Communion of Saints

[mercygate]

Can anybody give me the nickel tour through the various explanations of the term “Communion of Saints” in denominations which espouse the Creeds? I know about Anglicans, but would be interested in what other denominations hold. I presume Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists have some kind of answer. But other denominations?

I do not know whether Baptists, for example, claim the Creeds to the point that they actually ever deal with the phrase, “Communion of Saints.”

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Can anybody give me the nickel tour through the various explanations of the term “Communion of Saints” in denominations which espouse the Creeds? I know about Anglicans, but would be interested in what other denominations hold. I presume Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists have some kind of answer. But other denominations?

I do not know whether Baptists, for example, claim the Creeds to the point that they actually ever deal with the phrase, “Communion of Saints.”

Baptists deal with this and many other issues. Here is a link to the catholic encyclopedia about the various denominations/leaders view:
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

As for the Baptists specifically, the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith chapter 28 states the communion of saints thus:

1. 
   *]All saints that are united to Jesus Christ, their head, by His Spirit, and faith, although they are not made thereby one person with Him, have fellowship in His graces, sufferings, death, resurrection and glory; and being united to one another in love, they have communion in each others gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, in an orderly way, as to conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.
   *]Saints, by profession, are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services, as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things according to their several abilities and necessities; which communion, according to the rule of the gospel, though especially to be exercised by them, in the relations wherein they stand, whether in families, or churches, yet as God offereth opportunity, is to be extended to all the household of faith, even all those who in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus; nevertheless their communion one with another as saints, doth not take away, or infringe the title or property which each man hath in his goods and possessions.
   
   In other words, we’re all part of the big family of God and should continue to worship together, take care of one another and love each other using our gifts and abilities given us by our Maker.

 

[Katholikos]

mercygate:

I do not know whether Baptists, for example, claim the Creeds to the point that they actually ever deal with the phrase, “Communion of Saints.”

I’m an ex-Baptist (Southern) . Baptists “have no creed but Christ.” They emphasize religious liberty and freedom of conscience; that means no commitment to any creed. There is no authority over the individual.

It’s difficult to generalize about Baptists – there are about 250 different varieties, more or less, worldwide – but one thing is certain: the term, “Communion of Saints” is totally foreign to any Baptist.

Interesting fact: 9/10ths of all Baptists live in the U.S.

JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

I’m an ex-Baptist (Southern) . Baptists “have no creed but Christ.” They emphasize religious liberty and freedom of conscience; that means no commitment to any creed. There is no authority over the individual.

It’s difficult to generalize about Baptists – there are about 250 different varieties, more or less, worldwide – but one thing is certain: the term, “Communion of Saints” is totally foreign to any Baptist.

Interesting fact: 9/10ths of all Baptists live in the U.S.

JMJ Jay

If you notice post #2 above, you will realize your statements are not true.

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

Baptists deal with this and many other issues. Here is a link to the catholic encyclopedia about the various denominations/leaders view:
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

As for the Baptists specifically, the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith chapter 28 states the communion of saints thus:

1. 
   *]All saints that are united to Jesus Christ, their head, by His Spirit, and faith, although they are not made thereby one person with Him, have fellowship in His graces, sufferings, death, resurrection and glory; and being united to one another in love, they have communion in each others gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, in an orderly way, as to conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.
   *]Saints, by profession, are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services, as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things according to their several abilities and necessities; which communion, according to the rule of the gospel, though especially to be exercised by them, in the relations wherein they stand, whether in families, or churches, yet as God offereth opportunity, is to be extended to all the household of faith, even all those who in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus; nevertheless their communion one with another as saints, doth not take away, or infringe the title or property which each man hath in his goods and possessions.
   
   In other words, we’re all part of the big family of God and should continue to worship together, take care of one another and love each other using our gifts and abilities given us by our Maker.

1. 
   Baptists do not have the understanding of the Communion of Saints, as expressed in the Creeds, to which mercygate was referring. All that is meant by “saints” here is other* living* Christians.
   
   Baptists don’t cotton to talking to “dead people.” They have no concept of the whole Family of God on Earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven, in communion with one another.
   
