Communion after joining other religions

[Rolltide]

You say it does not matter if there are any liberal Catholics here to answer my questions. But isn’t it true that there are large numbers of liberal Catholics who feel free to ignore some chuch teachings they find ridiculous? If some of them were on this website, wouldn’t I be getting replies suggesting a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy regarding whether I am eligible for communion? I strongly suspect there are some Catholic priests who would tell me this in private. If there were liberal Catholics on this website, wouldn’t I be getting replies from some telling me they know people who are technically ineligible for communion but go anyway, and in their parish no one is worrying about this? I’m not asking if you folks here agree with these positions, I’m just asking if it is not the case that liberal Catholics might be giving me these kinds of answers,

Why would you consider this teaching of the church to be ridiculous? Over 70% of the world’s Christians practice closed communion. In addition to Catholics, the Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental) and some Lutherans practice the same thing. In fact, if you were to go to an Orthodox Church, not only would you find closed Communion, but if the priest did not recognize you, he would likely seek you out to question your beliefs before services began, and possibly deny you Communion IN LINE if your answer was not satisfactory.

Although you fear that you are finding the “ultra-conservative” point of view here, what you are in fact looking for is an “ultra-liberal” point of view to agree with you. Yes, you will find a few people who hold to those opinions, but they are part of a minority. If they hold to that position, then they are sinning, according to any official statement of the Catholic Church

 

[grandfather]

kpb,

Understand that the Church does not excommunicate you. You do that to yourself. The Church defines her doctrines. Those who accept them are Catholic. Those who reject them are not.
Why would anyone who does not believe the things a religion teaches want to belong to that religion or participate in its ceremonies or practices? The Church does not condemn those who reject her teachings. What is being communicated to those who separate themselves from the Church is that they are on their own by their own will or choice. It is like saying, this is what we beleive, but you do not believe it, so you have chosen another way. We wish you well. We hope for your ultimate good, but by doing what you have done we believe you are in danger and we hope you will come back to join us again.

 

[kpk]

If you ask the Sufis or the Protestants where you like going what they think of the Catholic doctrines or practices that they object to they will tell you they are incompatible with what they believe.

Not true. The head of my Sufi order (A traditional Islamic Sufi order) has been asked numerious times by Christians and Jews if they need to leave their religion to really be a Sufi. He says no, they don’t, and recomends they use their Sufi practice to become a better Christian or a better Jew.

My Congregationalist pastor says she definately believes other religions are valid.

The question never came up during the years I was involved at a Zen Buddhist meditation center. Buddhists would never dream of declaring other religions incompatable with Buddhist teaching.

I know this is impossible for you literalists to understand.

 

[Rolltide]

Well, the declarations don’t get more official OR recent than this…

Pope: Other Denominations not True Churches
MSNBC News Services

msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

Benedict issues statement asserting that Jesus established ‘only one church’

MSNBC News Services
updated 8:52 a.m. CT, Tues., July. 10, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.

On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

[Edited by Moderator]

 

[LDNCatholic]

Not true. The head of my Sufi order (A traditional Islamic Sufi order) has been asked numerious times by Christians and Jews if they need to leave their religion to really be a Sufi. He says no, they don’t, and recomends they use their Sufi practice to become a better Christian or a better Jew.

My Congregationalist pastor says she definately believes other religions are valid.

The question never came up during the years I was involved at a Zen Buddhist meditation center. Buddhists would never dream of declaring other religions incompatable with Buddhist teaching.

I know this is impossible for you literalists to understand.

While they might not see the incompatability, Catholicism says we are not to be members of other religions, so in that one statement, it IS incompatible with other religions.

As for your last sentence, just because you claim to be a member of a mystical Islamic sect, and do Zen Buddhist meditation, it does not make you somehow more capable of understanding than the rest of us. You might like to think what you’re doing is wonderful and exotic and esoteric and filled with Eastern wisdom but please in the future refrain from making assumptions on the spiritual intelligence of ‘‘us literalists’’.

 

[jmcrae]

Any liberal Catholics out there?

I am a liberal, in the sense that I believe in social justice, I believe that all human beings are created purposefully by God with equal dignity (meaning that no human being - woman, man, black, brown, white, poor, rich, etc. - has ever been born merely to be the slave of another), I believe in universal education and universal health care, that human rights belong to all humans regardless of age, sex, wealth, or postion - and so on.

To your amazement, I suppose, I agree with everyone here that we need to be in full communion with the Church in order to receive Holy Communion.

The reason is that it is, in fact, a core tenet of authentic liberalism that we don’t engage in “cultural appropriation” - that is, the hijacking of the traditional customs of others or even of our own ancestors (their art, their music, their practices) to twist them to our own purposes.

Rather, we identify our goals, and then create original art, original music, etc. to achieve them.

