Communion misinterpreted?

[katillac1]

I was talking with my boyfriend the other day who is Baptist. We often have discussions about religion and this time we were talking about communion. He said he doesn’t believe in the eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ because Catholics interpreted early scripture wrong. We take it as “this IS my body…” He says the ealy original scripture had it as “this is a SYMBOL of my body…”
I’m not quite sure what he is referring to. I would ask him myself but he’s away and communication is scarce, and am very curious. Does anyone know what early scripture or translation he was referring to? I think he meant the one that came before Greek, but my biblical knowledge as far as the order of languages and translations is lacking. I’m working on it! I can’t answer him with scripture because the translation of it is the argument. Any insight from both sides would be helpful!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I was talking with my boyfriend the other day who is Baptist. We often have discussions about religion and this time we were talking about communion. He said he doesn’t believe in the eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ because Catholics interpreted early scripture wrong. We take it as “this IS my body…” He says the ealy original scripture had it as “this is a SYMBOL of my body…”
I’m not quite sure what he is referring to. I would ask him myself but he’s away and communication is scarce, and am very curious. Does anyone know what early scripture or translation he was referring to? I think he meant the one that came before Greek, but my biblical knowledge as far as the order of languages and translations is lacking. I’m working on it! I can’t answer him with scripture because the translation of it is the argument. Any insight from both sides would be helpful!

He is wrong.

Here’s a great quote from Martin Luther that you should show him(you should have him read it first then tell him who wrote it! )

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

 

[katillac1]

I can show him that quote, and I guarantee you he will say even Martin Luther thought that because there was a misinterpretatin early on. The Bible quote that has been used for centuries is in fact, misquoted. I’m not arguing with you, but I am going to argue like he would so I can better find an argument against his views. I don’t need stong quotes from later on, I simply am wondering what original text he is arguing for.
With that said, thank you for your reply and that is a good quote!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I can show him that quote, and I guarantee you he will say even Martin Luther thought that because there was a misinterpretatin early on. The Bible quote that has been used for centuries is in fact, misquoted. I’m not arguing with you, but I am going to argue like he would so I can better find an argument against his views. I don’t need stong quotes from later on, I simply am wondering what original text he is arguing for.
With that said, thank you for your reply and that is a good quote!

Have you checked biblegateway.com?

You can read multiple translations very easily. It might help.

good luck!

 

[katillac1]

I haven’t heard of that site before- Thanks!

 

[JonNC]

He is wrong.

Here’s a great quote from Martin Luther that you should show him(you should have him read it first then tell him who wrote it! )

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

Since her boyfriend is Baptist, there is a chance he won’t subscribe to anything Luther. That said, anything is worth a try, and I am particularly grateful that you, as a Catholic, would use his quote in such a positive way.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[MarcoPolo]

Matthew 26:26 …this is my body…
The Greek is "τουτο εστιν το σωμα μου". Literally “this is the body mine.”

Mark 14:22 …this is my body…
Greek is same as Matthew 26:26

Luke 22:19 …this is my body…
Greek is same as Mark 14:22 and Matthew 26:26

Click the links above for the Greek and the definitions of each word.

Your boyfriend is factually mistaken about the word “symbol” anywhere in there.

God bless!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Since her boyfriend is Baptist, there is a chance he won’t subscribe to anything Luther. That said, anything is worth a try, and I am particularly grateful that you, as a Catholic, would use his quote in such a positive way.

Thanks,
Jon

Luther probably had more in common with modern Catholics than modern Baptists.

I grew up as a baptist, then a non denom charismatic, then we finally settled in a rural Methodist church.

I had no idea what Luther believed, but I always assumed it was almost exactly what I believed!

 

[Godfollower]

Ask him his source; then (if he has one) track it down. You won’t find any such source, because it isn’t true. I’m not saying your boyfriend is lying; he was probably misled himself. Every source we have, both Catholic and non-Catholic, has “This is my body,” not “This is a symbol of my body.”

There are Protestant books and websites that contend otherwise, but so far as I can tell it’s always based on other Protestant books and websites; they never show the actual words that they claim translate to “This is a symbol of my body.”

Which should tell you something. If he’s so sure the original text used the word “symbol,” why does his own Bible just say “This is my body”? Wouldn’t the publishers of his Baptist Bible put in the translation from the correct language? Answer: No, because there is absolutely no documentation whatsoever of any source saying “is a symbol” rather than “is.” It simply isn’t true.

I recommend that you invest in a copy of by Karl Keating.Catholicism and Fundamentalism: the Attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” You might find it useful for future questions by your boyfriend.

 

[katillac1]

I just looked at that book on Amazon and it looked interesting. I think I’m headed to the library after work! I’ve found lots of good stuff.