   Baptists are an independent lot. They would not all subscribe to the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith. The only thing anyone can be sure that the hundreds of denominations that label themselves “Baptist” agree upon is the necessity of baptism by immersion (actually, submersion).
   
   “No creed but Christ.”
   
   JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

Baptists do not have the understanding of the Communion of Saints, as expressed in the Creeds, to which mercygate was referring. All that is meant by “saints” here is other* living* Christians.

Baptists don’t cotton to talking to “dead people.” They have no concept of the whole Family of God on Earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven, in communion with one another.

Baptists are an independent lot. They would not all subscribe to the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith. The only thing anyone can be sure that the hundreds of denominations that label themselves “Baptist” agree upon is the necessity of baptism by immersion (actually, submersion).

“No creed but Christ.”

JMJ Jay

No. Their understanding of “communion of saints” and “saints” is just different from yours. They have an understanding - the correct one . Of course, saints are all living Christians, just like the Bible teaches.

Deut. 33:2 “And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”

Are these ten thousands of saints spoken of in the Pentateuch any other than those believing Israelites? They are certainly not canonized saints from Rome.

Acts 9:13 “Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:”

Again, are these the canonized saints of Rome? No.

Acts 9:32 “And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.”

Who are the saints here? They are the living believers living in Lydda.

No concept of the family of God on earth? That’s exactly what the Philadelphia confession shows.

Yes, you are right. We have no doctrines of men like purgatory.

And, not all Catholics would subscribe to the Catechism or the church’s stance on birth control, abortion, etc. etc.

There’s more cohesiveness within the Baptist faith than is presented by non-Baptists and ex-Baptists.

At least we all agree on something!

 

[mercygate]

Thanks, Katholikos & ahimsaman72! I appreciate the responses. Very helpful.

So Baptists accept neither the Creeds nor the idea that one remains a saint after death. Got it! Where on earth did I get the idea that they acknowledged the first four Ecumenical Councils? (Just scratching my head, here. No need to research anything for me.)

Maybe I thought they might claim the Creeds because of their Calvinist history. Presbyterians accept the Creeds, do they not?

Any Presbys or former Presbys out there who can give me a quick education on the Communion of Saints.?

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Thanks, Katholikos & ahimsaman72! I appreciate the responses. Very helpful.

So Baptists accept neither the Creeds nor the idea that one remains a saint after death. Got it! Where on earth did I get the idea that they acknowledged the first four Ecumenical Councils? (Just scratching my head, here. No need to research anything for me.)

Maybe I thought they might claim the Creeds because of their Calvinist history. Presbyterians accept the Creeds, do they not?

Any Presbys or former Presbys out there who can give me a quick education on the Communion of Saints.?

Some Baptists’ accept creeds, some don’t. Most do not. I accept The Apostles Creed myself. Of course, I don’t hold any creed as infallible, as I hold only Scripture to be infallible. The Apostles Creed is simply a brief summary of Christian belief based on the Bible. The Nicene Creed and onward would not be considered valid by any Baptist because of the baptismal regeneration doctrine in it.

And, no, the belief is that we are living saints here on earth. After death, we become like the angels in heaven as Christ points out clearly in Matthew 22:29,30

1. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
2. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God bless…

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

No. Their understanding of “communion of saints” and “saints” is just different from yours. They have an understanding - the correct one . Of course, saints are all living Christians, just like the Bible teaches.

Certainly, all living Christians are called “saints.”

The Apostles had the correct understanding and taught it to the Catholic Church long before the NT was written. That’s the understanding that was incorporated into the Creeds. The Family of God is inseparable – death does not divide us – we are united in Christ, now and forever.

The Protestant understandings (plural) were (plural) “discovered” in or after the 16th century by different men (and women) reading the NT, isolated from its context – the heart of the living, teaching Church that wrote it.

Are these ten thousands of saints spoken of in the Pentateuch any other than those believing Israelites? They are certainly not canonized saints from Rome. Acts 9:13 “Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem.” Again, are these the canonized saints of Rome? No. Acts 9:32 “And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.” Who are the saints here? They are the living believers living in Lydda.

No concept of the family of God on earth? That’s exactly what the Philadelphia confession shows.

