Communion of Saints

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

Then you shouldn’t say, as you did in a previous post, that some Baptist churches accept creeds, since you can’t name any who do. The fact is, Baptist churches do not accept creeds.

I should’ve said that some Baptist people (which make up Baptist churches) accept creeds. That would’ve been more clear. I meant no harm. My mistake.

Just because you or I don’t know of any personally doesn’t mean it isn’t so. Just because I don’t know any Russians personally doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

OK. I don’t want this to get into a right/wrong thread – and thank you for the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article: pithy, understandable, short. From that article, it is interesting to see how the sola Scriptura position drives to so many positions which, to the Catholic mind, are inconsistent with Scripture and with “the whole counsel of God.”

About the living saints becoming “like the angels in heaven,” I do have a question. Since throughout Scripture people on earth converse with the angels (most notably, of course, Our Lady in her extended discourse with Gabriel), theoretically, why couldn’t a Baptist converse with one of the saints in Heaven (cf. Jesus discourse to the Saducees in Mt. 22, and his insistence that God is the God of the living)?

If Moses (who, unlike Elijah, actually died) came and talked to Jesus at the Transfiguration, is it so strange that we think of these extremely lively “dead people” as in a communion with ourselves in a very real way? Nobody ever had more direct personal access to the Boss than Jesus. Yet there he is, having a little mountain-top chit-chat with Moses and Elijah. And who joins the conversation? The Boss himself! You really can’t keep company with the saints without getting involved with the Boss. It’s that “communion” thing. The Boss is center point of the Communion of Saints.

You know me by now. As a Convert, this point was one of my early craw-stickers but it was one of the first to crumble.

Sure hope we get a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Methodist in here.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there was a “great gulf fixed” which separated those on earth from those in heaven. (Luke 16). I do not believe we can communicate with dead saints. Angels yes, saints no. It is apparent from Scripture that Angels have spoken to humans, therefore I can accept that.

Yes, dear friend, I know you by now. I wish you only blessings and peace. I believe I will leave the angel discussion and let others chime in for a bit.

Peace…

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72 (and all interested parties), the new thread is called “Which Bible? Whose Canon?” on the Apologetics forum.

Y’all come.

JMJ Jay

 

[WBB]

ahimsaman72:

I think you would agree that the transfiguration is a very special event. And, as you point out, Elijah was translated into heaven, along with Enoch long before him.

The Sadduccees did not believe in a resurrection. Jesus pointed out to them (from the Scriptures) that God is the God of the living, not the dead, signifying that there is indeed a resurrection of the dead. I never said we would be angels. I said we would be LIKE angels, just as Scripture tells us.

We are dramatically different from angels and always will be.

One thing to be noted: I don’t understand why you would pray to a saint (even if he’s there in heaven and can hear us) when Christ gave His disciples the model prayer, which begins with, “Our Father”. If I can go straight to the Father (which I can) then why on earth would I want to talk to Saint Ignatius? I want to go straight to my Maker, not what the Maker made.

I do not pray to the saints. I ask the saints to pray for me. In my mind, there is a big difference. I pray only to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You are Baptist, so I know that you ask for friends and family to pray for you. In our theology, the saints in heaven are our older brothers and sisters whom we ask for prayers in the same way.

The Transfiguration was a unique event, I agree, but the point being that there can be contact with those in heaven.

Oh, and by the way, I don’t ask for the Saints to pray for me nearly as often as I go directly to God for prayer.

 

[ahimsaman72]

WBB:

I do not pray to the saints. I ask the saints to pray for me. In my mind, there is a big difference. I pray only to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You are Baptist, so I know that you ask for friends and family to pray for you. In our theology, the saints in heaven are our older brothers and sisters whom we ask for prayers in the same way.

The Transfiguration was a unique event, I agree, but the point being that there can be contact with those in heaven.

Oh, and by the way, I don’t ask for the Saints to pray for me nearly as often as I go directly to God for prayer.

I have to admit it does seem very strange to pray to God through a saint (if I understand you correctly). Yes, I ask others to pray for me sometimes. I can understand the fact that the saints are our older brothers and sisters. They certainly have gone before us and have finished their pilgrimage on earth. I still can’t bring myself to believe in using the saints in prayer.

I am glad to hear that you go to God in prayer.

