Common Misconceptions About Islam

[Ortho]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Yes, all that money I spent at U wasn’t only for beer.

It’s true that the standards should be reasonably applied to all. However, that is another topic - it would be a side issue - i.e. a red herring if we were to discuss Christianity’s violent past when the topic is whether or not Islam was spread by the sword.

Hasta Luego,
Rodrigo

Another named fallacy!!!

One can reasonably discuss the spread of a religion and the methods employed in the context of the way other religions were spread. I’d say it’s important to note if the spread of one particular religion is an anomaly or the norm.

It becomes more important if people are criticizing the manner in which one religion was spread. That implies a standard, and investigation of that standard in the context of history can provide valuable insights.

 

[Ortho]

Neverland:

Dear Ortho,

You said:
I’m glad you think we should avail oursevles of a whole range of scholarship.

So, what is your comment of the case in Padjajaran, where Kian Santang chased his father to Sancang Forest to force him to be a moslem? His Father never forced him to be a Hindu, although Kian Santang was his own son. Poor king and father. What do you think? Is it enough to show that Islam was spread by sword as well in Indonesia?

Neverland

I think your story makes the point that one person was forced to be a Muslim. It does not demonstrate that Indonesia was forced. (Do you have stories about 51% of the Indonesians from that period?)

 

[Neverland]

Dear Ortho,

At least more than 50% of Padjajaran was Hindu before Kian Santang did that cruel thing to his own Father Prabu Siliwangi. And I can prove to you that at one point of time, Hindu (and Buddhism) were the majority in Indonesia. How much have you leant your own history?

Neverland

 

[Tinkerbell]

Quote: Islam oppresses women.

One of the first things shown to women in the west is that Islam oppresses them, by forcing them to wear the veil. What is not perceived is that Islam in covering women protects them from the evils of the society, since in Islam a woman is treated with utmost respect.

If you treat women with the utmost respect why do you make them cover up. Sounds like you men can’t control yourselves or your society has a LOT of evil people.

 

[Neverland]

Dear Tinkerbell,

I can understand what you think. In Christianity, it’s self control that is stressed upon. Like what Jesus said about seeing a woman with wanting…He didn’t blame the woman and forced every of His followers to force them to cover themselves. He simply told us - that it was sin to stare at women and want them (sexually). That’s one of the big differences between Christianity and Islam.

Neverland

 

[discipleofJesus]

Pure81:

i am not even trying to find a problem with the bible or christianity they are both part of what i beilive in so if i don’t beilive in the bible i am not a muslim anymore, wht i am discussing here is the same as the Old Testament became old , even though it is still used by the jews, which is part of your religion, islam is a devolpment of the new testament, do you see what i am saying here?

Do Muslims believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) is the Word of God?

Do Muslims believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) hasn’t been corrupted?

Christians believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) is the Word of God.

Christians believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) hasn’t been corrupted.

 

[Ortho]

Neverland:

Dear Ortho,

At least more than 50% of Padjajaran was Hindu before Kian Santang did that cruel thing to his own Father Prabu Siliwangi. And I can prove to you that at one point of time, Hindu (and Buddhism) were the majority in Indonesia. How much have you leant your own history?

Neverland

I agree Hinduism and Buddhism predominated prior to Islam.

But your story of one man does not demonstrate Indonesia was a forced conversion to Islam. (Are we still using the 51% rule?)

 

[Ortho]

Tinkerbell:

Quote: Islam oppresses women.

One of the first things shown to women in the west is that Islam oppresses them, by forcing them to wear the veil. What is not perceived is that Islam in covering women protects them from the evils of the society, since in Islam a woman is treated with utmost respect.

If you treat women with the utmost respect why do you make them cover up. Sounds like you men can’t control yourselves or your society has a LOT of evil people.

If Islam forces women to wear the veil, then we wouldn’t see so many Muslim populations where they don’t have to wear it. It’s easy to confuse culture with religion.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Ortho:

If Islam forces women to wear the veil, then we wouldn’t see so many Muslim populations where they don’t have to wear it. It’s easy to confuse culture with religion.

Are you saying that, according to Islam, it isn’t compulsory for a Muslim woman to wear the veil?

 

[Ortho]

discipleofJesus:

Are you saying that, according to Islam, it isn’t compulsory for a Muslim woman to wear the veil?

Yes. It is compulsory to dress modestly.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Ortho:

Yes. It is compulsory to dress modestly.

You don’t have to wear the veil to dress modestly. Why don’t you just say it is compulsory for Muslim women to wear the veil instead of saying it is compulsory to dress modestly?

The Bible states that women should dress modestly

“I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes” (1 Timothy 2:9)

By the way, you contradicted yourself. Since you just agreed that, in Islam, it is compulsory for Muslim women to wear the veil but earlier you said

Ortho:

If Islam forces women to wear the veil, then we wouldn’t see so many Muslim populations where they don’t have to wear it. It’s easy to confuse culture with religion.