The Catholic Church has been teaching the Truth that the Family of God is one – united in Christ – wherever we may be, for 2,000 years. Yes, part of the family is on earth. We are called saints. The members of our family that are in Purgatory, having their souls purified in preparation for Heaven, are called saints. Our family members in Heaven are called Saints, whether they have been canonized or not. Everyone in heaven is a Saint, but we may not know all their names at this point in our journey. Baptists have it half right.

Yes, you are right. We have no doctrines of men like purgatory.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself, and instructed by the Blessed Apostles. The Faith was once for all handed down to the saints (the holy ones), Jude 3

The very first Baptist church was founded by John Smyth in 1607, in Amsterdam, a split from the Mennonites. It has been splitting and splintering ever since.

Which of these institutions is man made, and which is God made?

Purgatory is a doctrine of God.

And, not all Catholics would subscribe to the Catechism or the church’s stance on birth control, abortion, etc. etc.

A Catholic, by definition, believes all that the Catholic Church teaches. One may call himself a Catholic, but that doesn’t make it true. I may call myself an American, but unless I have met the requirements for citizenship, the name is false. There are those using the name Catholic who do not meet the requirements of the Church for membership.

There’s more cohesiveness within the Baptist faith than is presented by non-Baptists and ex-Baptists.

Unfortunately, there is no “Baptist faith.” There are about 250 or so competing and conflicting “faiths” that call themselves Baptist.

Peace, Jay

 

[Exporter]

This is almost funny to me, this thread I mean.

I can tell you that last summer when I asked a Church of Christ man what was the Creed of the CofC …I got blasted, I sensed anger. I was told that C of C have no Creed and anyone that did was looney tunes.

I didn’t ask again.

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

Some Baptists’ accept creeds, some don’t. Most do not. I accept The Apostles Creed myself. Of course, I don’t hold any creed as infallible, as I hold only Scripture to be infallible. The Apostles Creed is simply a brief summary of Christian belief based on the Bible. The Nicene Creed and onward would not be considered valid by any Baptist because of the baptismal regeneration doctrine in it.

And, no, the belief is that we are living saints here on earth. After death, we become like the angels in heaven as Christ points out clearly in Matthew 22:29,30

1. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
2. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God bless…

Please tell us which Baptist churches accept a creed and name the creed they accept.

What you or any individual Baptist may do cannot be said to be representative of the group. One of the Baptist principles is liberty of conscience – that means each individual is free to believe what he pleases, but he is not permitted to impose his beliefs on any other Baptist. It’s a basic Baptist tenet that there is No Creed but Christ. (I’m repeating myself, huh?)

Matthew 22:28-29 RSV says “. . . but are LIKE the angels in heaven.” We are created as bodies with souls. The human soul is a created spirit – it does not occupy space. When freed of our bodies, we are LIKE angels, which are pure spirit. The saints become LIKE angels, pure spirit.

Mercygate, Baptists churches as institutions do not have creeds; individual Baptists, however, may, since there is no authority but themselves. Baptists do not believe that saints on earth can communicate (have communion) with those in heaven. I have never heard anyone who is presumed to be in heaven referred to as a “saint” – not even St. Paul, St. John, St. Mary, and so on. That sounds too Catholic, don’tchaknow.

JMJ Jay

 

[WBB]

Katholikos:

Baptists do not have the understanding of the Communion of Saints, as expressed in the Creeds, to which mercygate was referring. All that is meant by “saints” here is other* living* Christians.

Baptists don’t cotton to talking to “dead people.” They have no concept of the whole Family of God on Earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven, in communion with one another.

Baptists are an independent lot. They would not all subscribe to the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith. The only thing anyone can be sure that the hundreds of denominations that label themselves “Baptist” agree upon is the necessity of baptism by immersion (actually, submersion).

“No creed but Christ.”

JMJ Jay

Jay,

It is interesting that Baptists don’t like to talk to “dead people.” Interestingly, Jesus talked to “dead people” during his Transfiguration (Moses was there and Elijah (of course he was assumed into heaven on a chariot, but Moses was “dead.”) And ahimsaman72**, **Jesus does indeed tell us a couple of things…that God is the God of the living and not the dead (when discussing the resurrection with the Saduccees), and that we would be like angels, not that we would be angels. I know that this will not be enough to make you believe the communion of the saints, but it is just some of the evidence that we use to support our belief.

