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qui_est_ce
Guest
Please back your answers with verifiable historical references. Thank you.
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Jay53
Guest
No, judgment is solely up to God. All of the people you mentioned, including Muhammad, may have repented or spent time in Purgatory to atone for their sins. It’s not up to me to judge.
I’m just curious, I had never heard this before - that Muhammad may have married women, but not consummated the marriages.
If this statement is false I will ignore it; if it is true it will then beg the question why did Muhammad have to consummate his marriage to Aiesha, the child - why couldn’t he have just married her as he did those other women who he (allegedly) married and (allegedly) did not consummate the marriages.
And believe me, I don’t hate anyone, including Muhammad. I don’t know where you even get the idea that my heart “is full of hatred already”. ??? I don’t think I have been hateful at all in any of these forums.
Please point out to me where I have been hateful and I will apologize. If you can’t, then I will expect an apology!! Thank you.
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Wildkit
Guest
How long will it be until there is no answer to the question(s),……but another change in topic by way of another question?
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neploho
Guest
If you can’t answer the question you listed then no, you do not have a basic understanding of Islam.
Not going to really try and decipher this.
I don’t know what your talking about but if I had to make a guess I’d say I either didn’t se your “challenge” or ignored it due to my, in my oppinion, very reasonable belief that an in depth discussion with you is really not worth my time.
“inane” “incoherent ramblings” “asinine” would all serve as better adjectives.now this was uncharitable…I know
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qui_est_ce
Guest
So sex with someone who is not your wife, such as a slave woman, is not fornication, so it is permissable. Sex with nine year old girls is not pedophilia, it is permissable. You are saying that a man can have sex with any woman, as long as he treats her as wife, whatever your definition of wife/marriage is. You are okay with this.
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Jimzz12
Guest
I ask these questions out of curiosity. I may have been inadvertently offensive, but if it were inadvertent then by definition it is not offensive as it lacks ill will and/or malice, and as such is only inadvertent. Any interpretation of my words as offensive reflects a lack of virtue in the reader. I do not judge the man; I hardly even judge myself – except that I well know I am unworthy of God’s graces; even of the air I breath.How many women and girls does Mohammed both fornicate and have sexual relations with in the Koran? And, how many men and boys does he fornicate with in the Koran?
I only say this because I find this to make him a disreputable role model. I hope it isn’t slanderous. I hope he came to desire and know Christ on his death bed.
I see now that Mohammed had never fornicated in the Koran. As I assume the truth has been spoken here. I am careful, hoping for prudence, in assuming this truth as I am well aware that Mohammed commanded his followers to use deceit always when dealing with the unbeliever. God’s Ten Commandments forbid lying in any form and as such I seek The Truth only – that is, straight forward answers. In dialogue, those are always most credible.
Perhaps, I should have chosen a better word than fornicate. That is not me to judge nor my reader to judge. Yet, fornicate, for me, in the tradition of great dessert fathers of the Scetis, I understand to mean any carnal relation or carnal thought between a man another man, woman, or child. In so many words we could say the demon fornication, that is, the temptation itself to engage in carnal relationships and not just the actual manifestation. The use of this particular definition seems *a *propo considering the chronology and geography. Clearly there is a wide opinion that Mohammed always resisted the Devil’s advancements. In specific respect to fornification where does this opinion come from? I am very curious. Was Mohammed sinless? I actually don’t know. As a Christian I know of only two sinless people. It is really not for me to say how sinful a man is, but sinlessness is perhaps a little different. Although, it is unwise to occupy my mind with the sinlessness or sinfulness of any man; nevermind Mohammed one who has been dead for centuries.
Perhaps the best answer to the question of Mohammed and fornication is… “We don’t know for sure.” “I don’t know” is always a good answer when dealing with the Scriptures of the New and Old Testaments. Yet, as the Koran might not be scriptural the answer of “I don’t know” might not apply.
I wanted to limit this to the Koran as there is never any consenses on the Hadiths, say such as Bukhari’s collection, or texts such as ‘Reliance of the Traveller’. Clearly it becomes a much more complex issue when regarding those narrations.
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elwill
Guest
yes , there is no religous objections for marriage in such early age in islam
what really amazing me is that there is no objections for such marriage in your religion as well , and jesus (pbuh) never limited the age of marriage
who are you to limit the age of marriage to other people , and who are you to judge on such pratice to be immoral while your God said nothing about it ?
such early marraige was a custom within early jews ans christians and no one ever arise any objections , but when it come with the prophet of islam (pbuh) you shout out : evil !!!
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qui_est_ce
Guest
You are simply wrong here. The Catholic Church would never marry a child to a middle aged man.
You really think Catholics should be okay with sex with babies because Jesus never forbade it?
You are wrong. There are limitations on marriage. Most states you have to be at least 16 without parental consent.
Jews and Christians, since NT, have never been okay with child marriages, multiple marriages, multple wives, etc. It may be that marriages were arranged. Give me an example of the custom of children marrying in NT Judaism or Christianity.
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tomarin
Guest
Elwill, what is the rationale for concubinage (sleeping with a slave woman)? It seems utterly indefensible from the standpoint of the law of reciprocity. Part of treating a captive humanely involves not subjecting them to coercive sex, don’t you agree?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
I think we are confusing sex with marriage. Elwill is defending Islamic marriage, but we are talking about sexual relations.
