Communion of Children

[QuoVado]

Dear Ms Butterfly,

If this is beautiful reply it is also somewhat sad and biased. Let me tell you how, by changing positions:

Generally speaking for Catholic “Eastern” and "Orthodox"meaning only two things backwards and heretical. Moreover, Catolics speak Polish (or else Italian, French) and Polish people always hate Russians and mock Ukrainians. I would have to speak their language to be of their faith (oddly, Ms Butterfly I can also speak Polish, English, French and German but will not join their faith). Therefore, one cannot be Russian or Ukrainian and be Catolic.

Only 1 person, the bishop of Rome is in charge of everything. If there is sexual misconduct by homosexual priests in Catolic church it is ignored unless Pope finally comes out against it. Laity in Catolic church cannot take moral or social actions without consulting to and approval of such Bishop.

I hope you see the bias of this poor statement, now - if I can learn your language - you could learn Ukrainian and Russian or Greek. Yes, most books on Orthodoxy are in those languages, because that is where most Orthodox live. But one can practice Orthodox faith in Francia, Brazilia, Japon, Indonesia, anywhere. First step is only to wake up and begin to pray Morning Rule.

I apologize if I have given offense, Volodymyr, because I know that, depending on what part of Ukraine you are from, you are saddled with your own difficulties in the matter of Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism. But why should I have to learn Russian or Greek (I speak both, btw) in order to practice my faith in my own country? And why should I have to dig through a mountain of alien ethnic culture and outrageously difficult language and obscure history, and make my children do the same, just so we can get to Jesus? I am sorry, my brother, but Orthodoxy in America has made an idol of ethnicity, and we’ve mistaken it for Holy Tradition. :nope: And the folks that we seem to attract from Catholicism and Protestantism seem to be of the sort who could just as easily convert to Zen, just as long as the religion they practice expresses their underlying dislike for their native culture, which is really just another form of self-hatred (a very American illness), or their unwillingness to submit to ecclesiastical authority (another very American illness). In this case it’s not really about Jesus or faith, is it? It’s just a subtle form of delusion.

I converted into the Orthodox faith 15 years ago from Baptist. I value what the Church has taught me about sacramental life and the communion of the Saints, and I deeply revere her witness in the face of European Communism and radical Islam. But I’m beginning to see that the Orthodox Church doesn’t really have much of an apostolic vision for my own people (Americans), and I’d rather that I and my family be able to worship in a Church that boldly stands for something in MY homeland other than quaint ethnic customs and good food. If and when I make the switch, I will take it as a final trip home by way of Byzantium and I will thank God for it, and I will bear no grudges.

Peace

 

[Volodymyr]

I (Quo Vado) apologize if I have given offense, Volodymyr/ I’d rather that I and my family be able to worship in a Church that boldly stands for something in MY homeland other than quaint ethnic customs and good food. If and when I make the switch, I will take it as a final trip home by way of Byzantium and I will thank God for it, and I will bear no grudges.

Peace

Мир Вам, брат. и храни Вас Господь!

You are in Western world where a name Quo Vado and a desire for processus show a certain affinity more for Latin than for Slavonic. I am not offended and hope not to give offense. I cannot but be aware that many people want now to be Orthodox in Ukraina and Rosia in order to show that they are Ukrainian or Rusian. Of course your people, your country and your faith must all be together or you will be unhappy. But try not to be critical of people who convert to Orthodox, believing that they could also believe Zen Budism. Maybe they could - but God is merciful and led them to the Holy Church. I have known many very holy Catolics from days in Red Army - Lithuanian priests who helped very much to keep faith alive in Soviet days. I am grateful to them and to wonderful Natalia Leonidovna Trauberg who always had a good view of Catolics and translated so many works of English writers such as G K Chesterton into Russian. She helped all to see face of Western church better. May Lord give her rest; she died just april this year. She was often criticzed by too-ethnic Orthodox for having open views of Catolics. I am trying to be like her.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Brendan]

Ah, well, I live in Pittsburgh, PA, great center of all things Catholic and Orthodox. If you’re looking for it we’ve got it. Byzantine Rite, Latin Rite (including a huge Latin Mass Community), Polish National Church. Oh, yes, we’ve got lot’s of Arab Christians here, too – Maronites, Antiochian Orthodox, Coptic, etc. On last count I think I tallied up six different Orthodox Episcopal Sees here , both old and new calendar. In the summertime it’s “Battle of the Ethnic Food Festivals”, the city literally reeks of cabbage, tzouvlaki and kibbeh, and we keep the neighborhoods up all night with polkas and Greek dancing. LOL It’s a total zoo! Fun, though.