Brian

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

Please tell us which Baptist churches accept a creed and name the creed they accept.

What you or any individual Baptist may do cannot be said to be representative of the group. One of the Baptist principles is liberty of conscience – that means each individual is free to believe what he pleases, but he is not permitted to impose his beliefs on any other Baptist. It’s a basic Baptist tenet that there is No Creed but Christ. (I’m repeating myself, huh?)

Matthew 22:28-29 RSV says “. . . but are LIKE the angels in heaven.” We are created as bodies with souls. The human soul is a created spirit – it does not occupy space. When freed of our bodies, we are LIKE angels, which are pure spirit. The saints become LIKE angels, pure spirit.

Mercygate, Baptists churches as institutions do not have creeds; individual Baptists, however, may, since there is no authority but themselves. Baptists do not believe that saints on earth can communicate (have communion) with those in heaven. I have never heard anyone who is presumed to be in heaven referred to as a “saint” – not even St. Paul, St. John, St. Mary, and so on. That sounds too Catholic, don’tchaknow.

JMJ Jay

First, angels do have bodies. In Ezekiel they are described as having wings and faces. There are many examples. Should I get them for you?

I don’t know which Baptist churches accept creeds. From what I have known in my life, the Bible and the Bible alone is the only rule of faith. Creeds are secondary and non-binding. People are free to accept creeds or not. It doesn’t affect their salvation - liberty as you have pointed out - is a staple of the Baptist faith.

Yes, I cannot force anyone to believe what I do. That would be compulsion - a terrible sin that other churches and religions have done in the past and continue to do to this day.

Let every man be free to practice his religion, free from persecution and compulsion by the state or any other entity.

I’ve never heard “No creed but Christ” in any of my Baptist churches. Maybe I lived a sheltered Baptist life .

The Bible, which is God breathed, is our only authority. It is the Word of God. Therefore, anything man can say otherwise is not sufficient or binding.

The authority issue stems from the Catholic Church’s desire to rule over others governmentally and ecclesiastically and to exert that authority with any means available.

 

[ahimsaman72]

WBB:

Jay,

It is interesting that Baptists don’t like to talk to “dead people.” Interestingly, Jesus talked to “dead people” during his Transfiguration (Moses was there and Elijah (of course he was assumed into heaven on a chariot, but Moses was “dead.”) And ahimsaman72**, **Jesus does indeed tell us a couple of things…that God is the God of the living and not the dead (when discussing the resurrection with the Saduccees), and that we would be like angels, not that we would be angels. I know that this will not be enough to make you believe the communion of the saints, but it is just some of the evidence that we use to support our belief.

Brian

I think you would agree that the transfiguration is a very special event. And, as you point out, Elijah was translated into heaven, along with Enoch long before him.

The Sadduccees did not believe in a resurrection. Jesus pointed out to them (from the Scriptures) that God is the God of the living, not the dead, signifying that there is indeed a resurrection of the dead. I never said we would be angels. I said we would be LIKE angels, just as Scripture tells us.

We are dramatically different from angels and always will be.

One thing to be noted: I don’t understand why you would pray to a saint (even if he’s there in heaven and can hear us) when Christ gave His disciples the model prayer, which begins with, “Our Father”. If I can go straight to the Father (which I can) then why on earth would I want to talk to Saint Ignatius? I want to go straight to my Maker, not what the Maker made.

 

[jimmy]

ahimsaman72:

I think you would agree that the transfiguration is a very special event. And, as you point out, Elijah was translated into heaven, along with Enoch long before him.

The Sadduccees did not believe in a resurrection. Jesus pointed out to them (from the Scriptures) that God is the God of the living, not the dead, signifying that there is indeed a resurrection of the dead. I never said we would be angels. I said we would be LIKE angels, just as Scripture tells us.

We are dramatically different from angels and always will be.

