authority over their flock and to set doctrine, and I understand their teaching on this issue. But respectfully, even when I was Catholic, believe this to be an area of great concern.
Because you seem to have had and still have major misconceptions based on faulty teaching or personal experience instead of being properly and fully catechized.
As you say, catechesis is at the heart of this and many other issues
Indeed, it is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the best place to research any and all such questions. 🙂
 
A significant difference indeed!

Given human nature, and our inclination to get attached to “things” and often superstitiously, sentimental value etc, I always felt like the command of God in the Old Testament was in recognition of this. That God, knowing human nature, wanted to simplify things by eliminating images. Because it is not only people observing things from the outside who get confused, often people in the worship community themselves get confused.

If a statue only represents the Virgin, then it would seem, other than craftsmanship, one statue of the Virgin would be equal to any other, yet clearly that is not the case and certain powers/graces are believed to be attached to particular statues.

I understand and respect the Church’s right to authority over their flock and to set doctrine, and I understand their teaching on this issue. But respectfully, even when I was Catholic, believe this to be an area of great concern.

As you say, catechesis is at the heart of this and many other issues
Yes, this is true. Yet, I would caution. There is a secondary aspect to this question, and that is the question of Sacramentals. We know from the OT that God’s power was often wrought through holy objects (see, the Rod of Aaron, the Ark of the Covenant, Moses’ Staff, etc). Indeed, even in the Gospel we see this, as for example when Jesus’ power “goes out from Him” through His clothing and people are healed of their afflictions.

The Catholic Church carries this tradition forward through the use of Sacramentals, objects blessed as holy signs for the Lord. Sometimes, God chooses to exercise His power through such objects in miraculous ways. So we would not discount such things as demonic, or fantasy. But we ought to always keep in mind that it is not the object itself that carries power, but it is God alone who has the power, and the object is only an instrument of that power.
 
We really don’t get very far with the one about how the Catholic Church had the authority to write/compile the bible, so therefore they STILL have the authority to interpret scripture, even for protestants.

Problem is that the protestants will all tell you that they are unified in their belief that the CURRENT Catholic Church no longer has that authority. They lost it somewhere along the way.
Here is my thought about the church no longer having authority: Jesus stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So something must have happened during this lost of authority. In other words, the gates of hell prevailed against the catholic church. Therefore, Jesus lied?
 
Here is my thought about the church no longer having authority: Jesus stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So something must have happened during this lost of authority. In other words, the gates of hell prevailed against the catholic church. Therefore, Jesus lied?
Be careful here. The protestants can claim that by reclaiming the church, that they now have it, and indeed, the gates of Hell did not prevail.

I am thinking of starting a thread on this one. I hope folks stay on track. I really would like an answer - what can we tell protestants when they claim that the Catholic church simply lost it and no longer has authority or is the not the original church that Jesus started. For some protestants that I know (and even some ex-Catholics) this is their whole issue actually. I also know many Catholics who are stumped on this one and I have witnessed many arguments lost on this point.
 
Be careful here. The protestants can claim that by reclaiming the church, that they now have it, and indeed, the gates of Hell did not prevail.
Rather convenient bit of sophistry to give credence to what they cannot prove from Scripture or history.
I am thinking of starting a thread on this one. I hope folks stay on track. I really would like an answer - what can we tell protestants when they claim that the Catholic church simply lost it and no longer has authority or is the not the original church that Jesus started. For some protestants that I know (and even some ex-Catholics) this is their whole issue actually. I also know many Catholics who are stumped on this one and I have witnessed many arguments lost on this point.
There have been many threads on this topic. I’ve not sure how recent, though. 🙂
 
Yes, this is true. Yet, I would caution. There is a secondary aspect to this question, and that is the question of Sacramentals. We know from the OT that God’s power was often wrought through holy objects (see, the Rod of Aaron, the Ark of the Covenant, Moses’ Staff, etc). Indeed, even in the Gospel we see this, as for example when Jesus’ power “goes out from Him” through His clothing and people are healed of their afflictions.

The Catholic Church carries this tradition forward through the use of Sacramentals, objects blessed as holy signs for the Lord. Sometimes, God chooses to exercise His power through such objects in miraculous ways. So we would not discount such things as demonic, or fantasy. But we ought to always keep in mind that it is not the object itself that carries power, but it is God alone who has the power, and the object is only an instrument of that power.
I have a question regarding sacramentals. I understand that statues/icons are images that remind us of the particular person/saint and call people to devotion, thanksgiving etc.

Do sacramentals likewise serve that function? As in serving as a reminder of God’s glory etc, and then the grace comes from God, or is the sacramental seen as being a vehicle of grace (if that term makes any sense) I understand the sacramental has no power of its own, but I also know that they must be disposed of in particular ways if they become broken etc, and are to be treated with an appropriate measure of respect.

Do they “hold” some of the power/grace of God in themselves, or does it simply move through them when the faithful make use of them?

I recall when I was in high school one of the sisters invited us to touch our rosaries to one that the Virgin at Medrugorge had handled. ( I think that is not an approved vision, but the circumstances of touching a rosary to one blessed by a pope etc might be considered similar). It was unclear to me what effect/grace was being conferred from one to the other.
 