I’m in the Orthodox Church in America (OCA). I would assume I would switch to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Archeparchy. My kids are a very precocious 2 and 5.

I am in a similar situation here in metro Detroit. Within 5 miles of my house are 4 Latin Parishes, 2 Chaldean, 1 Byzantine, 4 Orthodox (Greek, Antiochian, Serbian and Macedonian) and one Coptic.

And you are quite correct, the parish festivals make for wonderful summer treats

 

[QuoVado]

Мир Вам, брат. и храни Вас Господь!

Try not to be critical of people who convert to Orthodox, believing that they could also believe Zen Budism. Maybe they could - but God is merciful and led them to the Holy Church.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_eno3JxK6M1U/Sdn-fZfkvCI/AAAAAAAAAJs/cIXSJFLZ6bM/nlt6.jpg

I have no doubt and meant to give no judgment here. I think we might be hitting a language barrier. What I mean is, often our Orthodox converts are so hostile to their own culture that they forget that the purpose of the Church is evangelism, not to help them escape who they are. We in America are too easily enamored with the “exotic” because we are so disgusted with ourselves that we can’t believe that our own heritage might also be capable of containing Christ. Self-hatred runs deep in the culture here, because we have a hard time seeing things bigger than ourselves. This is my view anyway.

My own family heritage bridges east and west. My mother’s family is Russian, my father’s is Irish. I grew up with traditions from both, including the Russian language, not an unusual situation in the USA. I have been to your country several times, btw, to Kiev and L’viv, and the presence of the Christian Faith there is absolutely beautiful.

 

[QuoVado]

I am in a similar situation here in metro Detroit. Within 5 miles of my house are 4 Latin Parishes, 2 Chaldean, 1 Byzantine, 4 Orthodox (Greek, Antiochian, Serbian and Macedonian) and one Coptic.

And you are quite correct, the parish festivals make for wonderful summer treats

Ah, Detroit, another great center of both faiths. We Orthodox were joking here during the Stanley Cup that we could help the Pens by serving a Liturgy at center ice, then we dismissed the idea because we realized that Detroit is every bit as Orthodox. Sorry 'bout how that turned out, btw. Not really. It was the curse of Hossa.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I have no doubt and meant to give no judgment here. I think we might be hitting a language barrier. What I mean is, often our Orthodox converts are so hostile to their own culture that they forget that the purpose of the Church is evangelism, not to help them escape who they are. We in America are too easily enamored with the “exotic” because we are so disgusted with ourselves that we can’t believe that our own heritage might also be capable of containing Christ. Self-hatred runs deep in the culture here, because we have a hard time seeing things bigger than ourselves. This is my view anyway.

Wow, you just discribed me ! lol! I do LOVE LOVE LOVE all things middle eastern and greek. And i am absolutely head over heals in love with Egypt (have been since I was little) and am convinced that I have ancient ancesters that came from Egypt .
But where I differ here is that although I love a culture or cultures which I have little to no connection with, I also do love parts of my own ancestry…I love the fact that I have some Irish in me. My son was born on St. Patrick’s day and that means lots to me. I love the Bavarian German in me…in fact I owe my faith to my German and Irish ancestry for that is where it originated for my family. I love the Latin and “Roman’” of the West. Even if I do get to switch churches, I would never give up all of the customs of the West. I am drawn to the theology and practice of the East but I love things about the West too. I wish I could technically be enrolled in the Latin and Ukrainian church!

i love your take on this though:thumbsup:

 

[Harpazo]

I apologize if I have given offense, Volodymyr, because I know that, depending on what part of Ukraine you are from, you are saddled with your own difficulties in the matter of Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism. But why should I have to learn Russian or Greek (I speak both, btw) in order to practice my faith in my own country? And why should I have to dig through a mountain of alien ethnic culture and outrageously difficult language and obscure history, and make my children do the same, just so we can get to Jesus? I am sorry, my brother, but Orthodoxy in America has made an idol of ethnicity, and we’ve mistaken it for Holy Tradition. :nope: And the folks that we seem to attract from Catholicism and Protestantism seem to be of the sort who could just as easily convert to Zen, just as long as the religion they practice expresses their underlying dislike for their native culture, which is really just another form of self-hatred (a very American illness), or their unwillingness to submit to ecclesiastical authority (another very American illness). In this case it’s not really about Jesus or faith, is it? It’s just a subtle form of delusion.