My daily prayer consists of saying the Lord’s Prayer and the Apostles Creed and the Ten Commandments (as Luther taught in his catechisms) and my own personal prayer. I also read the devotional, “My Upmost for His Highest” and maybe a prayer from a book titled, “My Prayer Book” published by Concordia Publishing. I have found these things very satisfying and bring me much peace. Sometimes I miss a day . I get back on the wagon and go again the next day .

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

My daily prayer consists of . . . I get back on the wagon and go again the next day .

Peace…

I believe one way that Christians participate in a communion with one another and with the Saints is to pray “together” even when we are alone. One way Catholics do this is to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. The fundamental element of the Divine Office is the Psalter. When any of us prays the Psalms, I believe we participate in a very special form of Communion with all those who have ever prayed the Psalms.

 

[MariaG]

posted by ahimsaman72

I have to admit it does seem very strange to pray to God through a saint (if I understand you correctly). Yes, I ask others to pray for me sometimes.

We do not go through a saint for prayer to God unless you want to say you go through others for prayer to God. For Catholics there is absolutely no difference in asking those on earth to pray for us than it is to ask those in heaven to pray for us.

So if you understand that for a Catholic Christian, asking a Saint to pray for me is the same thing as asking you to pray for me, yes you understand.

It seems strange to a Catholic that other Christians would cut up the Body of Christ into parts that can’t communicate through His Grace and will.

You sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

I believe one way that Christians participate in a communion with one another and with the Saints is to pray “together” even when we are alone. One way Catholics do this is to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. The fundamental element of the Divine Office is the Psalter. When any of us prays the Psalms, I believe we participate in a very special form of Communion with all those who have ever prayed the Psalms.

I love Psalm 23. It is such a refreshing passage of Scripture.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MariaG:

We do not go through a saint for prayer to God unless you want to say you go through others for prayer to God. For Catholics there is absolutely no difference in asking those on earth to pray for us than it is to ask those in heaven to pray for us.

So if you understand that for a Catholic Christian, asking a Saint to pray for me is the same thing as asking you to pray for me, yes you understand.

It seems strange to a Catholic that other Christians would cut up the Body of Christ into parts that can’t communicate through His Grace and will.

You sister in Christ,
Maria

I see where you are coming from on this, yet I still don’t see enough Scriptural evidence to support the view. Given the importance of prayer, I would think it would be very clear. And I know that at this point you might be inclined to remind me that it has been taught through Tradition that it is so. Nevertheless, I am still not persuaded.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

I see where you are coming from on this, yet I still don’t see enough Scriptural evidence to support the view. Given the importance of prayer, I would think it would be very clear. And I know that at this point you might be inclined to remind me that it has been taught through Tradition that it is so. Nevertheless, I am still not persuaded.

Still waiting for a Lutheran or Presbyterian to join this.

I don’t think we particularly need Tradition on this one. It’s a matter of looking at Scripture in light of the doctrine of God and the nature of Man. I go to the “vine and branches” image used by Our Lord and by the “God of the living” assertion throughout Scripture. From that perspective the idea that there is no communication between the worlds seems implausible.

There is a Protestant view of the situation of the departed which involves a separation between us and them and somehow the idea that they cannot hear or see us and don’t even care about us. They draw this conclusion from Scripture (no kidding) but I am not sure why they ever felt the need to do this – except that when you get into the doctrine of the Communion of Saints, it touches on the nature of the afterlife and that gets you into the notion of Purgatory, which gets you into the whole subject of prayers for the dead, and takes you to indulgences.

One can easily imagine that the inexcusable historical abuse of indulgences so poisoned everybody’s view of the afterlife that the Reformers were eager to cut away every vestige of it.

When one notes that Luther acknowledged that the acceptance of infant Baptism among all the big reformers was a “miracle” because of only inferential Scriptural warrant – and that he acknowledged that infant Baptism was a Tradition received from the early Church (God forbid!), and though he never challenged it, you get some idea of the wrecking ball effect of trying to support yourself on only one leg of the stool.

Actually, come to think of it, infant Baptism is itself, an affirmation of the omnipotence of God and also of the Communion of Saints.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there was a “great gulf fixed” which separated those on earth from those in heaven. (Luke 16). I do not believe we can communicate with dead saints. Angels yes, saints no. It is apparent from Scripture that Angels have spoken to humans, therefore I can accept that.

Somehow I did not see this post yesterday. This is the passage I was referring to that Protestants use to assert that there is no communication between us and those who have gone ahead. I’m not quite sure how “great chasm” and the inability to travel across it translates into a denial of the Communion of Saints or a denial of communication across the worlds (especially since Abraham and Dives are having such a nice little discussion). Maybe somebody can expand on that for me since I don’t believe that a good sola Scriptura advocate would base such a big case on this one-liner that doesn’t even address the issue.