One thing to be noted: I don’t understand why you would pray to a saint (even if he’s there in heaven and can hear us) when Christ gave His disciples the model prayer, which begins with, “Our Father”. If I can go straight to the Father (which I can) then why on earth would I want to talk to Saint Ignatius? I want to go straight to my Maker, not what the Maker made.

What does it matter if Elijah was taken to Heaven? He was not the only one who was there, Moses was there too. Moses was not taken body and soul to Heaven. Enoch wasn’t present at the transfiguration.

You talk to the saints because that is what God wants. He wants his people to participate in the salvation of the rest of the family and to help make the family of God grow. Our mission to help the rest of our family does not stop when we die on earth, but it continues in Heaven. We are one community and we are expected to help eachother.

Also when we die we are made pure, we are taught to love God and to love our neighbors. We will desire to help those on earth when we reach Heaven. Do you think God would deprive us of that?

You say in a post above that angels have physical bodies. You make this claim from Isaiah6 I think. You claim that they have wings, but there are also times when they appear as men.

Let me ask you something, when Abraham entertains the Lord in Genesis 18 the Lord is represented as 3 people(the Trinity). Abraham specifically calls them Lord, so it is not an angel. Does God have a body? Becuase if he does, then we better all become Mormon.

1 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. 2 And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near him: and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. 3 And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant: 4 But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5 And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. Gen.18

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

I never said we would be angels. I said we would be LIKE angels, just as Scripture tells us.

Thanks, ahimsaman 72. I don’t want this to degenerate into an argumentative thread about why you should accept the Catholic view of the Communion of Saints and why we should accept yours. So, to all who have kept this to “just the facts, Ma’am:”:tiphat:

ahimsaman72:

I can go straight to the Father (which I can) then why on earth would I want to talk to Saint Ignatius? I want to go straight to my Maker, not what the Maker made.

As you know, we go straight to the Boss all the time. And he comes to us in the Sacraments. But sometimes we invite our friends into the conversation as well (after all, they are good friends of the Boss also). For Catholics, that is part of what “Communion” of Saints is about.

I talk to Saint Ignatius because he’s a REALLY good friend of mine! And he talks to me, too – mostly through the printed page but also, I truly believe that all of these brothers and sisters who have gone before have a “communion” which must involve “communication” – not like we have with Christ but still a “fellowship of the vine,” to borrow Our Lord’s image.

Just to clarify: because the Church has a process by which it verifies sainthood, i.e., to declare by canon that someone has made it to the big white goalpost in the sky, doesn’t exclude the holy ones on earth from “sainthood.” There tends to be a confusion (especially among Catholics) that unless the Church has slapped the honorific title “Saint” in front of your name, then you aren’t one. People tend to think that only those *declared *to be saints are saints, which is not true.

But the living “saints” St. Paul refers to in his epistles are people he admonishes strongly for appallingly sinful behavior (you know the list!) – they are the “saints” of the trudging Church on earth: wheat and tares.

It’s great to have two Baptists on this thread. I’m still hoping for a Lutheran and a Presbyterian to jump in.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

And, no, the belief is that we are living saints here on earth. After death, we become like the angels in heaven as Christ points out clearly in Matthew 22:29,30

OK. I don’t want this to get into a right/wrong thread – and thank you for the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article: pithy, understandable, short. From that article, it is interesting to see how the sola Scriptura position drives to so many positions which, to the Catholic mind, are inconsistent with Scripture and with “the whole counsel of God.”

About the living saints becoming “like the angels in heaven,” I do have a question. Since throughout Scripture people on earth converse with the angels (most notably, of course, Our Lady in her extended discourse with Gabriel), theoretically, why couldn’t a Baptist converse with one of the saints in Heaven (cf. Jesus discourse to the Saducees in Mt. 22, and his insistence that God is the God of the living)?

If Moses (who, unlike Elijah, actually died) came and talked to Jesus at the Transfiguration, is it so strange that we think of these extremely lively “dead people” as in a communion with ourselves in a very real way? Nobody ever had more direct personal access to the Boss than Jesus. Yet there he is, having a little mountain-top chit-chat with Moses and Elijah. And who joins the conversation? The Boss himself! You really can’t keep company with the saints without getting involved with the Boss. It’s that “communion” thing. The Boss is center point of the Communion of Saints.