I converted into the Orthodox faith 15 years ago from Baptist. I value what the Church has taught me about sacramental life and the communion of the Saints, and I deeply revere her witness in the face of European Communism and radical Islam. But I’m beginning to see that the Orthodox Church doesn’t really have much of an apostolic vision for my own people (Americans), and I’d rather that I and my family be able to worship in a Church that boldly stands for something in MY homeland other than quaint ethnic customs and good food. If and when I make the switch, I will take it as a final trip home by way of Byzantium and I will thank God for it, and I will bear no grudges.

Peace

I want to be honest, reading posts like this make my stomach churn. You sound as if you are leaving Orthodoxy not because of theology, but because of the behavior of other people. If you believe in papal infallibility and papal supremacy, then be a Roman Catholic. Do you understand the history of why we are in the current canonical mess? Obviously it is not ideal, but the faith is not altered by it. Have you heard His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah’s speeches? Have you heard of the Chambesy meetings and the pre-conciliar meetings? You do know that the Orthodox Church is planning a council to address the problem with jurisdictionalism in America, right?

It’s rather ironic, actually. You say you want to leave Orthodoxy because it has not “apostolic vision for America” (whatever that means), yet you are ready to embrace different ethnic customs in another church. I don’t mean to question your sincerity, but the fact that you are asking if your children can be communed in a Roman church makes me think that this is not a conversion based on a search for truth, but convenience. If you really believe in Roman Catholic doctrines, then be Roman Catholic and accept ALL of them regardless of whether they allow your children to receive the Eucharist.

Do you listen to Ancient Faith Radio? There are such Apostolic visions for America, that you would have your mind blown away. I fail to see how there aren’t any. I’m sorry if your parish is a bad example of ethnicity running the parish, but it is most certainly not the norm. If you think you won’t find that in Catholicism, you are mistaken.

Anyway, I pray that you will reconsider and really pray hard about it and make decision based on the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[QuoVado]

I want to be honest, reading posts like this make my stomach churn. You sound as if you are leaving Orthodoxy not because of theology, but because of the behavior of other people. If you believe in papal infallibility and papal supremacy, then be a Roman Catholic. Do you understand the history of why we are in the current canonical mess? Obviously it is not ideal, but the faith is not altered by it. Have you heard His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah’s speeches? Have you heard of the Chambesy meetings and the pre-conciliar meetings? You do know that the Orthodox Church is planning a council to address the problem with jurisdictionalism in America, right?

It’s rather ironic, actually. You say you want to leave Orthodoxy because it has not “apostolic vision for America” (whatever that means), yet you are ready to embrace different ethnic customs in another church. I don’t mean to question your sincerity, but the fact that you are asking if your children can be communed in a Roman church makes me think that this is not a conversion based on a search for truth, but convenience. If you really believe in Roman Catholic doctrines, then be Roman Catholic and accept ALL of them regardless of whether they allow your children to receive the Eucharist.

Do you listen to Ancient Faith Radio? There are such Apostolic visions for America, that you would have your mind blown away. I fail to see how there aren’t any. I’m sorry if your parish is a bad example of ethnicity running the parish, but it is most certainly not the norm. If you think you won’t find that in Catholicism, you are mistaken.

Anyway, I pray that you will reconsider and really pray hard about it and make decision based on the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

Did you read my original post? And do you have children? Based on what you’ve said here I’d say no on both counts. My inquiry here was specifically out of concern not to cause confusion or sorrow to my children. I only started talking about some of my reasons for looking to switch because someone asked.

They are not, btw, my principal reasons. I don’t want to talk about those in a public forum, okay? I’ll just say that my family has been caught directly in the vortex of scandal that’s bubbling under the surface in the the North American Church, and I need to find a place for us to worship Christ that is far away from it.

If you can’t take hearing the EOC criticized then don’t log on to CA. Otherwise take an antacid.

 

[Harpazo]

Did you read my original post? And do you have children? Based on what you’ve said here I’d say no on both counts. My inquiry here was specifically out of concern not to cause confusion or sorrow to my children. I only started talking about some of my reasons for looking to switch because someone asked.

I read your OP, and no, I do not have children.