What this means is, if you want to create a “do-it-yourself” religion, then you do so from “scratch.” You don’t borrow from here and borrow from there things that already contain specific meanings of their own - we don’t rip other people’s customs out from their proper context and recycle them - this is vastly disrespectful, and it’s just as disrespectful whether you’re doing it to First Nations art, or to the Catholic Mass.

 

[jmcrae]

You say it does not matter if there are any liberal Catholics here to answer my questions. But isn’t it true that there are large numbers of liberal Catholics who feel free to ignore some chuch teachings they find ridiculous?

Those aren’t “liberals”; those are “dissenters”. As a liberal, I’m offended to be lumped in with the disobedient.

If some of them were on this website, wouldn’t I be getting replies suggesting a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy regarding whether I am eligible for communion?

No. Rather, I would advise you to examine your conscience carefully, and seek the greater good of the whole community - what can I do that shows respect for all? Sometimes the greater good of the whole community and showing respect for all means putting aside my personal desires and making a small sacrifice.

I strongly suspect there are some Catholic priests who would tell me this in private. If there were liberal Catholics on this website, wouldn’t I be getting replies from some telling me they know people who are technically ineligible for communion but go anyway, and in their parish no one is worrying about this? I’m not asking if you folks here agree with these positions, I’m just asking if it is not the case that liberal Catholics might be giving me these kinds of answers,

There are dissenters who might tell you this, but I wouldn’t call them good liberals.

 

[jmcrae]

My new found appreciation for Catholicism comes from reading Richard Rohr and Thomas Keating.

Back when I was in a position similar to yours, wondering whether I could be able to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, I attended a talk that was given by a follower of Thomas Keating.

At one point in his talk, he said something to the effect that “Holy Communion should be open to all; people should not approach the Sacrament with a sense of guilt.”

At that point, I described my circumstances, and asked for clarification, whether “someone in that situation” (meaning, of course, myself) could be permitted to receive Holy Communion, and his reaction was immediate and strong - “Good God, no - I am referring to people who are otherwise good Catholics, and not in the state of mortal sin.” He then went on to describe the teaching of the Church using much the same terminology that people here on this web site typically use.

So, I joined the RCIA, and my RCIA instructor was a fan of Richard Rohr, but he was also of the strong opinion that we needed to go to Confession before receiving our Sacraments of Initiation, at the proper time and in the proper order.

So, no, I doubt that either Richard Rohr or Thomas Keating would support your ideas, here, once the rubber actually hits the road.

 

[idrum677]

But isn’t it true that there are large numbers of liberal Catholics who feel free to ignore some chuch teachings they find ridiculous? …

I strongly suspect there are some Catholic priests who would tell me this in private. …

Its also true that there are a large number of teenagers who feel free to ignore their parents rules and teachings.

I suppose you could find some parents that say its ok to let kids drink, do drugs, and have sex.

Does that change the need for rules and boundaries for teenagers?

Does it make it right?

In the end, most teens after their rebelious years come back and say that their parents were right.

Being Catholic is not about liberal or orthodox. It is accepting the Fullness Truth that Jesus gave us which the Church upholds and sharing in His Mystical Body.

You definately are being called by God to come home. Like the Prodigal Son, He will welcome you with open arms. Pray on this.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

What it seems like you are looking for is to see if anyone out here agrees with your point of view. Perhaps there are some people who call themselves “Catholic” who will agree with you just like I can find a math teacher who claims that 2+2=3. Can that person, however, clearly say they are speaking on behalf of the Church when the precepts of the Church clearly indicate that you are not permitted to receive the Body and Blood of Christ and what they are saying is contrary to this? Just like the math teacher who gives the wrong answer to an equation, I would be leery of these “Catholics” who lead you down the wrong path. Your may also want to consider getting a copy of the Catholic Catechism and other books on the Catholic Church and learn not only WHAT She believes but also WHY She believes. My prayers are with you.

 

[catherineajt]

The reason the “all religions are valid” stance makes me twitchy is this…if they’re all valid, then why even pick one? Why stick with, say, the Congregationalist Church when the Mormon one would be just the same, as far as “validity” goes?

Because it’s about what’s comfy. What doesn’t make you get up early in the morning, or not having to give up meat on Fridays. What doesn’t make you feel bad about yourself, or what makes you feel superior. The desire for the human ego to be on top is what fuels that decision.

For myself, I like Catholicism not just because i was raised in its traditions, but because it does emphasize putting GOD before oneself. It keeps my ego in check. Confession is humbling. Receivng communion–when you believe it is the body and blood of Jesus Christ–is humbling.

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear KPK,

There are other Catholics that hold similar believes or perhaps a better way of saying it; spiritual practices (orthopraix) that you do.