 

[Pure81]

discipleofJesus:

Do Muslims believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) is the Word of God?

Do Muslims believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) hasn’t been corrupted?

Christians believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) is the Word of God.

Christians believe that the Bible (both the Old Testament and the New Testament) hasn’t been corrupted.

yes it is the word of god and yes we do beilive it has been altered , mankind ha altered it to serve their own needs…even christians are diveded amongst them because some beilive that the bible has been altered, but still it is the word of god, and both chritians and jews are mentioned in the quran as followers of god

 

[r.gonzales]

Ortho:

It is compulsory to dress modestly.

the obligation upon muslim women is to dress modestly, which includes the wearing of the khimaar (the headscarf) and jilbaab (loose flowing opaque outter garment).

regarding the veil, there is a difference of opinion regarding its obligation. the weightiest opinion regarding it is that it is not an obligation, but highly recommended. the majority of saudi scholars, particularly those involved in the legislation of national laws and policy, hold the opinion that it is obligatory.

 

[Ortho]

r.gonzales:

the obligation upon muslim women is to dress modestly, which includes the wearing of the khimaar (the headscarf) and jilbaab (loose flowing opaque outter garment).

regarding the veil, there is a difference of opinion regarding its obligation. the weightiest opinion regarding it is that it is not an obligation, but highly recommended. the majority of saudi scholars, particularly those involved in the legislation of national laws and policy, hold the opinion that it is obligatory.

In the various Muslim countries where I have lived, they seem to differ in their interpretation of modesty. Mosesty appears to be a function of culture. The Saudi standard of modesty differs from the Turkish standard which differs from the Indonesian standard.

Each culture then defines modest dress and says it is in compliance with Islam. I don’t dispute this at all.

For example, the Saudi may say an abaya and veil are required to be modest. On the other hand, an Indonesian may say a below knee skirt and blouse are modest. The Saudi may say a woman cannot show any hair. An Indonesian is simply puzzled by that. A Saudi may say a woman must wear a veil. The Indonesian just dismisses that.

Both the Saudi and Indonesian are recommending what they see as modest dress.

One of the more interesting things is that Saudis only think the abaya is required in Saudi. As soon as the seatbelt sign goes off on a departing flight, 90% of the abayas come off, too. They are then dressed in what would be considered modest in Singapore, London, or Jakarta.

 

[MugenOne]

Do you know why? Because the Saudis have a lacking of understanding about God’s nature. God is all omnipotent. Unlike the True God, the Saudis think their Allah could not see across the causeway or wherever outside of the kingdom. You are in Saudi Arabia and working with them, you should have known this better than anymore else.

Ortho:

One of the more interesting things is that Saudis only think the abaya is required in Saudi. As soon as the seatbelt sign goes off on a departing flight, 90% of the abayas come off, too. They are then dressed in what would be considered modest in Singapore, London, or Jakarta.

 

[Ortho]

MugenOne:

Do you know why? Because the Saudis have a lacking of understanding about God’s nature. God is all omnipotent. Unlike the True God, the Saudis think their Allah could not see across the causeway or wherever outside of the kingdom. You are in Saudi Arabia and working with them, you should have known this better than anymore else.

The Saudis have many faults, but they are far smarter than that.

My point is that culture provides one’s notion of modesty, and when one then implements a religious instruction to be modest, the modesty applied is the cultural norm for modesty.

I have asked many Saudis about this. They just laugh and say they follow the norms for modesty in the places they visit. One said he had been refused admittance to the Vatican wearing running shorts and a tank top. He said he went back to the hotel and changed. He said this must be what Westerners experience when they enter Saudi.

 

[r.gonzales]

Ortho:

In the various Muslim countries where I have lived, they seem to differ in their interpretation of modesty. Mosesty appears to be a function of culture. The Saudi standard of modesty differs from the Turkish standard which differs from the Indonesian standard.

Each culture then defines modest dress and says it is in compliance with Islam. I don’t dispute this at all.

For example, the Saudi may say an abaya and veil are required to be modest. On the other hand, an Indonesian may say a below knee skirt and blouse are modest. The Saudi may say a woman cannot show any hair. An Indonesian is simply puzzled by that. A Saudi may say a woman must wear a veil. The Indonesian just dismisses that.

