Communing in an Orthodox church

[Nine_Two]

I find it a bit tiring hearing disagreement to Catholicism being attributed to the individuals former protestantism. There may be a few people driven by that, but the idea that it is common is silly.

When I made the decision to convert I was quite anti-Protestant and held Catholicism in a sort of awe. My dealings with Protestants and Catholics in the time since have tempered my opinions, however in spite of what many Catholics seem to believe, just because I think you are wrong, doesn’t mean I don’t respect you or your position.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I find dual agency in Christology to be an offensive affront against the dignity of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and a spiritually damaging teaching. In addition, I find non-single subject Christology to be offensive. Even more spiritually damaging, however, is the philosophical tendency of certain religious philosophers (there are no theologians outside of Orthodoxy, because nobody outside of the True Church can come to know God) towards essentialism which has destroyed the personal God revealed to us by Christ and the Holy Spirit. How dare others not believe what I believe!

Ok, on a more serious note, why would one find people out of communion with him or her believing differently to be offensive? I could continue rattling off a list of dozens of differences in theological emphasis, some of which I would find to be completely erroneous, but none of which I would find offensive. Also the toll houses are not an orthodox teaching. People who say so need to put down their Seraphim of Platina books for a while.

 

[Peter_J]

For the Orthodox faithful who are trying to piously and religiously live the faith, I think it’s hurtful to them if they were to find out that Roman Catholics are receiving their Sacraments in the same way that faithful Catholics probably would be if the Orthodox were receiving ours. (People may make comparisons with the Prodigal Son’s brother or with the Workers in the Vineyard who worked all day, but eeek no!).

Unless I’m greatly mistaken, it is *not *the same at all, any more than I could say “Anglicans feel the same way about communing Catholics as Catholic feel about communing Anglicans.”

 

[Hesychios]

I find it spiritually damaging to assert that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father alone …

Wow.

Fair enough, I must remember that here in the US there are a lot of young converts to Eastern Orthodoxy who generally come from Protestant evangelical backgrounds …

What do you think of Protestants who convert to Roman Catholicism?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I couldn’t help noticing your handle.

I have a relic of Saint Maria Goretti in a crucifix

Wow! That’s wonderful!

I understand, I feel about the same way. I have no animosity whatever, but no desire at all to receive Roman Catholic sacraments, so I can respect your position.

Actually, although I very much disagree with MariaGoretti88 and do not find anything about Orthodox Christianity to be offensive in any way (quite the contrary!), I also sympathize with you two on a practical level: I do not have any desire to receive the eastern Orthodox Holy Mysteries. I always find it weird and inexplicable when Latin Catholics seem to get their feelings hurt by the fact that we’re not permitted to receive Holy Communion from the Orthodox.

Perhaps it stems from a sense of entitlement sometimes common in the more ecumenically-minded liberal, western world. To me Latin Catholics’ being sad or frustrated about that always reminds me of when Protestants feel hurt or unwelcome by the fact that they cannot receive the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

As a Roman Catholic who has traveled extensivly in Orthodox countries I have found that MOST (not all though) Orthodox priests are very open to Catholics even offering us the sacraments.

35 years ago I spent 3 years in Greece and was given communion and confession regularly by quite a few priests who knew full well that I was RC. Since that time I have been to Russia for a few extended visits one of 9 months and another for 16 months. During both of these trips (one in 1995 the other in 2010-2011) I was given communion and confession by priests who also knew that I was a RC.

In my experience Orthodox outside the US tend to be much more open to communing catholics then here in the states. IMO this probably has something to do with the Orthodox being a small minority here as well as the large influx of former protestants and Roman Catholics who bring along a bit of anti roman baggage. I really don’t believe that the Orthodox here are “more Orthodox” then the Orthodox in Europe.

Wow! I had no idea; that’s encouraging.

For the Orthodox faithful who are trying to piously and religiously live the faith, I think it’s hurtful to them if they were to find out that Roman Catholics are receiving their Sacraments in the same way that faithful Catholics probably would be if the Orthodox were receiving ours.

Actually, canon law (844, paragraph 3) permits “Catholic ministers” to administer the Sacraments to eastern Orthodox if they ask for it and are properly disposed…

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

I find it spiritually damaging to assert that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father alone and the faulty explanations they give. That Papal Infallibility does not ever exist in any context. The no one is born with Original Sin, but rather inherits a propensity to sin. That the Dormition of the Theotokos is pious belief, but not dogma. That the term Transubstantiation is an insult to the Mystery of the Eucharist. The Aerial Toll-Houses frighten me and I blogged about how I wanted my particular judgment to be in the hands of God alone, not Him cooperating with demons who are the principal judges while my Guardian Angel just stands back and watches. That the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin is unnecessary if she was conceived the same way as all flesh.