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tomarin
Guest
But concubinage isn’t marriage, even to people who think it is permissible. It’s a separate institution altogether.
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jastor
Guest
Gospels were passed down in stories until it was finally put on paper. Not to mention Constantine’s selection processes of books, it was doomed from the beginning.
AND show me the original copies? Where are they?
AT LEAST the Quran was kept in whole form through memorization. The bible was stories and apparently didnt even match in facts because the gospels dont even agree with each other on some facts and have very controversial authors. Do you “really” think the authors are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
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jastor
Guest
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jastor
Guest
Not today, but yes it has in the past.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now.
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jakasaki
Guest
Really, and you are an expert in the field of Christian Theology? Elighten me, please.
You sound exactly like an anti-Christian web site along with Deedat garbalogy. Can you PROVE THESE facts you are stating from reliable historical sites/sources.
Yes, like you can show us the original koran from mohamad.
That’s a lie - you should do some historical research before you make a statementment such as this one.
Really, where, show us so we may discuss them.
Since yuu are so sure of yourself, provide evidence once again from reliable historical sources.
If they aren’t the authors who do you think wrote them. What are the names of the authors?
And since you profile states a “islam convert”, what were you before that?
Thanks!
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jakasaki
Guest
When, where, people, places, time, history, who? ** And the biggest question is **where THEY PROPHETS of God!!! ** **
We already know kings and others married young brides. ** This is about a PROPHET OF GOD ONLY discussion. **
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jastor
Guest
All these things have been mentioned on this forum before today. Its nothing new.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Memorized you mean? Until written in 60 AD.
This has no historical basis and his blatently false.
In the Vatican. We have copies written by St. Jerome himself. We have the Qumrun pieces as well.
Memorizing lies does not make them truth. The Bible is not a history book, it is a book telling the salvation story and God’s love for us. It doesn’t matter what the names of the authors are, the writings are inspired. Tell me, which author is controversial according to Christianity?
The oldest copies available are as follows:
Of the Old Testament, the oldest copies date back between the 5th to 4th centuries B.C. and the 1st century A.D.
Of the New Testament, the oldest copy (it’s a fragment of the gospel of John) dates back to 125 A.D., with a margin error of 25 years either way.
And very few contradictions have been found. Most are in spelling, or occasionally the order of the words are changed. However, these “contradictions” do NOT change the overall meaning of the text.
newadvent.org/cathen/09627a.htm
(partial list of NT and where they are housed)
***There are about 160 vellum uncials of the New Testament; some 110 contain the Gospels or a part thereof. The chiefest of these uncials are the four great codices of the entire Greek Bible, aleph, A, B, C, for which, see above. The Vatican (B) is the oldest and probably the best New Testament manuscript.
•D. or Cod. Bezæ (q.v.) (fifth or sixth century; in University Library, Cambridge) contains Gospels and Acts in Gr. and Lat., excepting Acts 22:29 to the end; it is a unique specimen of a Greek manuscript whose text is Western, i.e. that the Old Latin and Old Syriac.
•D3 or Cod. Claromonianus (probably sixth century; in Nat. Libr., Paris) contains Pauline Epistles in Gr. and Lat., each text independent of the other. Before Hebrews is a list of the books of the New Testament and the number of lines (stichoi) in each; this list omits Thess., Heb., and Phil., includes four apocryphal books, and follows an unusual order: Matt., John, Mark, Luke, Rom., I and II Cor., Gal., Ephesians, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, Col., Philem., I and II Pet., James, I, II and III John, Jude, Barnabas, Apoc., Acts, Hermas, Acts of Paul, Apoc. of Peter.
•E, or Cod. Basileensis (eighth century; in Univ. Libr., Basle) contains the Gospels.
•E2, or Cod. Laudianus (sixth century; Oxford, in Bodl. Library) contains Acts in Gr. and Lat. The former is somewhat like D.
•E3, or Cod. Sangermanensis (ninth century; in Imper. Libr., St. Petersburg) contains Pauline Epistles in Gr. and Lat.; of same family as D3.
•F, or Cod. Boreeli (ninth century; at Utrecht), contains Gospels.
•F3, or Cod. Augiensis (ninth century; in Trinity College, Cambridge), contains Pauline Epp. in Gr. and Lat.; of the same family as D3, E3, and G3.
•G, or Cod. Wolfii A (ninth or tenth century; at Cambridge, and London), contains the Gospels.
•G3, or Cod. Boernerianus (ninth century; at Dresden), contains Paul Epp. in Gr. and Lat.; text of D3 type.
•H, or Cod. Wolfii B (ninth or tenth century; at Dresden), contains Paul Epp. in Gr. and Lat.; text of D3 type.***
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jakasaki
Guest
Dodging the Q&A is not the solution.
You didn’t answer a single question with proofs, historical facts and sources to back up your statements. If they’ve “been covered” before, well then, it shouldn’t be a problem for you to list the reliable sources.
And I will ask again, what were you before you became a “islam covert”. If you posted your coversion on CAF, then please link the thread and # of such.
Thanks!
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