They are not, btw, my principal reasons. I don’t want to talk about those in a public forum, okay? I’ll just say that my family has been caught directly in the vortex of scandal that’s bubbling under the surface in the the North American Church, and I need to find a place for us to worship Christ that is far away from it.

I’m sorry that you are caught up in scandal. I truly am. But leaving the Holy Orthodox Church over it makes little sense to me. If you were switching parishes, then I would understand completely. If the Orthodox Church taught that whatever these scandals were are a part of the faith, then I would understand. Is it really enough to abandon the faith?

But if it is not theological, then you are leaving out of convenience and I find that to be sad. I would say the same exact thing if a Catholic were to become Orthodox because of scandals in their Church. You will find that the grass is not greener on the other said. I myself was a Protestant and converted to Catholicism 3 years ago and am now preparing for baptism in the Orthodox Church.

If you can’t take hearing the EOC criticized then don’t log on to CA. Otherwise take an antacid.

I am aware that the Holy Orthodox Church is composed of sinners. I am a sinner myself, but the people who do not act in accordance with their faith and the grace that Christ gives us have nothing to do with the theology of the Holy Orthodox Church. That should be the reason you are Orthodox: because of what it teaches, not the holiness (or lack thereof) of certain members. I am a big boy and can take criticism of my Church. None of us are without fault.

As I said before, if you believe in the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, then be Roman Catholic because you cannot be Orthodox while believing in Roman Catholic post-schism dogmas. It would be spiritual schizophrenia to do so (believe me, I’ve tried ).

I will end this conversation here and I will pray for you, your family, your parish and your bishop. May the Lord be with you.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jimmy]

Ah, well, I live in Pittsburgh, PA, great center of all things Catholic and Orthodox. If you’re looking for it we’ve got it. Byzantine Rite, Latin Rite (including a huge Latin Mass Community), Polish National Church. Oh, yes, we’ve got lot’s of Arab Christians here, too – Maronites, Antiochian Orthodox, Coptic, etc. On last count I think I tallied up six different Orthodox Episcopal Sees here , both old and new calendar. In the summertime it’s “Battle of the Ethnic Food Festivals”, the city literally reeks of cabbage, tzouvlaki and kibbeh, and we keep the neighborhoods up all night with polkas and Greek dancing. LOL It’s a total zoo! Fun, though.

I’m in the Orthodox Church in America (OCA). I would assume I would switch to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Archeparchy. My kids are a very precocious 2 and 5.

As soon as you mentioned four Byzantine parishes and one Maronite parish within 10 minutes of your home I knew you had to be from Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is truely the center of Byzantine Catholicism in the US. (I am from Pittsburgh.)

The Orthodox are very well represented as well. There are two Orthodox churches right next to eachother in Carnegie. One might be Russian and the other Romanian or something.

 

[jimmy]

I have no doubt and meant to give no judgment here. I think we might be hitting a language barrier. What I mean is, often our Orthodox converts are so hostile to their own culture that they forget that the purpose of the Church is evangelism, not to help them escape who they are. We in America are too easily enamored with the “exotic” because we are so disgusted with ourselves that we can’t believe that our own heritage might also be capable of containing Christ. Self-hatred runs deep in the culture here, because we have a hard time seeing things bigger than ourselves. This is my view anyway.

I am very attracted by the Orthodox Church but it is not because I hate my country or culture. I love America and am very proud to be an American. But that being said, Orthodoxy does offer a vision of Christ and Christianity that is unified and forces you to make a decision. Maybe, if you looked deeper you might find that the conversions are usually based on something far deeper than culture and self-hatred.I agree that Americans should be American but you need to ask what this means. Are we supposed to be materialists and make economics the center of our faith like many Americans do? What is it to be an American Christian? Is it just the Greek and Russian festivals you have a problem with or is it the Orthodox call to obedience to tradition and an ascetic spirit that you have a problem with?

 

[trophybearer]

I apologize if I have given offense, Volodymyr, because I know that, depending on what part of Ukraine you are from, you are saddled with your own difficulties in the matter of Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism. But why should I have to learn Russian or Greek (I speak both, btw) in order to practice my faith in my own country? And why should I have to dig through a mountain of alien ethnic culture and outrageously difficult language and obscure history, and make my children do the same, just so we can get to Jesus? I am sorry, my brother, but Orthodoxy in America has made an idol of ethnicity, and we’ve mistaken it for Holy Tradition. :nope: And the folks that we seem to attract from Catholicism and Protestantism seem to be of the sort who could just as easily convert to Zen, just as long as the religion they practice expresses their underlying dislike for their native culture, which is really just another form of self-hatred (a very American illness), or their unwillingness to submit to ecclesiastical authority (another very American illness). In this case it’s not really about Jesus or faith, is it? It’s just a subtle form of delusion.