Be careful here. The protestants can claim that by reclaiming the church, that they now have it, and indeed, the gates of Hell did not prevail.
That still doesn’t change the fact that Hell prevailed against the Church for over 1,000 years if you are to believe the Protestant claim that they “reclaimed” the Church. Studying history and reading the words of the early Church Fathers - from Clement of Rome to Augustine - it’s apparent that these early Christians were more Catholic in their beliefs then they were Protestant. When I read their words I do not envision a Southern Baptist writing them.
 
I think the following should be helpful:

**33,000 Protestant Denominations? **
By Dave Armstrong
Saturday, September 04, 2004
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/09/33000-protestant-denominations.html

Dave Armstrong (Catholic) in black.
Eric Svendson (Protestant) in red.

I have only recently been able to locate the source of this figure. I say the source because in fact there is only one source that mentions this figure independently. All other secondary sources (to which Roman Catholics sometimes make appeal) ultimately cite the same original source. That source is David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982). This work is both comprehensive and painstakingly detailed; and its contents are quite enlightening.

Good. And as we see, this is the work that Al and I cited. Now here is where Eric starts to make a good point about denominational criteria:

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations. According to Barrett’s calculations, there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism—not 25,000 . . .

. . . Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

I accept this (and urge people to read his entire article, linked here, to fully understand the considerable force of his objection), and I reject Barrett’s calculations (as he defines and categorizes them), just as Eric does. In any event, the criteria of the definition of “denomination” is a different question from whether or not Catholics have pulled it out of thin air in order to embarrass Protestants. I am convinced by Eric’s explication of the former, from Barrett himself, but I reject the latter characterization.

Be that as it may, I think we can safely refer to “hundreds” of Protestant denominations, using a cogent doctrinal definition, not merely jurisdictional or superficial (though institutional unity is ot an unbiblical characteristic, either, if we want to get technical about it). Biblically-speaking, any more than one “denomination” or “Church” is a scandal. The Catholic continues to assert that there is one Church and that the Catholic Church is the fullest institutional expression of that one Church, with other Christians implicitly connected with it to more or less degrees. This (agree or disagree) at least lines up with the biblical witness as to the nature and definition of the Christian Church, rather than being blatantly contrary to the Bible, as the very notion of denominationalism (wholly apart from later disputes about numbers) is.

So, yes, I agree, Svendsen’s clarifications of Barrett’s meaning and his rebuke are worthwhile, and to be heeded accordingly; it does not follow, however, that the scandal of Protestant denominationalism is therefore alleviated. It is scandalous because it entails a false, unbiblical definition of what the Church is, no matter how many of these sects one arrives at, or by what calculation and criteria.

I, as a Catholic apologist, can easily admit that Svendsen is right about wrongheaded definitions concerning denominations, but that doesn’t have any ill effect whatever on the overall Catholic apologetic. On the other hand, Protestant apologists like Svendsen and White (even ecumenical Protestant apologists and other thinkers) have a huge problem trying to biblically justify denominationalism and sectarianism and in determining the internal causes of same (which we Catholics would identify as: sola Scriptura, private judgment, so-called “supremacy of conscience,” the sectarian and exclusivistic mindsets, anti-institutionalism, anti-sacerdotalism, rejection of a binding apostolic tradition and Church, and of apostolic succession, episcopacy, even American cultural individualism running rampant within American Protestantism, etc.) that they have by no means ever resolved or even squarely faced.​

So, 8,200 Protestant denominations according to Eric Svendson’s analysis of Barrett.
 
Good read and points.

I would like to note that not every church within the “denomination” preaches the same doctrine either. First Baptist downtown could have a pastor who preaches against infant baptism while the pastor of Grace Baptist several miles away could be preaching that infant baptism is a-okay.
 
I have a question regarding sacramentals. I understand that statues/icons are images that remind us of the particular person/saint and call people to devotion, thanksgiving etc.

Do sacramentals likewise serve that function? As in serving as a reminder of God’s glory etc, and then the grace comes from God, or is the sacramental seen as being a vehicle of grace (if that term makes any sense) I understand the sacramental has no power of its own, but I also know that they must be disposed of in particular ways if they become broken etc, and are to be treated with an appropriate measure of respect.

Do they “hold” some of the power/grace of God in themselves, or does it simply move through them when the faithful make use of them?

I recall when I was in high school one of the sisters invited us to touch our rosaries to one that the Virgin at Medrugorge had handled. ( I think that is not an approved vision, but the circumstances of touching a rosary to one blessed by a pope etc might be considered similar). It was unclear to me what effect/grace was being conferred from one to the other.
Sacramentals are merely “aids to faith” and nothing more. They do not, in and of themselves have any special powers or graces. Rather, following the devotions they represent do because such devotions always entail prayer, repentance, and penance (for the temporal damage our sins have done and to share in Christ’s sufferings as St. Paul talked about it). They are treated with respect because they are religious objects. They don’t belong in the trash when no longer used/usable. 🙂
 
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