Communion in the Hand?

[rookieonedge]

Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, had to say about Michael Davies following his death in September 2004:

Cardinal Ratzinger: "I have been profoundly touched by the news of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him as a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially about the Sacred Liturgy. Even though he suffered from the Church in many ways in his time, he always truly remained a man of the Church. He knew that the Lord founded His Church on the rock of St. Peter and that the Faith can find its fullness and maturity only in union with the successor of St. Peter. Therefore we can be confident that the Lord opened wide for him the gates of heaven. We commend his soul to the Lord’s mercy.

Thank you.

Mr. Davies is very a very prolific writer penning books such as Liturgical Revolution 3 volumes,
The Order of Melchisedech, Communion Under Both Kinds, The Reign of Christ the King, The Roman Rite Destroyed, The Tridentine Mass: The Mass That Will Not Die, and that’s just a few from a long selection.

---

“Christus vincit; Christus regnat; Christus imperat.”

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)

 

[LilyM]

When we all die and face Jesus, will we meet him face to face and shake his hand as an equal, or will we be down on our knees in worship?

Chances are good we’ll be down on our knees. Kneeling is a form of adoration. How is receiving standing, in the hand, a form of adoration?

I rather imagine that like Thomas I’d touch Him to make sure it’s really Him, whether I was on my knees or not. And I hope He’d embrace me as the father does the Prodigal Son.

As for Jesus praying kneeling - He certainly didn’t kneel in front of Lazarus’ tomb for starters. There’s no record of Him kneeling while He prayed the Our Father either - neither did the sinful publican whose humble heart and repentant attitude justified him before God.

 

[diggerdomer]

How is receiving standing, in the hand, a form of adoration?

For one thing, it is of course purely speculation on what form our bodies will be in in heaven, and in that light whether postures such as standing and kneeling will have any relevance. We just don’t know. See 1 Cor 15

Leaving that aside for the moment, standing is just as appropriate a form of adoration.
e.g. Rev. 8:2

 

[marco1]

Here is a link that would help better my position… geocities.com/cath_apolo/Comion.htm

 

[diggerdomer]

Here is a link that would help better my position… geocities.com/cath_apolo/Comion.htm

I don’t give any credence or credibility to this link, just my opinion., It’s not authoritative and it’s not part of Church teaching.

 

[DonLeon]

Although I prefer receiving the host on the tongue while kneeling, what difference does it make really which way we receieve the host? As long as we receive it with grace, love, and respect for our Lord we are receiving it worthilly, whether kneeling or standing.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Ockham]

Here is a link that would help better my position… geocities.com/cath_apolo/Comion.htm

That’s an interesting essay that makes me wonder how CITH started in Europe during the sixties. Are there any definitive readings on this most recent trend?

“As we can see Hand Communion was Founded on disobedience to the Holy See and has Continued to be fostered by deceit.”

At the time Communion was received at the rail while kneeling and placed on the tongue. It seems hard to imagine parishioners suddenly walking up to the rail and sticking their hands out while standing. This leads me to believe CITH was initiated by a priest who probably gave instruction that ‘this is how we’re going to do it from now on’ or something like that.

 

[Ockham]

Although I prefer receiving the host on the tongue while kneeling, what difference does it make really which way we receieve the host? As long as we receive it with grace, love, and respect for our Lord we are receiving it worthilly, whether kneeling or standing.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The majority of Catholics don’t attend Mass regularly and of those who do the majority don’t contribute to this forum. With the exception of the trolls this leaves CAF as a place where actively interested Catholics come to discuss, debate, and learn about our faith.

I’m sure most of those who defend CITH here are very sincere in their reverence and respect for our Lord. What I’m concerned about is the effect CITH has on the passive or even apathetic Catholics. How we receive Communion is an external that leads to internal belief. The majority of Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation and with CITH, EMHC, clamshell architecture that places the tabernacle to the side or back, etc, can we blame them?