Both the Saudi and Indonesian are recommending what they see as modest dress.

while i agree with you that how ‘modesty’ is interpreted differs from culture to culture, there is an ‘islamic’ standard of modesty that all muslim women are obligated to adhere to that is stipulated by the legislative texts of the religion. the Quranic injunctions are for women to “draw their khimaars (headscarves) over their bossoms” and to “draw their jilbaabs (outter garments) close over them”. there are other injunctions from prophet muhammad that state that the only parts of a mature woman that are to be seen by non-mahram men are her face and her two hands. aside from these (and other religious injunctions), cultural norms and habits are permitted provided they don’t violate any of the limitations set by the religion. now, that said, whether the muslims of various cultures or nations themselves acknowledge this, adhere to it or are even aware of it, that’s another issue.

Ortho:

One of the more interesting things is that Saudis only think the abaya is required in Saudi. As soon as the seatbelt sign goes off on a departing flight, 90% of the abayas come off, too. They are then dressed in what would be considered modest in Singapore, London, or Jakarta.

yeah, although i haven’t witnessed this myself, i know many that have. i’d say thinking these things are cultural mandates rather than religious obligations has a great deal to do with it.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Ortho:

The Saudis have many faults, but they are far smarter than that.

My point is that culture provides one’s notion of modesty, and when one then implements a religious instruction to be modest, the modesty applied is the cultural norm for modesty.

I have asked many Saudis about this. They just laugh and say they follow the norms for modesty in the places they visit. One said he had been refused admittance to the Vatican wearing running shorts and a tank top. He said he went back to the hotel and changed. He said this must be what Westerners experience when they enter Saudi.

Peace be with you!

When anyone enters Saudi Arabia they are searched at the airport. If they have a Bible it is taken out and shredded in front of them (and Muslims are supposed to respect the Bible). If they have any religious symbols, necklaces, ect. they are confiscated. If they have more than one Bible they can be arrested, and if they have too many (I forget the number) they can be put to death because it is suspected that they will be distributing them to Muslims. I read about someone who was in a Saudi airport and saw a Catholic nun who some idiot travel agent had given a layover in Saudi Arabia. This person said that the nun’s rosary and crucifix were ripped off of her and thrown in the trash. Then they took her Bible and put it through a paper shredder, all the time telling obsenities at her.
Another account was from a woman who had a layover there as well. She had a video of her (Christian) wedding with her and said it was confiscated. After the Saudis edited out all the Christian symbols in the video they gave it back to her.

Please note that I am not saying all Muslims do this, nor am I implying this. All I am saying is that this is what Saudi Arabia is like.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[r.gonzales]

Rand Al'Thor:

When anyone enters Saudi Arabia they are searched at the airport. If they have a Bible it is taken out and shredded in front of them (and Muslims are supposed to respect the Bible). If they have any religious symbols, necklaces, ect. they are confiscated. If they have more than one Bible they can be arrested, and if they have too many (I forget the number) they can be put to death because it is suspected that they will be distributing them to Muslims.

are these all things that you’ve actually experienced first hand, or are they things that you’ve just read about?

 

[Ortho]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

When anyone enters Saudi Arabia they are searched at the airport. If they have a Bible it is taken out and shredded in front of them (and Muslims are supposed to respect the Bible). If they have any religious symbols, necklaces, ect. they are confiscated. If they have more than one Bible they can be arrested, and if they have too many (I forget the number) they can be put to death because it is suspected that they will be distributing them to Muslims. I read about someone who was in a Saudi airport and saw a Catholic nun who some idiot travel agent had given a layover in Saudi Arabia. This person said that the nun’s rosary and crucifix were ripped off of her and thrown in the trash. Then they took her Bible and put it through a paper shredder, all the time telling obsenities at her.
Another account was from a woman who had a layover there as well. She had a video of her (Christian) wedding with her and said it was confiscated. After the Saudis edited out all the Christian symbols in the video they gave it back to her.

Please note that I am not saying all Muslims do this, nor am I implying this. All I am saying is that this is what Saudi Arabia is like.

In Christ,
Rand

I brought bibles through Saudi customs several times. None was shredded.

Personal religious symbols found in luggage are not taken. I have come through Saudi customs several times with people who had purchased religious items in other countries. Nothing was taken. I personally brought carved wooden figures of Hindu gods.

I had one thing taken in customs. It was a wooden carving of a hand. I also shipped a two foot high wooden elephant from Sri Lanka. It was solid wood. The Saudis drilled a hole in the bottom to look for drugs. When they found no drugs, they wished me well and I took my elephant to my car.

Multiple bibles will be confiscated. The person then goes on his way. If the number of religious items in luggage appears to be more than for personal use, they will be confiscated. For example, a dozen crosses will be taken.

Passengers stay on the plane when it lands if they are proceeding to another destination.

I travelled in and out of Saudi all the time. I think I made several hundred round trips out of Dhahran, Riyadh, and Jedda. I never witnessed the behavior you describe, not dd I hear of it from other people with first hand experience.

Saudi is a dictatorship and police state, and it can be dangerous. However, I suspect the religiously motivated actions you describe are gross exagerations.