So being “like angels” doesn’t extend, in the Baptist view, to communion with the Body of Christ on earth. OK. Got it. That would be because the word “angel” refers to what the creature does rather than what the creature *is *would it not? He’s a messenger, so he tells people things. A Saint is not a messenger, so, even if he is “like an angel” he doesn’t share in this work. Is that it? And if he doesn’t bring messages to earth, he cannot hear the hearts of us who are still on earth. Right?

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Somehow I did not see this post yesterday. This is the passage I was referring to that Protestants use to assert that there is no communication between us and those who have gone ahead. I’m not quite sure how “great chasm” and the inability to travel across it translates into a denial of the Communion of Saints or a denial of communication across the worlds (especially since Abraham and Dives are having such a nice little discussion). Maybe somebody can expand on that for me since I don’t believe that a good sola Scriptura advocate would base such a big case on this one-liner that doesn’t even address the issue.

So being “like angels” doesn’t extend, in the Baptist view, to communion with the Body of Christ on earth. OK. Got it. That would be because the word “angel” refers to what the creature does rather than what the creature *is *would it not? He’s a messenger, so he tells people things. A Saint is not a messenger, so, even if he is “like an angel” he doesn’t share in this work. Is that it? And if he doesn’t bring messages to earth, he cannot hear the hearts of us who are still on earth. Right?

Frankly, I can’t give you specific details on the Baptist view, but what I quoted to you above is one passage I have always known concerning the issue. It’s an issue that is not addressed much during teaching or worshipping. Unlike the Catholic Church, the Baptist churches don’t focus so much on prayer. From what I have learned of Catholicism there is a great reverance and focus on prayer that I can appreciate.

I think I would agree with your interpretation above. Angels are messengers (as the Greek points out), whereas saints are not described as such.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

Baptist churches don’t focus so much on prayer. From what I have learned of Catholicism there is a great reverance and focus on prayer that I can appreciate.

This is a great revelation to me.

Yes. Catholics stress prayer of all kinds: vocal, intercessory, communal, charismatic, liturgical, prayer with and through Scripture, personal prayer . . . We tend to think that Protestants of the more evangelical stripe have a lock on spontaneous vocal prayer, but actually we do a lot of it ourselves, and many of us find that a day in which we have not spent time in an intimate prayer with our Father is a day of deprivation – even when we come to places where the experience of prayer and of God is one of dryness or even desolation. Maybe that is why the whole idea of the Communion of Saints is easier for us to grasp.

 

[Katholikos]

QUOTE:
The biblical reason for asking saints to pray for us:

1. All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rm 12:5).
2. Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4, 15; Col 3:15).
3. Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rm 8:35-39).
4. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10, 1 Thess 5:11, Gal 6:2).

We are members of Christ’s one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in Gods family, In that union, we call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory. Just as in our human families, we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and inspiration.
END QUOTE

Wish I’d said that! Can’t remembered where I got it, but I found it among my treasures and wanted to share it.

JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

QUOTE:
The biblical reason for asking saints to pray for us:

1. All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rm 12:5).
2. Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4, 15; Col 3:15).
3. Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rm 8:35-39).
4. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10, 1 Thess 5:11, Gal 6:2).

We are members of Christ’s one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in Gods family, In that union, we call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory. Just as in our human families, we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and inspiration.
END QUOTE

Wish I’d said that! Can’t remembered where I got it, but I found it among my treasures and wanted to share it.

JMJ Jay

Thanks - very insightful. I will look at this more carefully in the upcoming days.

 

[mark_a]

ahimsaman72:

My daily prayer consists of saying the Lord’s Prayer and the Apostles Creed and the Ten Commandments (as Luther taught in his catechisms) and my own personal prayer.

Just thought you might like to know you are getting closer to praying a Rosary. Be careful!

 

[Katholikos]

Doesn’t the history of Christianity count for somethng? It does for me!

The earliest Christians prayed to the saints. The evidence is everywhere in ancient structures. The catacombs are full of inscriptions asking the saints to intercede for the beloved departed. In the necropolis where St. Peter is buried, over which Constantine’s Basilica of St. Peter and now Michaelangelo’s modern St. Peter’s Basilica were both built, an inscription on the nearby tomb of the Valerii family reads: "Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body."

JMJ Jay