As the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ and the NO Mass have diluted our faith so to has the faith of the majority been diminished. It is a matter of cause and effect. If we restore the liturgy then we’ll restore our Church. We don’t have to wait nor expect the pope, bishops, or another council to practice sound doctrine. CITH started as an act of disobedience and can be corrected simply by practicing what the Church teaches in tradition and common sense.

"It must be remembered that Communion on the tongue is the law of the Church. Communion in the hand is an exception to the law (it is an “indult”) which is not commanded but only allowed if all the conditions outlined by the Vatican are present. If the conditions are not present then the permission is not granted and Communion on the tongue only is permitted.

The seven conditions are based on two principles as the official document points out. These two principles are not something that the Pope could change even if he wanted to because they are based on Divine Revelation itself." Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D.

geocities.com/cath_apolo/index.htm

 

[PaulinVA]

That’s an interesting essay that makes me wonder how CITH started in Europe during the sixties. Are there any definitive readings on this most recent trend?

“As we can see Hand Communion was Founded on disobedience to the Holy See and has Continued to be fostered by deceit.”

At the time Communion was received at the rail while kneeling and placed on the tongue. It seems hard to imagine parishioners suddenly walking up to the rail and sticking their hands out while standing. This leads me to believe CITH was initiated by a priest who probably gave instruction that ‘this is how we’re going to do it from now on’ or something like that.

I remember when the altar rail came down in our church. I think it coincided with the use of EMHC as well. What the motivation was, I don’t know.

Churches could have kept the railing, but didn’t. Reform, I guess.

I agree with you that we need to go back to Communion on the tongue. But, I also think it’s pointless if there are still EMHC.

 

[savienu]

I rather imagine that like Thomas I’d touch Him to make sure it’s really Him, whether I was on my knees or not. And I hope He’d embrace me as the father does the Prodigal Son.

As for Jesus praying kneeling - He certainly didn’t kneel in front of Lazarus’ tomb for starters. There’s no record of Him kneeling while He prayed the Our Father either - neither did the sinful publican whose humble heart and repentant attitude justified him before God.

When we die, there will be NO DOUBT that it is Jesus. And if you actually would meet him standing, well then, I guess I can’t say anything else.

 

[savienu]

For one thing, it is of course purely speculation on what form our bodies will be in in heaven, and in that light whether postures such as standing and kneeling will have any relevance. We just don’t know. See 1 Cor 15

Leaving that aside for the moment, standing is just as appropriate a form of adoration.
e.g. Rev. 8:2

Oh. Okay, so we are Seraphim now. The Seraphim, who stand at the thrown of God, who are the highest of all the angels, who are spotless and pure.

 

[jpy15026]

I rather imagine that like Thomas I’d touch Him to make sure it’s really Him, whether I was on my knees or not. And I hope He’d embrace me as the father does the Prodigal Son.

As for Jesus praying kneeling - He certainly didn’t kneel in front of Lazarus’ tomb for starters. There’s no record of Him kneeling while He prayed the Our Father either - neither did the sinful publican whose humble heart and repentant attitude justified him before God.

Luke 22:41-42 (RSV)

41 And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

 

[LilyM]

Luke 22:41-42 (RSV)
41 And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

Are you intending to make a point with this verse?

My point still stands (pardon the pun) - this one example of Him kneeling in prayer doesn’t in any way negate the other times when He either stood in prayer Himself or taught that it was acceptable to pray standing.

 

[jpy15026]

Peter and Paul
Acts 9:40 (RSV)
40 But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.

Acts 20:36 (RSV)
36 And when he had spoken thus, he knelt down and prayed with them all.

Acts 21:5 (RSV)
5 And when our days there were ended, we departed and went on our journey; and they all, with wives and children, brought us on our way till we were outside the city; and kneeling down on the beach we prayed and bade one another farewell.

