Communicating with the excommunicated

[Monica4316]

The CCEO is, if you’ll pardon the term, “weasel worded.” It specifically allows for penalty that is imposed by the commission of the act itself without need for trial, but there is no offense within the CCEO that isn’t subject to trial.

That is kind of difficult to understand, what do you think the implications of this are?

thanks again!

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Monica,

That is kind of difficult to understand, what do you think the implications of this are?

thanks again!

I think part of the problem may be that there are certain categories that Latins call “excommunication” that Easterns and Orientals would not really call an “excommunication” to begin with. Such would be the case of the most usual form - i.e., the occult excommunication of which I spoke about earlier. We would not normally refer to it as “excommunication” at all. To Easterns and Orientals, “excommunication” refers to a serious, PUBLIC censure by the Church, casting someone out of the Church.

The Latins have categories such as “minor excommunication” and “occult excommunication.” Though the concepts inherent in them are present among Easterns and Orientals, we would not call them “excommunications” according to our understanding of the term.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

Here is an example. The eastern Church deals with reserved sins. The Latin Church deals with penalties and there is no concept of reserved sins there since the 1983 codification.

Latin
CIC Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Eastern
CCEO Canon 728

1. Absolution from the following sins is reserved to the Apostolic See:
   (1) direct violation of the sacramental seal;
   (2) absolution of an accomplice in a sin against chastity.
2. It is reserved to the eparchial bishop to absolve from the sin of procuring a completed abortion.

CCEO has only one* ferendae sententiae* penalty:

Canon 1445

1. One who has used bodily force against a bishop or has caused him some other grave injury, is to be punished with an appropriate penalty, not excluding deposition, if he is a cleric. If, however, the same offense was committed against a metropolitan, patriarch, or even the Roman Pontiff, the guilty party is to be punished with a major excommunication, which in the last instance is reserved to the Roman Pontiff himself.

 

[Aramis]

Here is an example. The eastern Church deals with reserved sins. The Latin Church deals with penalties and there is no concept of reserved sins there since the 1983 codification.

Latin
CIC Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Eastern
CCEO Canon 728

1. Absolution from the following sins is reserved to the Apostolic See:
   (1) direct violation of the sacramental seal;
   (2) absolution of an accomplice in a sin against chastity.
2. It is reserved to the eparchial bishop to absolve from the sin of procuring a completed abortion.

CCEO has only one* ferendae sententiae* penalty:

Canon 1445

1. One who has used bodily force against a bishop or has caused him some other grave injury, is to be punished with an appropriate penalty, not excluding deposition, if he is a cleric. If, however, the same offense was committed against a metropolitan, patriarch, or even the Roman Pontiff, the guilty party is to be punished with a major excommunication, which in the last instance is reserved to the Roman Pontiff himself.

In the Latin Church, one is excommunicated “by the law itself” (latae sententiae) for striking a bishop. Any cleric who is aware you have done so is required to deny you communion, without trial.

In the CCEO, you aren’t formally excommunicated until tried for it.

Neither precludes the minor excommunication for unabsolved major sins.

And no, Marduk, I don’t mean “Public sins” - Striking a bishop in private is still a latae sententiae offense under the CIC.

 

[Monica4316]

Thanks for the replies! Based on what i read, it seems to me like in the Eastern Catholic church: penalties are given through a trial (for example, major excommunications), not automatically, there are also reserved sins.
In the Roman Catholic church, there are penalties that are given automatically, others that are not given automatically. Minor excommunication is not really spoken about, - if someone commits a mortal sin though they are bound to confess it before receiving Communion, as always was.

Vico, it seems to me like there are reserved sins in the Roman Catholic Church as well: for example heresy, schism, abortion, etc… some are reserved to the Bishop, some are to the Pope. In many dioceses, the Bishop has given his priests the ability to remove the excommunications reserved to him - it depends.

 

[Monica4316]

What happens in the Eastern Catholic church, - if a person did a sin for which a penalty could be given, but no one finds out about it until they repent and confess? (so there was never any trial or even a warning). would they still be given the penalty, or no? what if they confess to a Roman Catholic priest?

Or - let’s say if a Russian Catholic person has had an abortion. I’ve never had an abortion. But I’m speaking hypothetically… this is reserved to the Bishop but their Bishop is the local Latin Ordinary. If the Latin Bishop has given his priests the faculty to absolve from abortion, can they just go to a local Roman Catholic priest? again this is hypothetical about abortion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My understanding is that latae sententiae doesn’t require a tribunal at all, it’s automatic… I also read that the CCEO doesn’t contain latae sententiae excommunications, so none are automatic. Does anyone know for sure?

You need a tribunal to prove and declare that you are a heretic or schismatic, not to excommunicate you.

 

[Vico]

Thanks for the replies! Based on what i read, it seems to me like in the Eastern Catholic church: penalties are given through a trial (for example, major excommunications), not automatically, there are also reserved sins.
In the Roman Catholic church, there are penalties that are given automatically, others that are not given automatically. Minor excommunication is not really spoken about, - if someone commits a mortal sin though they are bound to confess it before receiving Communion, as always was.

Vico, it seems to me like there are reserved sins in the Roman Catholic Church as well: for example heresy, schism, abortion, etc… some are reserved to the Bishop, some are to the Pope. In many dioceses, the Bishop has given his priests the ability to remove the excommunications reserved to him - it depends.

The Latin canon law removed all reserved sins. Instead there are automatic excommunications which are penalties, and the lifting of the penalties is reserved. The concept is different. Before the 1983 CIC, absolution of certain sins was reserved to various levels of authority, such as the local bishop or one to whom he specifically gave the faculty, but now, any confessor can absolve any sin.

 

[Vico]

What happens in the Eastern Catholic church, - if a person did a sin for which a penalty could be given, but no one finds out about it until they repent and confess? (so there was never any trial or even a warning). would they still be given the penalty, or no? what if they confess to a Roman Catholic priest?

Or - let’s say if a Russian Catholic person has had an abortion. I’ve never had an abortion. But I’m speaking hypothetically… this is reserved to the Bishop but their Bishop is the local Latin Ordinary. If the Latin Bishop has given his priests the faculty to absolve from abortion, can they just go to a local Roman Catholic priest? again this is hypothetical about abortion.

The faculty to absolve sins is a share in the executive power of governance of the authority granting the faculty or the office with the faculty. So Latin priests are to follow the CIC provisions (may absolve all sins) and eastern priest the CCEO provisions (reserved sins). So an eastern Catholic can receive absolution from a Latin priest but may not receive absolution from an eastern priest, where it is reserved. In a nutshell: absolution of sins reserved under the penitents law are valid when not reserved under the confessor law.

 

[mardukm]

I’d like to point out that the Latin concept of latae sententiae excommunication is the rationale that Latin Catholic theologians down through the centuries have used to assert that a Pope who becomes a heretic is no longer Pope (whether he is a private or public heretic is of course a relevant though distinguishable issue).

Blessings,
Marduk