Communion in Hand at the Last Supper?

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If you’re at an N.O. Mass, you can line up in front of the priest and motion that you want to receive on the tongue, while standing.
I’ve never had to telegraph my intention by any sort of *motion *-- Simply stand before the minister, make the sign of reverence, respond Amen, and (at your choice) either extend your tongue or your hands. The minister always seems to figure it out.

:twocents:
tee
 
I understand that in the TLM Communion was taken on the tongue, and in the New Mass Communion is generally taken in the hand. I got into thinking of the Last Supper. When the apostles took the Body, wouldn’t they have taken it in their hands?
The bible tells us exactly how it was distributed. He took bread into His hands, blessed and broke it, and *gave it *to His disciples. Whether one receives it in the hands or on the tongue is irrelevant. *It is still being given *to us regardless.
 
The bible tells us exactly how it was distributed… Whether one receives it in the hands or on the tongue is irrelevant.
So you’re saying how it is distributes is more relevant than how one receives it? :confused:

If this is the case, I don’t think the way communion is distributed (getting out of pews, bread lines, in a large church, etc.) comes anywhere close to the way Christ distributed it. So why the big deal about how we receive it?
 
So you’re saying how it is distributes is more relevant than how one receives it? :confused:

If this is the case, I don’t think the way communion is distributed (getting out of pews, bread lines, in a large church, etc.) comes anywhere close to the way Christ distributed it. So why the big deal about how we receive it?
:cool:
 
Satan would probably get quite a kick out of knowing that Catholics fought over things like this. Good thing he isn’t on the web. 😉

That said, here I go: 😃

The Church defines the limits, we exercise our options within those limits. That describes how I plan to behave. 👍

I agree that we do not have to exactly reproduce the conditions at the Last Supper. 🤷

Alan
 
When the apostles took the Body, wouldn’t they have taken it in their hands?
Yes. The Apostles had just been consecrated as priests, thus they had consecrated hands. Only consecrated hands are to touch holy things.

It’s just incredible that the Novus Ordo has obscured this fundamental truth.
 
I find this whole thing painfully ironic.

Novus Ordo Catholics always proclaim their “loyalty to the Vicar of Christ,” and convict the SSPX of disobedience. So, with Communion in the Hand, many of them tend to ignore the abuses that have resulted from it, the fact that it is a tolerated indult as a result of certain Catholics pretending that they are allowed to do it, and the unanimous teaching of the Church on the issue (Tradition). It has been a beautiful Tradition to receive the Sacred Host kneeling and on the tongue, in humble recognition of the incredible being they are about to consume. Receiving on the tongue reminds me of, after Christ’s Resurrection, Mary Magdalene wanting to touch Our Lord after recognizing his voice, and when he says not to Touch him. Christ was showing that, although Magdalene had a great love for Christ, He wanted to perfect that love by making it more supernatural, and not merely natural. Thus, is makes perfect sense to not touch Our Lord with our hands, and to simply receive him immediately into our mouths; this helps to make our love for Him more supernatural than simply natural (“I touched Jesus with my hands; therefore I feel closer to him,” is not a valid argument; it just reinforces this principle).

Yet, we not only have the Tradition of the Church, the point of reverence, and the point of sacriliges, but we also have Pope Benedict himself on our side. He has explicitly stated his preference for COTT and kneeling, and that he wants this to return. So, my question to all those “loyal” to the pope: Why do you not listen to him in this case? Since he is pressing so much for COTT, it’s obvious that he thinks it is more reverent to God Almighty, and if it is more reverent, you should do it. So what is your answer?

It’s ironic that when the pope is very traditional on a point (such as COTT), Novus Ordo Catholics (generally) don’t jump up and preach their “loyalty to the Vicar of Christ” and follow his example. Yet, if John Paul II allows scantilly-dressed Aztec women to dance during a Mass meant to canonize Juan Diego, it is perfectly fine and anyone who criticizes the pope is “schismatic” or “disrespectful.” Why is that?

I will follow the pope’s reverent advice and receive communion on the tongue while kneeling, instead of making up reasons for receiving in the hand.
 
Yes. The Apostles had just been consecrated as priests, thus they had consecrated hands. Only consecrated hands are to touch holy things.

It’s just incredible that the Novus Ordo has obscured this fundamental truth.
It’s been pointed out a zillion times, though since you’re new I’ll just tell you without further belaboring it, that deacons do not have consecrated hands, yet are ordinary ministers of the Eucharist.
 
