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CMatt25
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Luke, it could be worse. You could be a cradle Catholic and struggle your whole life with things like this.
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rinnie
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Actually thats not true. Just because you recognize our sacrament of Baptism you reject our sacrament of Confession.
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chris_molter
Guest
Well, it would depend on why they believe that and whether they are trying to further inform their conscience by finding out why the Church teaches that it’s a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays and other Holy Days of Obligation (without grave cause, of course). It also depends on why they disbelieve that it’s a mortal sin.
Do they deny that the Church has the authority to say if something is a grave sin?
Do they deny that Sunday is the Sabbath for Christians?
Do they deny the commandment to keep the Sabbath?
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rinnie
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Luke I do not see where you feel that you have the authority to give or reject communion anyway. Do you see what I am saying. Even if you were Catholic thats not your call. Unless I am misunderstanding you quetion completely
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Tantum_ergo
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Um, you could also add that the ‘official policy’ is God’s policy. Not ‘the Church adding onto, or denying God’s word’, but the Church carrying out God’s word.
I certainly feel that there is a big difference between being part of a communion which is ‘castigated by the world’ for carrying out GOD’S policy (the Catholic Church) and
being part of a communion which is so mean and nasty in 'refusing Christians the Eucharist because we’re mean and stick man-made rules in to hurt" (the ‘perception’, and a false one, OF the Catholic Church.)
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rinnie
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I guess it comes down to Authority Luke. I believe that the Pope has Authority to make the calls because Jesus gave him the keys. You either accept authority or you reject it.
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CMatt25
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First to the OP I want to apologize for hijacking this thread. I guess the idea expressed of not receiving Communion in a state of grave sin led me to these questions, as to the definition of these sins. But I am sorry.
But Chris just to answer, what if they believed any of the above? I know folks who profess Christ as Lord and Savior but do not believe Sunday is a holy day and certainly don’t believe Nov 1, Dec 8, or Jan 1 are. Or even someone catechized Catholic, understands what the Church teaches yet in good conscience believes the Church can err on saying what is grave sin?
I don’t mean to go in circles with this. I know it’s complicated. And I understand where everyone is coming from about following what the Church teaches. Thanks for your responses. God bless!
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wmscott
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This is a very good explanation here jmcrae, so I will not reiterate all that you have pointed out, also Spencerian provided scriptural reference as to the rational. However, what I think folks are missing here by being offended for being excluded is that it is quite the opposite. The folks that feel offended and left out, really need to understand what is happening, because if they did, they would actually be appreciative.The first thing you need to realize is that in the Catholic faith, Holy Communion is not a “fellowship meal” and you are not being “excluded” from some kind of private club.
We also have fellowship suppers, and you are more than welcome to attend these and to partake of the meal that is served there.
For Catholics, Holy Communion is a Sacrament of Initiation - when we say “Amen” to the Body of Christ, we are saying “Amen” (let it be so) to everything that our Church teaches us. We are partaking of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ as we do so, in order to come into complete unity with Christ and our whole Church.
Since we assume that people are Protestant because they have not yet come to agree with the whole teaching of the Catholic Church, we think it would be inappropriate for them to say “Amen” to it, in the reception of Holy Communion in our church (since it is always a really bad idea to lie to God). In addition, because it is a Sacrament of Initiation, it would be inappropriate to offer it to someone who does not intend to take up the practice of the Catholic lifestyle immediately afterwards.
Fact is the Catholic Church cares very much for all souls (Protestants included
), not just Catholic souls, and as Spencerian referenced 1 Corinthians 11, the Catholic Church is so sensitive to protecting a person’s soul that the Church does not want anyone heaping condemnation upon themselves, either knowingly or unwittingly.So what is so offensive here? Is it because it is not properly understood as to the whys and what for’s? On the other hand, is it because it is a Catholic practice and anything Catholic needs to be disparaged?
Look for the good instead of always looking for the bad. Peace
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chris_molter
Guest
No, thank you for questioning in a friendly and irenic manner! It’s a much better conversation for both sides when we can try to stay focused and not devolve into personal attacks or condemnations.
Well, if they don’t believe in the 10 commandments, there’s not much we can do, is there?
I mean, God came down and gave those specific orders to Chuck Heston…er… Moses, and if someone’s gonna claim to follow God’s son and not buy into the original 10 biggies… sheesh. Why bother with Jesus if you don’t believe the 10 commandments?My suggestion to such folks would be the same for anyone who struggles with any Church teaching:
- Pray (Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief)
- Study (find out WHY the Church teaches what it does. The rules aren’t arbitrary!)
- If you aren’t satisfied, rinse and repeat until you’re either in accord with Catholic teaching or no longer able to remain a Catholic.
