Communion bread- illicit or invalid?

mfundis · Aug 3, 2004

I’m hoping that someone can shed some light on this…My parish uses the “homemade bread” that people have been talking about in another thread. This bread is made with a touch of honey, salt, (and may even have a small bit of baking soda- although I’m not sure). I know that this is not the right thing for the Roman rite, but just figured that it was illicit- not invalid. Does anyone know if our parish is receiving the Eucharist or not (we have the blood, too, but my kids only take the body). I have always tried to pick my battles in this parish :banghead: - but if the Eucharist isn’t valid, I’m going to have to pick this as a battle.

…Also, if it is invalid matter, can someone explain why the eastern rites can use leaven and it still be valid while we can’t. In other words- how can leaven bread be valid in the eastern rites if that same bread would be rendered invalid in the Roman rite since we belong to the same church?

Thanks for your help in advance!
Mel :

Br.Rich_SFO · Aug 3, 2004

mfundis:

I’m hoping that someone can shed some light on this…My parish uses the “homemade bread” that people have been talking about in another thread. This bread is made with a touch of honey, salt, (and may even have a small bit of baking soda- although I’m not sure). I know that this is not the right thing for the Roman rite, but just figured that it was illicit- not invalid. Does anyone know if our parish is receiving the Eucharist or not (we have the blood, too, but my kids only take the body). I have always tried to pick my battles in this parish :banghead: - but if the Eucharist isn’t valid, I’m going to have to pick this as a battle. …Also, if it is invalid matter, can someone explain why the eastern rites can use leaven and it still be valid while we can’t. In other words- how can leaven bread be valid in the eastern rites if that same bread would be rendered invalid in the Roman rite since we belong to the same church?

Thanks for your help in advance!
Mel :

Yes you are receiving the Body of Christ. A priest could park a loaf of “wonder bread” on the altar and it would become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. I don’t recomend this however!

mfundis · Aug 3, 2004

I’m SOO relieved! :dancing:

Although that does give a spin on WONDER bread…

Mel

KennySe · Aug 3, 2004

I think there should be a little more discussion on this topic.

Like… what do official Church documents say?

ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0840-1165.htm#par1878

ARTICLE 3: THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 §1 The most holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist must be celebrated in bread, and in wine to which a small quantity of water is to be added.

§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.

Mel,
describe the care that is shown to the “homemade bread” which then becomes Holy Eucharist.

Is the Eucharist leaving particles?

rfk · Aug 3, 2004

mfundis:

This bread is made with a touch of honey, salt, (and may even have a small bit of baking soda- although I’m not sure).

It is worth asking for the exact recipe. As you noted, the Eucharist is certainly illicit (i.e., breaks the rules), but you need to know the recipe to know for certain if it is valid or invalid. The very act of asking for the recipe will also surely raise the question, 'Why?" That is a nice lead-in for making the point that the Eucharist is illicit in passing as you address the issue of validity.
Br. Rich SFO:

Yes you are receiving the Body of Christ. A priest could park a loaf of “wonder bread” on the altar and it would become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. I don’t recomend this however!

Br. Rich, I think you are doing a disservice to the questioner to answer the issue so flippantly.

I think you know that normally I try to be charitable in my posts – I have even defended the lack of charity against you in other posts.

However, there are serious questions about the validity of a Eucharist, depending upon the ingredients.

From the Dioces of Lincoln website:

In the Latin rite of the Catholic Church the only ingredients permitted in the altar breads which will be consecrated at Mass are wheat flour and water. The wheat flour may be whole or refined. It is illicit (illegal) to use any other ingredients and it would be seriously sinful for a priest to knowingly permit such an abuse. If more than half the liquid were not water (for instance, eggs, molasses, shortening, etc.) or if more than half the flour were not wheat flour, the Eucharist offered would not only be illicit but also invalid. In other words, it would truly not be a Mass at all. To knowingly worship an invalid Eucharist would be a sin of idolatry.

A quote from the National Catholic Reporter of a letter from the Boston Archbishop:

“The law of the church is extremely explicit regarding bread and wine used for the eucharistic celebration. In keeping with the Last Supper narrative found in the gospels, the bread must be made of wheat alone. Anything else would be an invalid matter and thus would not be the Eucharist.”

From Canon Law:

Can. 924 §1 The most holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist must be celebrated in bread, and in wine to which a small quantity of water is to be added.
§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.
§3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.