… and so it goes …
Code:
:rolleyes:
Funny that when it comes to getting Communion, all of a sudden we don’t agree with the Church?

Alan
 
Yet, we not only have the Tradition of the Church, the point of reverence, and the point of sacriliges, but we also have Pope Benedict himself on our side. He has explicitly stated his preference for COTT and kneeling, and that he wants this to return. So, my question to all those “loyal” to the pope: Why do you not listen to him in this case? Since he is pressing so much for COTT, it’s obvious that he thinks it is more reverent to God Almighty, and if it is more reverent, you should do it. So what is your answer?

It’s ironic that when the pope is very traditional on a point (such as COTT), Novus Ordo Catholics (generally) don’t jump up and preach their “loyalty to the Vicar of Christ” and follow his example. Yet, if John Paul II allows scantilly-dressed Aztec women to dance during a Mass meant to canonize Juan Diego, it is perfectly fine and anyone who criticizes the pope is “schismatic” or “disrespectful.” Why is that?

I will follow the pope’s reverent advice and receive communion on the tongue while kneeling, instead of making up reasons for receiving in the hand.
Hmmm… so this issue is actually a commentary on JPII? Hmmm… I’ll keep that in mind when I’m trying to understand the logic involved.

Regarding Pope Benedict, if one way is right and the other way is wrong, why doesn’t he fix it? Doesn’t he have the authority to tell all bishops that CITH is no longer allowed? If he doesn’t do that, then it must not be that big of a deal. You can’t tell me that if this really grieved him it would be (at least officially) going on for more than one day after his proclamation.

The “masses” don’t normally do end-runs around their pastors and bishops to see if we’re doing anything in the church the way our Pope doesn’t like. For myself, I don’t see why I should have to. If the Pope wants it a certain way, then let him speak thus and let it be done. Otherwise, he’s just flappin’ in the breeze like the rest of us.

What’s the point of having a Pope if he can’t control the liturgy?

Alan
 
Regarding Pope Benedict, if one way is right and the other way is wrong, why doesn’t he fix it? Doesn’t he have the authority to tell all bishops that CITH is no longer allowed? If he doesn’t do that, then it must not be that big of a deal. You can’t tell me that if this really grieved him it would be (at least officially) going on for more than one day after his proclamation.
I wonder if he did rescind the indult, would Bishops obey? Would there be grumbling, a revolt or simple acceptance? I would like to get to the nub of the motivation for an RC diocese changing over to this practice in the first place. I haven’t yet read a good reason.
  • “There’s an indult” simply states that ‘It’s approved … because it’s approved’.
  • “The Coptics do it” doesn’t explain why an RC diocese should copy them.
  • “We did it … about 1000 years ago” doesn’t explain why it was dropped or why it should be reintroduced c. 1980
 
… the fact that it is a tolerated indult as a result of certain Catholics pretending that they are allowed to do it…
You say *tolerated indult *-- I say “indulged practice”.

*Painfully ironic *indeed. :rolleyes:

tee
 
Regarding Pope Benedict, if one way is right and the other way is wrong, why doesn’t he fix it?
Oh, please. If Pope Benedict XVI pulled the indult back and outlawed CITH there would be a schism of Biblical proportions. Once that horse left the barn it won’t be brought back by force. It will take a long time and the support of the Holy Spirit to get the individual to recognize the better way and start practicing it.

Here’s a question. Seeing as though CITH has been the de facto norm in most parts of the West at least, why is it still approved only by indult? Why doesn’t the Vatican make it the norm?
 
I wonder if he did rescind the indult, would Bishops obey? Would there be grumbling, a revolt or simple acceptance? I would like to get to the nub of the motivation for an RC diocese changing over to this practice in the first place. I haven’t yet read a good reason.
  • “There’s an indult” simply states that ‘It’s approved … because it’s approved’.
  • “The Coptics do it” doesn’t explain why an RC diocese should copy them.
  • “We did it … about 1000 years ago” doesn’t explain why it was dropped or why it should be reintroduced c. 1980
Actually, according to Cardinal Arinze, CITH approval is granted for a particular country if 2/3rds of the bishops there approve it. Seeing that some of the time, they need to go out and get the votes of retired or dying bishops’ approval to meet their 2/3rds, tells you the extent they will go to push their agenda. Technically, although some legal scholars disagree, they’re in obedience and the prospects do not look good for getting CITH overturned.
 