I converted into the Orthodox faith 15 years ago from Baptist. I value what the Church has taught me about sacramental life and the communion of the Saints, and I deeply revere her witness in the face of European Communism and radical Islam. But I’m beginning to see that the Orthodox Church doesn’t really have much of an apostolic vision for my own people (Americans), and I’d rather that I and my family be able to worship in a Church that boldly stands for something in MY homeland other than quaint ethnic customs and good food. If and when I make the switch, I will take it as a final trip home by way of Byzantium and I will thank God for it, and I will bear no grudges.

Peace

Why should anyone have had to learn Latin to understand what was going on in Roman Catholic Churches all those centuries? My grandparents went to Church every Sunday and everything was in Latin. We had the Italian Church, the Irish Church, the Polish Church, etc. When my dad was little he learned the prayers in Latin, Polish and English. How dare they expect that from him?? What if you had encountered Catholicism then? Wouldn’t that be a bit too “exotic”?

 

[QuoVado]

I am very attracted by the Orthodox Church but it is not because I hate my country or culture. I love America and am very proud to be an American. But that being said, Orthodoxy does offer a vision of Christ and Christianity that is unified and forces you to make a decision.

Yes, a very compelling one. This particular vision is the common birthright of all Christians, not just the Orthodox. Catholicism has it, too.

 

[QuoVado]

Can I ask my fellow Orthodox to kindly stay out this conversation? I logged on to CA to hear what Catholics have to say about their Faith, not fight with other Orthodox.

Thanks

 

[trophybearer]

Can I ask my fellow Orthodox to kindly stay out this conversation? I logged on to CA to hear what Catholics have to say about their Faith, not fight with other Orthodox.

Thanks

It’s a message board. If you want a private conversation the internet isn’t the place.

 

[wjp984]

I read your OP, and no, I do not have children.

I’m sorry that you are caught up in scandal. I truly am. But leaving the Holy Orthodox Church over it makes little sense to me. If you were switching parishes, then I would understand completely. If the Orthodox Church taught that whatever these scandals were are a part of the faith, then I would understand. Is it really enough to abandon the faith?

But if it is not theological, then you are leaving out of convenience and I find that to be sad. I would say the same exact thing if a Catholic were to become Orthodox because of scandals in their Church. You will find that the grass is not greener on the other said.** I myself was a Protestant and converted to Catholicism 3 years ago and am now preparing for baptism in the Orthodox Church.**

I am aware that the Holy Orthodox Church is composed of sinners. I am a sinner myself, but the people who do not act in accordance with their faith and the grace that Christ gives us have nothing to do with the theology of the Holy Orthodox Church. That should be the reason you are Orthodox: because of what it teaches, not the holiness (or lack thereof) of certain members. I am a big boy and can take criticism of my Church. None of us are without fault.

As I said before, if you believe in the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, then be Roman Catholic because you cannot be Orthodox while believing in Roman Catholic post-schism dogmas. It would be spiritual schizophrenia to do so (believe me, I’ve tried ).

I will end this conversation here and I will pray for you, your family, your parish and your bishop. May the Lord be with you.

In Christ,
Andrew

Wait, the Orthodox dont honor Catholic Baptisms?

 

[Ghosty]

Wait, the Orthodox dont honor Catholic Baptisms?

They don’t honor Protestant Baptisms.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s a message board. If you want a private conversation the internet isn’t the place.

It is a fair request, besides which no one is going to change their mind on such a thing if they are badgered by those they’re leaving. It’s a sad story, but from the sounds of it a decision has been made.
Besides which it is off the topic of the thread, and could be contrived to be dangerously close to proselytizing which is against the forum rules.

 

[Nine_Two]

They don’t honor Protestant Baptisms.

Peace and God bless!

We honour our own baptisms. If a Bishop feels certain prerequisites are met he can grant economia to recognise a baptism, but he is under no obligation to do so.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Besides which it is off the topic of the thread, and could be contrived to be dangerously close to proselytizing which is against the forum rules.

Thanks Nine_Two. I’m an Eastern Catholic and was going to say same earlier but didn’t have the courage. I’m glad you did. God Bless.