Yes there are Catholics that maintain Buddhist spiritual practices. As well as those who practice “moving meditation” with the Sufi’s. And not turn away from their membership in the Catholic Church. One only has to read books by Thomas Merton, Bede Griffths, Wayne Teasdale, etc to discover this reality. Or read any of the thousands of mystics in the western Catholic tradition to find that there is no barriers in the belief that truth is truth regardless of it’s source.

The vast majority of Catholic Dioceses in the United States have coventants with their Episcopal Dioceses counter parts. You will find the same to hold true with the religious communities in the Catholic Church, i.e. the Episcopal Benedictians are members of the worldwide federation of benedictians as well as Catholic Benedictians.

Towards the One

Your brother in Christ,

Br Mark, OSB

 

[grandfather]

one of the earliest heresies condemned by the Church was called syncretism. Its premise was that there all the different known religions of the time should be blended with and embraced by Christianity. The Church then condemned this idea then as she has to this day. The Church is a hierarchical insitituion. While there might be found somewhere a priest who would tell you to defy the practices and laws of the Church and receive Communion in your present state, the Church speaks very clearly from the popes (all of them), the bishops, every catechism published, canon law, general instructions, that you are not welcome to receive at this time. You persist in trying to find some excuse to defy the Church, because you want to disregard and reject the teaching authority of the Church and make yourself an authority unto yourself. You are not a follower of Catholic religion. You do not belong to it. You are a mixture, your own mixture. What happens in any society when people decide to pick and choose which of its norms they will accept or reject is the disintegration of that society. I think most of our society’s laws are ok, but disagree with the idea that taking drugs is a bad thing, believe that the laws about stealing are somewhat flexible and that there is nothing wrong with assasinating known crooked politicians without trial, that the speed limits and trafiic laws only apply between the hours of 8AM and 7PM. .If you insist on sneaking into the Communion line disobeying the Church you will suffer severe consequences. Please do not take that as a threat. It is a warning. Please do not do this. It will not bring anything good to you, but only harm.

 

[benedictgal]

Dear KPK,

There are other Catholics that hold similar believes or perhaps a better way of saying it; spiritual practices (orthopraix) that you do.

Yes there are Catholics that maintain Buddhist spiritual practices. As well as those who practice “moving meditation” with the Sufi’s. And not turn away from their membership in the Catholic Church. One only has to read books by Thomas Merton, Bede Griffths, Wayne Teasdale, etc to discover this reality. Or read any of the thousands of mystics in the western Catholic tradition to find that there is no barriers in the belief that truth is truth regardless of it’s source.

The vast majority of Catholic Dioceses in the United States have coventants with their Episcopal Dioceses counter parts. You will find the same to hold true with the religious communities in the Catholic Church, i.e. the Episcopal Benedictians are members of the worldwide federation of benedictians as well as Catholic Benedictians.

Towards the One

Your brother in Christ,

Br Mark, OSB

Brother Mark:

With all due respect, there are some shades of relativism in your post. Inasmuch as I recognze that the Anglicans do have Benedictines and other orders, we should bear in mind what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said in his homily to mark the start of the Conclave that eventually elected him Pope:

Let us dwell on only two points. The first is the journey towards “the maturity of Christ” as it is said in the Italian text, simplifying it a bit. More precisely, according to the Greek text, we should speak of the “measure of the fullness of Christ”, to which we are called to reach in order to be true adults in the faith. We should not remain infants in faith, in a state of minority. And what does it mean to be an infant in faith? Saint Paul answers: it means “tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery” (Eph 4, 14). This description is very relevant today!

How many winds of doctrine we have known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves * thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. Every day new sects are created and what Saint Paul says about human trickery comes true, with cunning which tries to draw those into error (cf Eph 4, 14). Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and “swept along by every wind of teaching”, looks like the only attitude (acceptable) to today’s standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.

However, we have a different goal: the Son of God, true man. He is the measure of true humanism. Being an “Adult” means having a faith which does not follow the waves of today’s fashions or the latest novelties. A faith which is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ is adult and mature. It is this friendship which opens us up to all that is good and gives us the knowledge to judge true from false, and deceit from truth. We must become mature in this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith * only faith * which creates unity and takes form in love. On this theme, Saint Paul offers us some beautiful words - in contrast to the continual ups and downs of those were are like infants, tossed about by the waves: (he says) make truth in love, as the basic formula of Christian existence. In Christ, truth and love coincide. To the extent that we draw near to Christ, in our own life, truth and love merge. Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like “a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal” (1 Cor 13,1).

This is very much consistent with the section from Dominus Iesus that I posted in response to your post (which had somehow temporarily disappeared). Budhism and the Church are incompatible. There are some questionable things about Fr. Thomas Merton. Why not recommend Sts. Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross, individuals who have been declared bona fide saints of the Church (and doctors0?

Mixing and matching may work for wardrobe and, in my case, lipstick shades. However, it doesn’t work at all for the Faith.