 

[Lancer]

Ask your boyfriend if he believes 1 Tim 3: 15:1 Timothy 3:10-15 (New King James Version)

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

RSV-Catholic Edition reads…"….the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Then ask him if he believes** what Jesus said** in Luke 10:16:
Luke 10:16 (New King James Version)

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy Two Disciples

16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Point: the Catholic Church which gave his Baptist Church the bible…the same Catholic Church which is the* pillar and ground of truth*…says that the translation is correct (this is my body)…then who is he to say otherwise. How does he interpret Luke 10:16…Jesus’ direct words…if your boyfriend does not accept what his Church says…then he has one of three problems:1. Invincible Ignorance;
2. Invincible Pride;
3. Invincible Will to Disbelieve.
I put my money on #2…why?..because I too suffer from the same disease on other issues…there is nothing as sweet as basing your definition of truth on your own pride in yourself and your own independence. The only problem with using my pride to define truth…is that truth is not something…it is someone…a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ (JP-II & B-XVI remind us that Jesus said this himself):

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

For some reason…I don’t think my pride-based definition of truth…is going to change the Truth himself or what he said. He gives me complete freedom to do so (define truth with my pride), but what he will not give me is complete freedom to do is to escape the consequences of my decision and action. Its kind of like me saying I don’t believe in gravity…so I decide to get on the top of a building and jump off…every right to think that…to do that…but not the right to escape the consequences of incorrectly defining the truth of gravity…and thus breaking my body, face and limbs when the ground and my body meet…rather violently.

Your boyfriend sounds like a “job for the Holy Spirit”…just remind (warn) him that the Holy Spirit is a “whirlwind of fire” and he only has two places he ever carries people: one is Cavalry (in this life) and the other is Heaven (for the next life)…so if we need his urgent care here on earth in this life…stand by for an intimate…up close…and personal encounter in a whirlwind of fire on Calvary with the Cross of Christ.

Pax Christi

 

[katillac1]

I agree, those are some good verses to bring to his attention. I can tell you he will have a problem with John though. That verse one of the exact reasons he doesn’t believe in Catholicism.

“…no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

He reads that as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ only. Sacraments and “man-made” rules and being Catholic only hinders and takes away from the sacredness of the relationship with Jesus. He see it as going through men. Which to him, is completely immoral.
I believe that is his hangup. It is not pride, will to disbelieve, or ignorance, but he truly believes that he would be going against God by believing the Catholic Church.
Now, we haven’t discussed the previous verses you mentioned so when I get to talk to him about this topic again I will ask him what the staunch bible Baptists think about those. He is so sola scriptura that he sometimes even has a problem with scripture as it is now, reverting to original texts to try and get the “real” meaning- that’s where my original question came up.

Thanks for the advice

 

[emarc]

I agree, those are some good verses to bring to his attention. I can tell you he will have a problem with John though. That verse one of the exact reasons he doesn’t believe in Catholicism.

“…no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

He reads that as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ only. Sacraments and “man-made” rules and being Catholic only hinders and takes away from the sacredness of the relationship with Jesus. He see it as going through men. Which to him, is completely immoral.
I believe that is his hangup. It is not pride, will to disbelieve, or ignorance, but he truly believes that he would be going against God by believing the Catholic Church.
Now, we haven’t discussed the previous verses you mentioned so when I get to talk to him about this topic again I will ask him what the staunch bible Baptists think about those. He is so sola scriptura that he sometimes even has a problem with scripture as it is now, reverting to original texts to try and get the “real” meaning- that’s where my original question came up.

Thanks for the advice

hi - bf is confused if he has a problem trusting his own Bible version. KJV John 6 never mention that Jesus was speaking symbolically. Jesus himself allowed his disciples to depart after he repeated no less than 4 times that “this is his body” because he knew they understood correctly. i’d suggest you get the coversion tape of Scott Hahn and let him hear it. the book by joan c cruz, “Eucharistic Miracles” documented a number of miracles w/c are still existing today. things that are impossible with us men are possible with God. and we have to walk by faith, not by sight. we’ll pray for him.
God bless.

 

[Godfollower]

“…no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

He reads that as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ only.

But “He that receiveth you [the Apostles], receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.” Matthew 10:40.

The Catholic Church has never contended that it’s an alternative route to God around Jesus; rather, Jesus founded the Church to help people get to Him.

Scripture teaches us (so does Tradition, but your boyfriend won’t accept that) that Jesus founded the Church on Peter; gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins; and began the Apostolic Succession. Simple history shows us that the Apostolic Succession continues today in the persons of the bishops of the Catholic Church.

Anyway, his interpretation of that verse is clearly wrong. Salvation is clearly not based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ only. Jesus ordered us to work together.

Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

Matthew 18:19-22.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree, those are some good verses to bring to his attention. I can tell you he will have a problem with John though. That verse one of the exact reasons he doesn’t believe in Catholicism.