Ephesians 3:14 (RSV)
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

 

[LilyM]

When we die, there will be NO DOUBT that it is Jesus. And if you actually would meet him standing, well then, I guess I can’t say anything else.

Jesus was with the Apostles for forty days - in exactly the same glorified body that ascended to heaven, since it could pass through walls and defy gravity. The same glorified body that we will see there.

Are you suggesting that they spent every one of those forty days on their knees, since His presence compels genuflection? Surely not, any more than WE spend our whole time in Church on our knees, even though He is always truly present there.

By the way - heavenly saints are every bit as spotless and pure as the angels, thanks to purgatory for some of them - nothing that is imperfect can be in His heaven, remember. And we are ABOVE the angels. We are in His image and likeness, alone and most privileged among all creatures. We, like they, will see Him face to face. But unlike them WE are His adopted children, brethren of Christ.

As our Eastern brothers say in their hymns to the Blessed Virgin ‘more glorious than the cherubim …’

 

[LilyM]

Peter and Paul
Acts 9:40 (RSV)
40 But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.

Acts 20:36 (RSV)
36 And when he had spoken thus, he knelt down and prayed with them all.

Acts 21:5 (RSV)
5 And when our days there were ended, we departed and went on our journey; and they all, with wives and children, brought us on our way till we were outside the city; and kneeling down on the beach we prayed and bade one another farewell.

Ephesians 3:14 (RSV)
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

Jesus gave us the example of the sinful publican - and clearly it was the publican’s humble and repentant heart, and not his bent knees (he stood to pray) that justified him. If you have a problem with standing to pray, take it up with Him, not me.

 

[jpy15026]

LilyM, No problem ,I am always impressed with your posts,keep them up,just pointing out that kneeling to pray is found also,and even Jesus knelt to pray to the Father.

 

[Ockham]

Jesus gave us the example of the sinful publican - and clearly it was the publican’s humble and repentant heart, and not his bent knees (he stood to pray) that justified him. If you have a problem with standing to pray, take it up with Him, not me.

So why did Jesus get on his knees to pray at all?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting you can only pray while on your knees. It is however a more reverent gesture and entirely fitting for receiving the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[savienu]

Jesus was with the Apostles for forty days - in exactly the same glorified body that ascended to heaven, since it could pass through walls and defy gravity. The same glorified body that we will see there.

Are you suggesting that they spent every one of those forty days on their knees, since His presence compels genuflection? Surely not, any more than WE spend our whole time in Church on our knees, even though He is always truly present there.

By the way - heavenly saints are every bit as spotless and pure as the angels, thanks to purgatory for some of them - nothing that is imperfect can be in His heaven, remember. And we are ABOVE the angels. We are in His image and likeness, alone and most privileged among all creatures. We, like they, will see Him face to face. But unlike them WE are His adopted children, brethren of Christ.

As our Eastern brothers say in their hymns to the Blessed Virgin ‘more glorious than the cherubim …’

We on EARTH are by NO MEANS above the angels. Last I checked, we are sinful, fallen human beings who do NOT have the beatific vision. To imply that we are on equal footing with the Seraphim, the highest choir of angels, is insulting.

 

[Layman]

“My point still stands (pardon the pun) - this one example of Him kneeling in prayer doesn’t in any way negate the other times when He either stood in prayer Himself or taught that it was acceptable to pray standing.”

I deduce from this that we’re on a par with Jesus himself, now? Standing up when addressing God? Never mind that when he did this he was in a public place, and teaching or performing miracles. Kneeling down in front of his audience then would have placed him in an inferior position, symbolically, to them.

At Lazarus’ tomb he was giving a command, in a public place, by his authority, which you do standing up. Symbolism, see?

What Jesus himself did in the synagogue, as a member of the congregation, when praying to our Father, would be a better pointer.

What you are proposing is tending towards make our form of worship meaningless. Why bother with any ritual if externals don’t matter? Stay at home and worship God in your bathrobe.