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jmcrae
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You judge yourself, but the criteria are external to you. It’s not about how you feel, or what you think you “deserve,” or what the total stranger sitting next to you might think.
Am I a member of this church organization? That’s a clear yes or no answer. If not, then no, you don’t receive Holy Communion there. You don’t need to worry about anything else; you just don’t receive Holy Communion .
If yes, then we continue - Am I correctly disposed to receive Holy Communion? Again, it’s clear - did you fast for one full hour? Did you arrive in time to hear the Gospel read out? If not, then no, you don’t receive Holy Communion at this Mass.
If yes, though, then we continue - Am I in the state of grace? Have I been to Confession since the last time I committed a mortal sin, and did I confess all of my mortal sins?
If we have three “Yesses” in a row, then we can receive Holy Communion, but if at any point we encounter a “no” then the answer is “no,” we don’t receive Holy Communion.
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jmcrae
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Since Protestants believe themselves to be “covered by the blood” they can’t envision themselves ever being in a state of sin, even if they happen to have committed murder (say for example, an abortion) or even if they are the antagonist in the proceedings of a really messy divorce, so although this is a true statement, it’s not likely to convince a Protestant not to partake of the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, since on the basis of their state of grace, they will always judge themselves to be in a state of grace.Fact is the Catholic Church cares very much for all souls (Protestants included
Rather, we need to focus on the fact that, even if a Protestant were in a perfect state of grace (which also could happen, if the Protestant in question were young enough, and had led a sheltered life) they still would not be permitted to partake of the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, because of the membership requirements, and out of respect for our beliefs, just in exactly the same way that they take their shoes off in a Japanese restaurant out of respect for Japanese culture, and just as they would wear the appropriate head-gear if they were to visit a Jewish synagogue.
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Deconi
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I have been ‘aware’ of The Catholic Church for at least 10years of marriage, but I reject her and most of her teachings! But I am a baptized Christian…so I should be 'Catholic"…and I want to participate in Communion…like I can in most other Christian churches.
It that obtinance or some kind of Christian cheating?
Incredible how some people discover the Sacraments and what they are…and ‘want’ to just take the ones they like but remain apart (in protest) from The Church that houses them!
The Catholic Church is not a club or organisation that you have a right to her sacraments and dogmas upon membership. It is the house of God on earth where His Truth subsits and THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, the child of God gets to go through all that He established here on earth for His followers to do!
We don’t get to accept portions, snippets, or favourite books of Scriptures and reject some…we take the whole shebang whether we understand them or not!
We don’t get to take some sacraments and reject some because we disagree or don’t understand them.
We don’t get to accept just the dogmas and doctrines we like and reject some because they’re difficult or we cannot comprehend them.
Good Catholic or bad Catholic is between the Catholic and God…but they’re still Catholic, called to practice the doctrines and dogmas of Catholicism, not by virture of Baptism, but through that baptism, accepting all else held and professed by The Catholic Church…which includes, Holy Communion.
It isn’t sufficient to just believe in the Real Presence.
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IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST AND THE CHURCH HE INSTITUTED TO ADMINISTER HIS SACRAMENTS**.
Any less than that…is…LESS.
It that obtinance or some kind of Christian cheating?
Incredible how some people discover the Sacraments and what they are…and ‘want’ to just take the ones they like but remain apart (in protest) from The Church that houses them!
The Catholic Church is not a club or organisation that you have a right to her sacraments and dogmas upon membership. It is the house of God on earth where His Truth subsits and THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, the child of God gets to go through all that He established here on earth for His followers to do!
We don’t get to accept portions, snippets, or favourite books of Scriptures and reject some…we take the whole shebang whether we understand them or not!
We don’t get to take some sacraments and reject some because we disagree or don’t understand them.
We don’t get to accept just the dogmas and doctrines we like and reject some because they’re difficult or we cannot comprehend them.
Good Catholic or bad Catholic is between the Catholic and God…but they’re still Catholic, called to practice the doctrines and dogmas of Catholicism, not by virture of Baptism, but through that baptism, accepting all else held and professed by The Catholic Church…which includes, Holy Communion.
It isn’t sufficient to just believe in the Real Presence.
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IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST AND THE CHURCH HE INSTITUTED TO ADMINISTER HIS SACRAMENTS**.
Any less than that…is…LESS.
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CMatt25
Guest
I probably should have been clearer on the folks who don’t believe Sun is a holy day. They give as one reason the commandment was about rest. But alas another topic entirely. Thanks to you as well. Hope that cold clear ups and you have a good weekend and God bless as well!No, thank you for questioning in a friendly and irenic manner! It’s a much better conversation for both sides when we can try to stay focused and not devolve into personal attacks or condemnations.