Deacon_Ed · Aug 3, 2004

The bread would be illicit if it just had a small quantity of these additives. It would be invalid if the quantity were such that it rendered the product no longer bread. If, for example, the result were cake it would not be valid. It sounds like the bread in use in your parish is valid but illicit.

Deacon Ed

KennySe · Aug 3, 2004

This may be a useful 3-pager for us to have handy.

(must have AcrobatReader)

cuf.org/member/breadwine.pdf

rfk · Aug 3, 2004

KennySe:

…useful 3-pager…

Thanks, it was helpful.

Here is one part that I needed to be reminded of:

If one suspects the use of invalid matter, resist the desire to speak uncharitably toward the pastor and/or bishop (cf. Ex. 16:2-12; Num. 16). Instead, offer any imperfections and distractions as a sacrifice in union with our Eucharistic Lord for our salvation and that of the universal Church. Continually look for a providential opportunity to express our concerns in a manner which respects the proper discipline of the Church.

Keeping in mind that the Church maintains a high regard for personal reputation, we must make sure that our
orthodoxy (right belief and discipline) is accompanied by orthopraxy (right action). In other words, we need to cultivate and use the virtues that right Faith avails usóvirtues such as patience, fortitude, and, above all, charity. Orthodoxy requires us to promote the truth, but never allows us to offend against charity. As Vatican II teaches us, ì[O]ne who does not . . . persevere in charity is not savedî (Lumen Gentium, no. 14; cf. Catechism, no. 837). The proper disciplines of the Church protect one from violating these necessary points of conduct.

So let me apologize right up front if my post to Br. Rich seemed uncharitable.

Br.Rich_SFO · Aug 4, 2004

rfk:

Br. Rich, I think you are doing a disservice to the questioner to answer the issue so flippantly.

I think you know that normally I try to be charitable in my posts – I have even defended the lack of charity against you in other posts.

However, there are serious questions about the validity of a Eucharist, depending upon the ingredients.:

The questioner understood my reply. Most any wheat bread would Consecrate. The Priest would be committing a grave offense for allowing Illicit matter. The bottom line is that the questioner was/is receiving the Body of Christ, unless some other major detail was left out. Does the current situation need to be questioned and addressed? Yes.

mfundis · Aug 5, 2004

Sorry for not acknowledging anyone sooner. I can’t post from my computer at work (I can lurk)- and I have a hard time beating family off my computer at home to even get a chance to post~

The recipe does, in fact have about a tablespoons worth of honey, a teaspoon of salt (or so- I’m going from memory here), a teaspoon of baking soda (which I KNOW is an issue in the Roman Rite), a tablespoon of oil, water, and 2 different kinds of wheat flour (which is fine I know).

deogratias · Aug 5, 2004

UNLEVENED BREAD

The Abuse: Levened bread is being used instead of unlevened bread, it contains honey and is being baked at a local bakery.

Documentation:
Redemptionis Sacramentum Chapter III #1.
Congregation for Divine Worship, Instruction, Liturgicae instaurationes, 5 September 1970: AAS 62 (1970) p. 694
Code of Canon Law, can. 924 §2;

Missale Romanum, Institutio Generalis, n. 320.
Congregation for the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Dominus Salvator noster, 26 March 1929, n. 1: AAS 21 (1929) pp. 631-642, here p. 632.
Dominus Salvator noster, 26 March 1929, n. 1: AAS21 (1929): AAS 21 (1929) p. 635.

MiddleBear · Aug 6, 2004

This is a very serious matter.

For reference get the videos on the CCC by Father John Corapi.

If the bread had honey, soda etc. it would be invalid.

If the wine was a reserve wine “juice added” then that too would be invalid.

If you received communion as a host made with honey, then you did not receive the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord under the species of bread.

If however you also recieved communion at that same Mass under the species of wine , and the wine was only wine (not a reserve wine) then you recieved the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord.

Br.Rich_SFO · Aug 6, 2004

MiddleBear:

This is a very serious matter.

For reference get the videos on the CCC by Father John Corapi.

If the bread had honey, soda etc. it would be invalid.

If the wine was a reserve wine “juice added” then that too would be invalid.

If you received communion as a host made with honey, then you did not receive the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord under the species of bread.

If however you also recieved communion at that same Mass under the species of wine , and the wine was only wine (not a reserve wine) then you recieved the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord.

WRONG

If the bread had honey, soda etc. it would be invalid.

