Communion in the Hand

[Prodigal_Son1]

I used to feel the exact same way you do. Then, I get a glimpse of the past through the Tridentine Mass. I started to study it. I serve at one every week now. I still go to a Novus Ordo Mass with my wife. I have no quarrels with that Mass itself. I look at the Catholic attitude of the past. It has changed so drastically. You have to know the Tridentine Mass inimately to understand this. The Catholic attitude of the past that indured so long cannot be wrong. This is an attitude from the time of at least the Council of Trent, which interestingly enough, 90% of our modern catachism is quoting. You begin to wonder how, in the span of not even a decade the Catholic attitude toward the Blessed Sacrament can change so drastically after organically growing in one direction for centuries.

Luke

Hey Luke,

Do you think there was as much controversy in the Church, after 900 years of standing and receiving in the hand, when they changed it?

Cardinal Ratzinger

“But you will ask: is tolerance the proper answer here? Or is it not misplaced with respect to this most holy thing? Well, here again we know that until the nineth century Communion was received in the hand standing… the Church could not have possibly been celebrating the Eucharist unworthily for nine hundred years.”

I can only thank God my attitude toward the Blessed Sacrement remains intact, no matter which Mass I attend or which way I receive communion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you ,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Famule]

Hey Luke,

Do you think there was as much controversy in the Church, after 900 years of standing and receiving in the hand, when they changed it?

Cardinal Ratzinger

I can only thank God my attitude toward the Blessed Sacrement remains intact, no matter which Mass I attend or which way I receive communion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you ,
Prodigal Son1

That is a good thing. I just get so frustrated when I see people receiving Communion with this blank stare of boredom on their faces. At the Tridentine Mass, I see people in tears over the love when receiving, but at the Novus Ordo, most of the people who I see receiving in the hand obviously don’t care. Our priest ran one person down last Sunday for walking off with a host. I don’t know. Its just frustrating. I am not trying to judge people. It just hurts to see people take what I and we love so much and treat it with such disrespect.
It has been nice arguing with you! I am starting to feel like we are villagers standing around the milk wagon. LOL!

Luke

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, in the United States, under certain circumstances, there are two forms that are allowed.

My post did not deny that, in fact, I specifically said so.

But it would be erronous for someone to think that they have a Canonical RIGHT to recieve the Eucharist in the hand. It is an indult specifically granted to certain countries, under certain circumstances.

That is all I am saying.

---

Exactly.

 

[Famule]

So, whereabouts are you Prodigal Son1? I am in Wichita, KS. I haven’t heard of many parishes doing just an occasional EF Mass. We have a parish that shares with a latin community. We have our EF Mass every Sunday at 8am.

venite-missa-est.blogspot.com/
If you click on the link toward the top “St. Anthony Church” it will take you to some pictures that the local paper took.

Luke

 

[Spiller]

That is a good thing. I just get so frustrated when I see people receiving Communion with this blank stare of boredom on their faces. At the Tridentine Mass, I see people in tears over the love when receiving, but at the Novus Ordo, most of the people who I see receiving in the hand obviously don’t care. Our priest ran one person down last Sunday for walking off with a host. I don’t know. Its just frustrating. I am not trying to judge people. It just hurts to see people take what I and we love so much and treat it with such disrespect.
It has been nice arguing with you! I am starting to feel like we are villagers standing around the milk wagon. LOL!

Luke

I’m guessing less than 1% of all Masses in the USA are of the EF. Often times to get to one, a person has to plan – they are not offered nearly as regularly as the OF. The vast majority of the people you are describing are going to attend a Mass that fits their schedules and 99% of the time that’s going to be the OF.

It has nothing to do with the construct or the holiness of the EF. It has everything to do with the extremely wide availability of the OF and the fact that the last thing such people want to do is follow along in a missalette.

 

[Spiller]

I don’t really know why this would be such a big deal.

To me, it’s the kneeling that’s important, i.e. the submission, though I don’t have a problem with people standing.

They could probably just solve all the problems by universally declaring intinction.

Naw.

What about those who cannot consume gluten?

What about those who cannot consume alcohol?