Here’s a question. Seeing as though CITH has been the de facto norm in most parts of the West at least, why is it still approved only by indult? Why doesn’t the Vatican make it the norm?
Good point.
 
Oh, please.
“Oh, please,” eh? I’ll give you “oh, please.” 😛

If we don’t think the Pope should change anything, then there should be no issue at all. :banghead:

To me, the fact that some would disobey a change in orders is a stupid and/or wimpy reason not to do it. If it is wrong, then let’s fix it and take our lumps. If it is not wrong, then why the fuss? :confused:

Since when does the Church weigh projected obedience of the flock as a more important measure of how we conduct our liturgy than what’s right or wrong? :whacky:

Either say Pope Benedict is in the wrong for not changing it, or accept that it is not wrong. If it is a matter of preference rather than a matter of right and wrong, then those who vociferously contest the current rules – and the Pope for that matter if he does it too – maybe should quit whining and quit fighting. :slapfight:

The only other possibility is that the Church cannot be counted on to do only what is right – and no, I don’t think that’s a good way to go here with the discussion. :nope:

Alan
 
“Oh, please,” eh? I’ll give you “oh, please.” 😛

If we don’t think the Pope should change anything, then there should be no issue at all. :banghead:

**To me, the fact that some would disobey a change in orders is a stupid and/or wimpy reason not to do it. If it is wrong, then let’s fix it and take our lumps. If it is not wrong, then why the fuss? :confused:

Since when does the Church weigh projected obedience of the flock as a more important measure of how we conduct our liturgy than what’s right or wrong?** :whacky:

Either say Pope Benedict is in the wrong for not changing it, or accept that it is not wrong. If it is a matter of preference rather than a matter of right and wrong, then those who vociferously contest the current rules – and the Pope for that matter if he does it too – maybe should quit whining and quit fighting. :slapfight:

The only other possibility is that the Church cannot be counted on to do only what is right – and no, I don’t think that’s a good way to go here with the discussion. :nope:

Alan
This is absolutely wrong. There is an important virtue that you are forgetting here: prudence. There are many, many cases throughout history where popes have practiced prudence in ceratin cases, where to have “done” something extreme (though 100% right) would have resulted in a greater evil. There were many times where they did do the extreme thing, and it resulted in a greater evil. Remember that Pius XII didn’t excommunicate Hitler, even though it was entirely justified to do so. Why? Because hundreds of thousands of more Jews, Catholics, etc., would have been murdered. This was prudence on his part.

Also remember that the “indult” for CITH was just that: an indult. It was to prevent a greater evil, not because it was desired. So Benedict XVI seems to be practicing great prudence here. He is not forcing it on the entire Church, but he is encouraging the rest of the faithful to practice COTT and kneeling by doing it at his masses. Should we not follow the Holy Father, and all those from earlier centuries?
 
This is absolutely wrong. There is an important virtue that you are forgetting here: prudence. There are many, many cases throughout history where popes have practiced prudence in ceratin cases, where to have “done” something extreme (though 100% right) would have resulted in a greater evil. There were many times where they did do the extreme thing, and it resulted in a greater evil. Remember that Pius XII didn’t excommunicate Hitler, even though it was entirely justified to do so. Why? Because hundreds of thousands of more Jews, Catholics, etc., would have been murdered. This was prudence on his part.

Also remember that the “indult” for CITH was just that: an indult. It was to prevent a greater evil, not because it was desired. So Benedict XVI seems to be practicing great prudence here. He is not forcing it on the entire Church, but he is encouraging the rest of the faithful to practice COTT and kneeling by doing it at his masses. Should we not follow the Holy Father, and all those from earlier centuries?
OK. So it’s evil to receive in the hand, but we tolerate it because it’s better to allow this evil than to chase away all the poor saps like me who usually get CITH these days. Yes I grew up COTT but when I had a choice I grudgingly tried CITH and found that I really liked it – not because opening my mouth is humbling, but so as to save the priest the close-up view of my tonsils and the chore of finagling the host onto my tongue without actually touching it.

I don’t see what the greater evil is in changing back over, if CITH really is wrong and is probably annoying to God. I sincerely doubt a significant number of practicing Catholics – those who care anyway, are going to leave. If they do, it’s not like they were murdered so it isn’t in the same league as the Hitler decision. Besides, it doesn’t degrade the Church to have a member who is evil, whereas from what y’all are saying CITH does degrade the Church.