“…no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

He reads that as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ only. Sacraments and “man-made” rules and being Catholic only hinders and takes away from the sacredness of the relationship with Jesus. He see it as going through men. Which to him, is completely immoral.
I believe that is his hangup. It is not pride, will to disbelieve, or ignorance, but he truly believes that he would be going against God by believing the Catholic Church.
Now, we haven’t discussed the previous verses you mentioned so when I get to talk to him about this topic again I will ask him what the staunch bible Baptists think about those. He is so sola scriptura that he sometimes even has a problem with scripture as it is now, reverting to original texts to try and get the “real” meaning- that’s where my original question came up.

Thanks for the advice

The key is to agree that only by Christ can we be saved. It is simply that your boyfriend does not believe the sacraments are a means by which to receive Jesus. Of course Paul says otherwise in 1 Cor 11. And the Spirit is imparted in baptism, also via the laying of hands during Holy Orders, etc… This is all Scriptural. So he poses a false dichotomy when he says Jesus vs. sacraments, when the sacraments give us Jesus!

 

[O.S.Luke]

The key is to agree that only by Christ can we be saved. It is simply that your boyfriend does not believe the sacraments are a means by which to receive Jesus. Of course Paul says otherwise in 1 Cor 11. And the Spirit is imparted in baptism, also via the laying of hands during Holy Orders, etc… This is all Scriptural. So he poses a false dichotomy when he says Jesus vs. sacraments, when the sacraments give us Jesus!

Most Baptist traditions see baptism as an ordinance, not a sacrament - certainly not as a means to impart grace.

 

[dixibehr]

He says the ealy original scripture had it as “this is a SYMBOL of my body…” <<

Your boyfriend is either lying, or more likely, has been lied to and is repeating the disinformation he was given.

NO MS of the Greek NT or any early version (Latin, Syriac, etc) says “symbol of my body”.

Furthermore, the very Greek word “symbolos” means a bringing together of two realities.

In Greek thought the symbol was not an empty sign, but was itself the thing symbolized.

 

[PJM]

=katillac1;5047291]I was talking with my boyfriend the other day who is Baptist. We often have discussions about religion and this time we were talking about communion. He said he doesn’t believe in the eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ because Catholics interpreted early scripture wrong. We take it as “this IS my body…” He says the ealy original scripture had it as “this is a SYMBOL of my body…”
I’m not quite sure what he is referring to. I would ask him myself but he’s away and communication is scarce, and am very curious. Does anyone know what early scripture or translation he was referring to? I think he meant the one that came before Greek, but my biblical knowledge as far as the order of languages and translations is lacking. I’m working on it! I can’t answer him with scripture because the translation of it is the argument. Any insight from both sides would be helpful!

Friend,

Your boyfriend is only repeating what he has been taught. But he is wrong!

Togeather read the following bible verses:

Mt.26: 26-28, 1 Cor. 11: 23-26, Lk. 22:19-21, and Mk. 14: 22-24

By the way the KJV Bible says the same thing!

1 Cor. 11: "27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. "

Paul could not say this about “supper!” No He knew and taught what we believe as true. **It is Jesus, it IS JESUS!

*John 6: " 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me"

If you have time read all of John chapter 6. It’s awesome!

Love and prayers,

 

[MarcoPolo]

Most Baptist traditions see baptism as an ordinance, not a sacrament - certainly not as a means to impart grace.

Even so, I encourage katillac to share her faith, and explain why she does not see Jesus vs. sacraments as he does.

 

[sixofseven]

katillac1,
I go through the exact same conversations with my fiance. I could have written your post!

The thing to remember is that all Christians believed in the Real Presence - the notion that is it a symbol is only a few hundred years old. Furthermore, if it is only a symbol why did Jesus let people walk away from him - he didn’t run after them and say ‘ok, you don’t get it, I don’t mean ‘eat me’, I just mean to symbolically represent my body’ - no, Jesus only speaks the Truth and he reaffirms this several times in John 6 alone. People walked away because the notion was hard to believe - and it IS hard to believe - so remember to be patient with your boyfriend.

I have come to see that there are non-Catholics out there (not all non-Catholics, please don’t jump down my throat!) who just don’t understand that as Christ gave His life for us, we must also give Him ours. The submission, and child-like innonence of faith is very hard for some people to accept, as they have been brought up to decide for themselves, and basically ‘go it alone’, every man for himself. Catholics have so much support for their faith - the Bible, the Church, the Saints, the Catechism, Our Lady, the Rosary…the list goes on and on.

Also point this out to your boyfriend - God has always given us a human representative (Noah, Moses, Abraham…) and it doesn’t stop at Jesus, He commissioned the priesthood.

I too recommend reading Scott Hahn.

Most of all, pray for your boyfriend.