 

[Famule]

I’m guessing less than 1% of all Masses in the USA are of the EF. Often times to get to one, a person has to plan – they are not offered nearly as regularly as the OF. The vast majority of the people you are describing are going to attend a Mass that fits their schedules and 99% of the time that’s going to be the OF.

It has nothing to do with the construct or the holiness of the EF. It has everything to do with the extremely wide availability of the OF and the fact that the last thing such people want to do is follow along in a missalette.

If that was meant to answer what you quoted, then you either missed my point or I missed your’s. That doesn’t have a connection to what I said there. I am not comparing Masses. I was talking about an observation and conveying why I am passionate about this.

Luke

 

[PrayforMallory]

Naw.

What about those who cannot consume gluten?

What about those who cannot consume alcohol?

I guess they can’t receive communion? Are there people who can’t receive even a miniscule amount of gluten or alcohol?

 

[Walking_Home]

Naw.

What about those who cannot consume gluten?

What about those who cannot consume alcohol?

---

It really is not such a problem.

For those who cannot receive gluten --a separate Chalice can be prepared–so they may receive the Precious Blood only.

For those who cannot consume alcohol ---- the Host is not dipped in the Precious Blood — therefore they receive the Host only.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So, whereabouts are you Prodigal Son1? I am in Wichita, KS. I haven’t heard of many parishes doing just an occasional EF Mass. We have a parish that shares with a latin community. We have our EF Mass every Sunday at 8am.

venite-missa-est.blogspot.com/
If you click on the link toward the top “St. Anthony Church” it will take you to some pictures that the local paper took.

Luke

We now interupt this thread to bring you a bit of history on Prodigal Son1’s hometown.

Apalachicola, Florida…you may have heard about Apalachicola from the weather channel. It seems they like to say it alot during hurricane season. Population is around 3500. Located about halfway between Panama City and Tallahassee. Our claim to fame is the ice machine was invented here (think of us everytime you have a glass of ice tea ) and we’re the oyster captial of the world. (I used to be an oysterman years ago, I was even the only 3 time oyster eating champion at the Florida Seafood Festival. I don’t usually tell folks that. My best record was 303 in 15 minutes. Seems to get alot of grins when I do tell it. ) The seafood industry still exists but it’s not our primary source of income anymore. Seems we now depend on the tourist industry.

St. George Island is about 14 miles away…11 or 12 miles of that is bridges. This time of the year, we have lots of visitors. A lot of the people attending Mass are on vacation. When the fall/winter comes, we have our share of snowbirds. Some of them visit so regularly though, we get to know them quite well.

We also get alot of visitors because of the building itself. Our Church was built in the 1800s. Our parish was established as a mission in 1833. The first Mass here was celebrated in 1527 by Bishop John Jaures while traveling with the Narvaez Expedition. St. Patricks Church was completed in 1851. (We don’t have a fancy website…I think it was put together shortly after the cornerstone was blessed. )

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Spiller]

---

It really is not such a problem.

For those who cannot receive gluten --a separate Chalice can be prepared–so they may receive the Precious Blood only.

For those who cannot consume alcohol ---- the Host is not dipped in the Precious Blood — therefore they receive the Host only.

That’s not universal intinction either…

 

[Spiller]

I guess they can’t receive communion? Are there people who can’t receive even a miniscule amount of gluten or alcohol?

Yeap.

For those who cannot tolerate gluten, they receive under the species of the Precious Blood – often from a specific chalice. There is the recent invention of the microscopically low gluten hosts which some such people might tolerate.

Those who cannot tolerate alcohol receive the host alone. Even priests who cannot tolerate alcohol are allowed to use mustum a virtually non-alcoholic wine.

 

[japhy]

We used to sing that hymn, O Lord I Am Not Worthy." Now we have a Eucharistic prayer where we thank the Lord for making us worthy to stand in his presence. I guess times and fashions change even in the Church.

Well, E.P. II is a revision of a sample anaphora from the 3rd century, and the original text thanks God “who has made us worthy to stand before you and to serve as your priests.” Given its context, it was a statement of the (newly ordained) bishop surrounded by his priests, speaking of the ordained ministers as a whole to God.

And we still say we’re not worthy when the priest shows us the Host right before Communion, although the prayers of the Mass have certainly been well-purged of the notion of not being worthy. A comparison of the Latin texts (never minding translation issues) of the Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form shows this.