I see that you don’t like it, but offensive? How can anyone be offended by it. Besides, from what I’ve heard aerial tollhouses aren’t dogma but a minority opinion attacked by many EO hierarchs.

And how is rejecting the filioque spiritually damaging? Why should the Dormition be dogma and thus necessary for salvation? Did you know that EC churches don’t have an augustinian understanding of original sin either and share the EO view? Are Eastern Catholics offensive?

I am, by the lack of being a confirmed EO or RC, a protestant, but intensively investigating if Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy is right for me. Am I offensive, by the virtue of being a ‘protestant’?

 

[MariaGoretti88]

I mean, whether or not I personally like or dislike something is kind of irrelevant and does not necessarily make it true because someone else may like it. I personally don’t like Communion in the hand, while someone else may not like Communion on the tongue, but both of are allowed to receive as we feel moved by the Spirit to receive.

Many do not understand some of the things that I get offended by as people come from different backgrounds. Hispanics or Whites or Asians may not understand why I have certain sensitivities as a Black person and am offended by certain things. It’s fine, I can’t make them. Other Catholics may or may not have dealt with Orthodox who are hostile to Catholicism, but even if they have, it doesn’t mean they’d react the same way as me. I am an individual and I’m really young (23), so maybe as I get older, I’ll have a better understanding. I don’t know.

I have to admit that although I’ve tried to understand and see Theology from an Eastern perspective, I just can’t (although I could explain it away to someone else in layman’s terms very easily most likely, but I still see things from a Western perspective mostly (some things I see from an Eastern perspective)).

Concerning how Eastern Catholcis view things, I’m not really a “majority-rules” kind of person so I am less moved by the “well, most people in this category think this way” approach but rather try to reconcile their practices in light of official documents (kinda like I tend to interpret the documents of the Second Vatican Council in a more traditional way).

Someone asked how I felt about Protestants who convert to Catholicism. Well…I won’t lie, I think Protestantism is false so I’m probably not going to give it any benefit of the doubt. I’ve tried, and cannot seem to do it. Also, that’s personal to me because most of my family has converted to Protestantism and along with those who remained Catholic have an awful understanding of Catholicism and it gets so frustrating, but even objectively speaking, any spiritual benefit of Protestantism in my mind can also be found in Roman Catholicism, so I guess I just can’t say much good about it. You’re also asking someone who hesitates calling Protestants Christian… I’m much less hesitant to call an Orthodox Christian, but Protestantism is another story.

smhh…

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Well, I’m not Catholic or Orthodox yet, even worse, I even have the audacity to agree 100% with eastern theology and praxis. Does that mean that I’m not a christian?

Besides, do you really think calling fellow christians infidels will make them see the truth of the RCC and make them come running to your church?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I have to admit that although I’ve tried to understand and see Theology from an Eastern perspective, I just can’t (although I could explain it away to someone else in layman’s terms very easily most likely, but I still see things from a Western perspective mostly (some things I see from an Eastern perspective)).

Wow! That’s really interesting - for me, the eastern perspective has always made far more sense. I guess people just see things differently.

I see that you don’t like it, but offensive? How can anyone be offended by it. Besides, from what I’ve heard aerial tollhouses aren’t dogma but a minority opinion attacked by many EO hierarchs.

And how is rejecting the filioque spiritually damaging? Why should the Dormition be dogma and thus necessary for salvation? Did you know that EC churches don’t have an augustinian understanding of original sin either and share the EO view? Are Eastern Catholics offensive?

These are great questions, and they raise the important point that these points of eastern theology and spirituality cannot be legitimately be regarded by Catholics as spiritually destructive, since eastern churches who believe and practice them are fully a part of the Catholic Church.

Well, I’m not Catholic or Orthodox yet, even worse, I even have the audacity to agree 100% with eastern theology and praxis. Does that mean that I’m not a christian?

I know you weren’t asking me, but I’ll butt in once again to say that I think you’d be hard-pressed to find even a single Catholic who would say that “agreeing 100% with eastern theology and praxis” makes you non-Christian. That would be nonsense, beyond even absurdity. Even those who struggle with the differences wouldn’t dare to make such a claim.