I still say B16 must not be too concerned, or we would have heard about it in the rank-and-file by now. Most of us just study the Bible, go to Mass once or more a week, challenge ourselves to love better, but don’t go checking up on our bishops to determine whether they are in line with the Pope. That is their job. Not to say there is anything wrong with it, but you’re not going to get a significant change in practices without involving the bishops. Again, if he isn’t going to do anything about it, why is he even writing about it? Is this like he writes “wish lists” that the bishops are pleased to adopt or not?

Maybe I just don’t agree with whatever form of leadership he exercises. He comes into a divided house and takes a side, but not to the extent of mandating it. Seems to me if the decision were made not to change it for strategic reasons, good leaders would not feed the fight. This is a formula for having long lasting and bitter divisions.

Alan
 
Once again I encourage everyone to read the history on how and why CITH got into the GIRM. The pontiff at the time did actually rule against it but disobedient people forced him to acquiese. God allowed the Jews to divorce and also allows the Blessed Sacrament to be handed out. We are given free will so as to make choices pleasing to God.
 
Also remember that the “indult” for CITH was just that: an indult. It was to prevent a greater evil, not because it was desired. So Benedict XVI seems to be practicing great prudence here. He is not forcing it on the entire Church, but he is encouraging the rest of the faithful to practice COTT and kneeling by doing it at his masses. Should we not follow the Holy Father, and all those from earlier centuries?
There’s a small problem with this argument though. The Pope is not universally doing this at Papal Masses. He does it at his private Masses and yet has not said a public word, to my knowledge, encouraging COTT or discouraging CITH. Public Masses, especially such things as the Youth Day Masses, run the gamut as far as how communion is received.

As to your speculation–and nothing more–that this was a matter of “prudence” and allowing an “evil” to prevent a greater evil, I’d like to see a single shred of evidence supporting such an outrageous claim. Given the Church’s great willingness to take on very difficult issues in a hardline way because it is the right thing it is hard to to not snicker at such a concept. Yes,we’ll write *Humanae Vitae *and condemn ABC despite the overwhelming opposition, even from the group commissioned to study it, but we can’t stand up to CITH? We can oppose the use of condoms by couples where one partner is infected with HIV or AIDS but can’t stop CITH? We can write an entire document on liturgical abuses, Redemptionis Sacramentum, but fear to address CITH if it’s really an abuse?
"Ockham:
Oh, please. If Pope Benedict XVI pulled the indult back and outlawed CITH there would be a schism of Biblical proportions.
:rolleyes:
“Oh, please” is right. I don’t imagine for a moment that there would be much, if any, significant opposition if the Pope made such a ruling. The overwhelming majority of Catholics do what is the norm in the parish where they are attending Mass and will follow whatever the directives are. I find the argument that there would be some mass revolt over this entirely laughable.
…and the unanimous teaching of the Church on the issue (Tradition).
Oops, another argument with just a small problem or two. First, there is no such “unanimous teaching of the Church on the issue.” There are saints, Popes, theologians,etc on both sides of the issue throughout the history of the Church. Second, CITH has been the unabated norm of practice within at least some segments of the Catholic Church since the beginning. Third, this is no matter of Tradition. It is a matter of discipline, which the Church can–and has!–changed at will through the centuries. Trying to elevate this to any kind of doctrinal issue, or one of Tradition, is totally erroneous. At most it is a small “t” tradition within the Church.

The pure and simple fact of the matter is that this is a cultural norm. In the west, kneeling is generally perceived as a more “reverent” position, though even there that is not universally true. There are great segments of the world where that is not true and major segments who believe that the act or receiving communion is a joyous event that should not occur kneeling. The fact that COTT, kneeling, was the norm for part of the Church’s history could just as well follow the logic proposed as to why CITH hasn’t been done away with: that the Church had instituted it and changing such a thing would make people uncomfortable or possibly cause a revolt. The present backlash against allowing CITH certainly gives great credence to that idea.

In the end, there are valid reasons and ample history on both sides of the issue, though those reasons may not SEEM valid to those with violent opposition to the other “side”. The simple fact though is that both ARE within the options the Church allows and nobody has to justify to anyone else the reasons for their preference. Nor should anyone be making judgments about the devotion or piety of anyone else for their choices without risking being very much on the dangerous level of “Thank you Lord for not making me like those lesser Catholics.”

As another poster noted, Satan must love the division he is able to sow in creating disunity with such things. It sure makes an easy day’s work for him. A couple seconds of stirring the pot in the morning, then off to the golf course since that will keep them busy for hours!
 
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