I do know that Peter, James, and John did not seem so much in awe at the transfiguration that they were overwhelmed. Old Peter thought it would be nice to put up a few tents and hang out there for a while.

Perhaps you misunderstood his desire to build booths for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. It wasn’t a campground. It was a reference to the Feast of Booths (or Tabernacles). Peter was definitely in awe.

 

[japhy]

Has anybody thought they are sticking out their tongue to Jesus and the Minister? Doesn’t that sound and look disrespectful, as well as irreverent?

So if Jesus appears before us we should stick our tongue out at him?

No, clearly, if Jesus appears, we should stick our hands out and expect him to give us something. In all seriousness, can we please get beyond the “tongue sticking out” silliness?

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t really know why this would be such a big deal.

To me, it’s the kneeling that’s important, i.e. the submission, though I don’t have a problem with people standing.

They could probably just solve all the problems by universally declaring intinction.

Solve all the problems? If people would listen to those in authority with regards to their own behavior and mind their own business with regards to those over whom they have no authority, that would solve most of the problems.

From what I am told, it is tough to achieve that even in a monastery, so we’d better not hold our breath.

 

[AJV]

Well, E.P. II is a revision of a sample anaphora from the 3rd century, and the original text thanks God “who has made us worthy to stand before you and to serve as your priests.” Given its context, it was a statement of the (newly ordained) bishop surrounded by his priests, speaking of the ordained ministers as a whole to God.

That particular translation was the interpretation of Dom Botte. When translating the reconstruction, he came to ministrare and based on the Greek Apostolic Constitutions, the Testamentum Dominum and the Ethiopian version identified it with the Greek hierateuein. Thus he translated it as “serve you as [your] priests”

This is accepted by a number of scholars, especially given the context i.e. ordination of a bishop, as you pointed out. Some however disagree. One group accepts the rendering of Botte, that *ministrare *means hierateuein but rejects the idea that this applies only to priests. The other group insist that the meaning is closer to *diakonein *or leitourgein which merely means ‘serve’ or ‘minister’ .

This is reflected in the liturgical translations as well. Some versions (English, Spanish, French, German) version lean toward the second reasoning -closer towards *diakonein *or leitourgein and translate it as minister, serve, or similar. Other translations (Italian) lean towards the first i.e. hierateuein and translate it as “offer you priestly service” or similar. Of course, the Latin has the convenience of leaving it as ministrare.

 

[Our_Refuge]

But seriously, I personally see nothing wrong with taking communion in the hand. **In the Traditional Anglican church **

You know that Anglicans do not believe in the REAL PRESENCE, the Body, Soul and divinity of Christ present in the Eucharist. If you guys did you would have the Tabernacle to hold the Body and Blood of Christ.
Also your priests do not have the power to consecrate.

 

[AJV]

You know that Anglicans do not believe in the REAL PRESENCE, the Body, Soul and divinity of Christ present in the Eucharist. If you guys did you would have the Tabernacle to hold the Body and Blood of Christ.

I’ll defer to his response, but given his forumname and that he’s a *Traditional *Anglican, I’d say that it’s quite likely that he does have a tabernacle or some other place of reservation in his church, and does believe in the Real Presence (don’t know though whether he would say transubstantiation). Some Traditional Anglican churches use hybrid books like the American missal which borrow freely from the Traditional Roman Missal.

 

[nice2000]

I would love to see us return to the railing and kneel while we receive Communion. Of coures most new Churches aren’t equipped for that. And it would make Church a lot longer and heaven help us if Church were over an hour.

I would so much LOVE to see this too.

Especially kneeling and communion by mouth.
Even though I started out as a Protestant, I remember us kneeling for communion. I’m Catholic as of about 25 years ago…
I have never seen anyone kneel for communion nor been to a mass where everyone kneeled while accepting communion.

I just feel it is more respectful and loving to kneel and accept communion(Jesus precious body) by mouth for our Lord.

 

[AJV]

That particular translation was the interpretation of Dom Botte. When translating the reconstruction, he came to ministrare and based on the Greek Apostolic Constitutions, the Testamentum Dominum

Testamentum Domini