 

[Peter_J]

What do you think of Protestants who convert to Roman Catholicism?

This is an article that touches on both Convert Provovateurs

 

[Peter_J]

Actually, although I very much disagree with MariaGoretti88 and do not find anything about Orthodox Christianity to be offensive in any way (quite the contrary!), I also sympathize with you two on a practical level: I do not have any desire to receive the eastern Orthodox Holy Mysteries. I always find it weird and inexplicable when Latin Catholics seem to get their feelings hurt by the fact that we’re not permitted to receive Holy Communion from the Orthodox.

I myself find it a little strange when people (Catholic or otherwise) say that other denominations’ beliefs are “offensive”. I feel like this is a kind of substitute for “heretical” (which hardly anyone wants to say anymore).

 

[Peter_J]

Well, I’m not Catholic or Orthodox yet, even worse, I even have the audacity to agree 100% with eastern theology and praxis. Does that mean that I’m not a christian?

Besides, do you really think calling fellow christians infidels will make them see the truth of the RCC and make them come running to your church?

That’s just the sort of thing I’ve been trying to tell people on the Orthodox forum.

 

[MariaGoretti88]

I believe you can be 100% Christian and call yourself Catholic and accept Roman Catholic doctrine/dogma in an Eastern perspective. I don’t think you can accept all of Eastern Orthodox doctrine (or any non-Catholic doctrine) and still call yourself Catholic (at least not according to Baltimore Catechism or the Council of Trent, or the Second Vatican Council where these things are discussed).

As long as you’re trying to believe all that God has taught and handed down to us and give full assent then we get closer and closer to coming to our One, True God in the Catholic Church even if we aren’t fully Catholic yet (Protestants, Orthodox, Orientals, etc.).

Different people have different criteria for calling someone Christian, most people using it to distinguish us who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, like a category of textbook sense. I believe a Christian is someone who is part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Ideally, Roman Catholic and Christian are interchangeable terms in my opinion, but others are free to disagree because I don’t think their salvation is in danger because they have a broader definition of the word.

Those who are not yet members of the Church, but are discerning and praying about where to go next receive many graces from the desire alone and the Lord does promise to those who seek that they will find and according to First Kings (or First Samuel), many who aren’t physically in the Church can be mystically part of it.

 

[Hesychios]

That’s just the sort of thing I’ve been trying to tell people on the Orthodox forum.

Good advice.

 

[MariaGoretti88]

Besides, do you really think calling fellow christians infidels will make them see the truth of the RCC and make them come running to your church?

Oh my definitely not. I certainly wasn’t feeling too convinced about Eastern Orthodoxy when I was told I was a member of the Whore of Babylon; I feel like they could have used other language to let me know I was not a member of the True Church in their eyes. Being tactful can go a looong way =/ shrugs shoulds

 

[Peter_J]

I believe you can be 100% Christian and call yourself Catholic and accept Roman Catholic doctrine/dogma in an Eastern perspective.

Well, yes, in much the same way that you can live in America your whole and still be an American.

 

[Nine_Two]

I have to say Maria,

Though I disagree with you, I find you to be quite a breath of fresh air. I thank you for feeling free to express your thoughts.

If there is to be unity between Catholics and Orthodox, this is how it must happen.

God bless.

 

[MariaGoretti88]

Well, yes, in much the same way that you can live in America your whole and still be an American.

They kinda asked for it. They said I said Eastern thinking Catholic Christians weren’t Christian, so I corrected them that they interpreted me poorly lol.

I have to say Maria,

Though I disagree with you, I find you to be quite a breath of fresh air. I thank you for feeling free to express your thoughts.

If there is to be unity between Catholics and Orthodox, this is how it must happen.

God bless.

Thanks!

 

[Peter_J]

Good advice.

Thanks. I have some first-hand experience of how Eastern Orthodox can be unecumenical (or anti-ecumenical). In one recent conversation I made the mistake of going against an anti-Protestant statement by one Orthodox poster, and was rewarded by having another Orthodox poster start a rumor me: that I think that “Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church”.

 

[Nine_Two]

Thanks. I have some first-hand experience of how Eastern Orthodox can be unecumenical (or anti-ecumenical). In one recent conversation I made the mistake of going against an anti-Protestant statement by one Orthodox poster, and was rewarded by having another Orthodox poster start a rumor me: that I think that “Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church”.

The problem with forums, it is so easy to misrepresent those who disagree with you.