If the wine was a reserve wine “juice added” then that too would be invalid.

If you received communion as a host made with honey, then you did not receive the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord under the species of bread

WRONG

rfk · Aug 6, 2004

MiddleBear:

If the bread had honey, soda etc. it would be invalid.

If the wine was a reserve wine “juice added” then that too would be invalid.

I think you are confusing the distinction between “illicit” and “invalid”. These are important distinctions to understand.

Illicit means it is against the rules, an infraction, not fully legal. If a priest says an illicit Mass, then the priest has incurred his own sin, but that does not means anyone else has sinned. Transubstantiation still occurs; the Holy Communion is still the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord.

Invalid means the Transubstantiation did not take place. The bread and wine remain only bread and wine.

The bread has to have a “substantial amount” of other ingedients before it is considered to be “no longer wheat bread”. For example, if over half the liguids are milk and eggs, you are baking a cake, not bread. If it is not bread, then it becomes invalid.

A little bit of honey, sugar, baking soda, etc. makes the bread illicit but not invalid. That is why I asked about the recipe. If it is using a tablespoon of oil in 4 cups of water, then it is illicit. If it is using 2 cups of milk to 2 cups of water, it is invalid.

deogratias · Aug 6, 2004

Redemptionis Sacramentum

**

The Matter of the Most Holy Eucharist

[48.] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition.[123] It follows therefore that bread made from another substance,** even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament.[124] It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist**. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.[125]

**

Bobby_Jim · Aug 6, 2004

KennySe:

§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.

The “recently made” bit is an interesting criterion. I know for a fact that the wafer hosts we use last practically forever - months at least. They may get a little stale after a long time out of the package, but they never get moldy or anything.

I don’t know if there are preservatives added to these or not. I’ve heard that some suppliers add preservatives but I’m not totally sure. I would assume that potassium benzoate is illicit, but does not invalidate the wafer recipe.

Bobby_Jim · Aug 6, 2004

MiddleBear:

If the bread had honey, soda etc. it would be invalid.

If the wine was a reserve wine “juice added” then that too would be invalid.

If you received communion as a host made with honey, then you did not receive the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord under the species of bread.

If however you also recieved communion at that same Mass under the species of wine , and the wine was only wine (not a reserve wine) then you recieved the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord.

There was recently an incident in my diocese in which a concerned parishoner wrote a newspaper editorial about the illicit bread recipe at her parish. It contained honey and a couple other ingredients - it was still a “bread”, not a cake or muffin or anything. But in the article, this woman said that you may as well have been eating a pop-tart, because it was invalid matter, and you didn’t receive the Body of Christ at all, and that the whole Mass at this church was sacrilege because this bread was being called the Body of Christ when it really wasn’t.

The bishop was very disturbed by this. He was concerned about the bread, and told the pastor of the parish that they should be using wheat and water only (and they have since changed). And then he told the woman that she had absolutely no business telling people that they didn’t receive a valid communion, or that the consecration wasn’t valid - that was absolutely not her call to make.

KennySe · Aug 6, 2004

Bobby Jim:

There was recently an incident in my diocese in which a concerned parishoner wrote a newspaper editorial about the illicit bread recipe at her parish. It contained honey and a couple other ingredients - it was still a “bread”, not a cake or muffin or anything. But in the article, this woman said that you may as well have been eating a pop-tart, because it was invalid matter, and you didn’t receive the Body of Christ at all, and that the whole Mass at this church was sacrilege because this bread was being called the Body of Christ when it really wasn’t.

The bishop was very disturbed by this. He was concerned about the bread, and told the pastor of the parish that they should be using wheat and water only (and they have since changed). And then he told the woman that she had absolutely no business telling people that they didn’t receive a valid communion, or that the consecration wasn’t valid - that was absolutely not her call to make.

The Bishop was correct.

She had no right to cause scandal. She should have presented her concern humbly to her priest. And then, if necessary, to her bishop.
Did she explain that 50%of the ingredients were not wheat and water? Did she give the list of ingredients and their percentages?
Does she know that illicit bread still becomes VALID Holy Eucharist?

A little knoweldge is a dangerous thing.

Sparky · Aug 6, 2004

According to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM):

The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, must be recently baked, and, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, must be unleavened.

So anything else is just not good enough, period. Best be safe and use the standard host than cause trouble.
–Ann

Communion bread- illicit or invalid?

mfundis

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Br.Rich_SFO

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mfundis

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rfk

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