You know me by now. As a Convert, this point was one of my early craw-stickers but it was one of the first to crumble.

Sure hope we get a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Methodist in here.

 

[Uncle_Abee]

This is my first post so I would like to start off by saying hello.

There’s nothing wrong with saying creeds. Creeds should be scripturally based. The problem is that you can’t force anyone to say a creed. Creeds are not commanded by God. Jesus didn’t teach the apostles to say creeds. The apostles never said any creeds (none recorded in scripture). Creeds came into being hundreds of years after the apostles’ death. Different groups believed differently about Christianity. The creed summarized a group’s belief.

We don’t say creeds in the church of Christ because their is no practice of them in the scriptures. There is no scriptural authority for them. The same goes for the communion of saints idea. I believe in saints. Every living Christian is a saint. But, whether I believe saints are dead or alive and I can communicate to the dead saints or whatever has no bearing on my salvation.

I wouldn’t pray to a dead saint because Jesus has commanded us to pray to God through Him only. Jesus is our advocate. Only He can approach God for us. Jesus has told us this in scriptures. All things are done through Christ. My dead mother cannot approach God for me.
As far as dead people praying for you, I cannot find any scriptural evidence of anyone asking a dead person to pray for them. None of the apostles (who were Jews) ever asked any Old Testament prophet (whao was then dead) to ever pray for them. They all beseeched Christ.

 

[mercygate]

Uncle Abee:

This is my first post so I would like to start off by saying hello.

Hello, yourself! Thanks for joining this thread.

So, if I understand the C of C position, you do not have a theology of the Communion of Saints because the concept is not specifically delineated on the surface of Scripture?

Since the word “saint” is all over the place in the New Testament, do you have the understanding ahimsaman72 (Baptist) shared with us that saints are just living Christians and that when they die, they are no longer saints but “like the angels in Heaven?” Would that sum it up accurately?

And do you also believe that when we “fall asleep in the Lord” we are dead and not living in Christ? Is that accurate?

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

First, angels do have bodies. In Ezekiel they are described as having wings and faces. There are many examples. Should I get them for you?

Angels are pure created spirits, called “angels” because some are sent by God as messengers to humans. They can, if God wills, manifest themselves in bodily form.

I don’t know which Baptist churches accept creeds.

Then you shouldn’t say, as you did in a previous post, that some Baptist churches accept creeds, since you can’t name any who do. The fact is, Baptist churches do not accept creeds.

From what I have known in my life, the Bible and the Bible alone is the only rule of faith.

This raises Qs of what is the Bible and why do you believe it; but I don’t want to hijack mercygate’s thread, so I’ll start a thread with those Qs and invite you to post your answer there.

Creeds are secondary and non-binding. People are free to accept creeds or not. It doesn’t affect their salvation - liberty as you have pointed out - is a staple of the Baptist faith.

Creeds are summaries of the Faith of the Church. The Apostle’s Creed dates from the second century. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed is from 325, refined in 381. The Nicene creed is incorporated into the Church’s liturgy and is an expression of her Faith. Other creeds have been important in Church history.

The Bible, which is God breathed, is our only authority. It is the Word of God. Therefore, anything man can say otherwise is not sufficient or binding.

This will be addressed on the “What is the Bible” thread. Please join me there.

The authority issue stems from the Catholic Church’s desire to rule over others governmentally and ecclesiastically and to exert that authority with any means available.

Spoken like a true Baptist. I remember so well – the preacher slamming the Catholic Church from the pulpit, perpetuating the Black Legends, and the congregation believing him without question. I believed it, too. I thank God for the opportunity to unlearn the bull-oney I was taught.

TRIUMPH, The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church – A 2,000-Year History, published in 2001, is an objective, factual history written by H.W. Crocker III, a Civil War historian. Crocker is a recent convert to the Catholic Faith from Anglicanism. He is an excellent writer; the book is a great read.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761529241/103-5968656-1312666?v=glance

Gotta go now, but I’ll post the “What is the Bible and why do you believe it” thread tomorrow.

JMJ Jay