Well, if they don’t believe in the 10 commandments, there’s not much we can do, is there?
My suggestion to such folks would be the same for anyone who struggles with any Church teaching:
Anyway, my head cold is acting up, so I’m gonna go relax. Thanks for the interesting discussion, God bless, and have a good weekend!
- Pray (Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief)
- Study (find out WHY the Church teaches what it does. The rules aren’t arbitrary!)
- If you aren’t satisfied, rinse and repeat until you’re either in accord with Catholic teaching or no longer able to remain a Catholic.
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kh41507
Guest
New to this forum, thought I would offer my humble opinion on the matter. I believe denying a christian the right to receive a gift specifically mentioned by Christ himself in the gospels to be for ALL of his followers is shameful. For the people that quote the passage in 1 Corinthians 11, I wish you would read the entire letter addressing the church at Corinth. This passage was obviously written to a group of “christians” who were taking the gift of Christ in vain and not following the teachings that Christ laid out for us to love one another as brother. Paul was not speaking to deny anyone the gift that our Lord had given us, but simply attempting to correct the non-loving manner in which it was being recieved i.e. “Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink ? Or do you despise the church (see later Greek explanation of what church meant) of God and shame those who have nothing ? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.” People were coming and partaking in communion with one another while drunk and full, not appreciating fully the gift Christ had given us. By coming together and eating together as a “church”, the early christians were following a jewish custom of inviting to a meal thos which they wished to share peace and unity with. The church at Corinth was obviously denying the poor the opportunity to share in communion with them, explicitly denying the wishes of Christ. The word for church commonly used in the original Greek translations of the bible was Ekklesia- meaning in the simplest form a group of people (in this instance christians) coming together as a group.
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CMatt25
Guest
Just thought I would share this from another part of the forum. I thought the words about not denying the Eucharist if not instructed to do so by a priest was a kind and charitable response.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=420744
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=420744
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ufamtobie
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lordssoldier
Guest
there should be two lines.
obviously, we need to be welcoming, but enough is enough. there is only enough flesh, skin, ligament and bodily fluids of christ to go around people. I mean there are some sundays where I am thinking, how do they keep finding more of jesus’s body parts and shipping it to like two hundred churches on ups (or fedex)? I mean that’s alot of hungry mouths to feed with flesh and blood of jesus, and its got to be expensive with all the expeditions to the promised land to find more flesh and then to reliquify the dried out blood. the good thing is that with the shroud of turin, the catholic church could take dna samples from the blood and cloth and probably make genetically matching pieces of christ’s flesh, I mean, they grow ears on the backs of mice for crying out loud. but science is n’t that good yet and so we will have to dole out the rarest pieces of jehovah in smaller and smaller pieces.
my solutions for non catholics would be a special line special marked that says “non catholics” that only offers a couple pieces of jesus but mostly hands out rice chex. we could probably save folded chairs in the back for them, so we could easily disinfect them when they leave. it would probably make most since to have them stand in the back in a roped off area and then have them leave right after communion.
I am for the idea of limiting the consumption of christ to confirmed catholics, as well as genetically engineered flesh and blood of jesus. it seems to me to be the only way to go, especially with so many very very hungry catholics.
your thoughts?
obviously, we need to be welcoming, but enough is enough. there is only enough flesh, skin, ligament and bodily fluids of christ to go around people. I mean there are some sundays where I am thinking, how do they keep finding more of jesus’s body parts and shipping it to like two hundred churches on ups (or fedex)? I mean that’s alot of hungry mouths to feed with flesh and blood of jesus, and its got to be expensive with all the expeditions to the promised land to find more flesh and then to reliquify the dried out blood. the good thing is that with the shroud of turin, the catholic church could take dna samples from the blood and cloth and probably make genetically matching pieces of christ’s flesh, I mean, they grow ears on the backs of mice for crying out loud. but science is n’t that good yet and so we will have to dole out the rarest pieces of jehovah in smaller and smaller pieces.
my solutions for non catholics would be a special line special marked that says “non catholics” that only offers a couple pieces of jesus but mostly hands out rice chex. we could probably save folded chairs in the back for them, so we could easily disinfect them when they leave. it would probably make most since to have them stand in the back in a roped off area and then have them leave right after communion.
I am for the idea of limiting the consumption of christ to confirmed catholics, as well as genetically engineered flesh and blood of jesus. it seems to me to be the only way to go, especially with so many very very hungry catholics.
your thoughts?
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crenfro
Guest
Here’s something from the Catholic Catechism that may help explain things to you:
1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240
Many blessings to you.
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ufamtobie
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tweetymom
Guest
Good point and very much agreed to. Jesus sees us as believers!
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