Communion question for Lutherans

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Just a couple of questions for Lutherans:
  • What is needed for there to be a real presence in Holy Communion? Do you need to be ordained in either the Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran churches? If not, does the real presence exist in say, an Evangelical church even though the congregation or the pastor don’t believe in the real presence? I know Catholics and Orthodox state you have to be a priest with the Church’s holy orders, and therefore clergy outside these communions cannot change the elements. I was just wondering what the Lutheran position is.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
This is for the Lutherans to clarify but just in case they don’t frequent CAF, I’ll give my views.

As reformation Christians, Lutherans do not believe the natural substances of the bread and wine are changed at the Lord’s Supper.

Consubstantiation is the term that I’ve heard used in classic Lutheranism, ie the spiritual presence of the Lord co-exists with the natural substance of the bread and wine. The image of iron in the fire is often used: iron used as an analogy for the natural substances of bread and wine and the fire being the real presence of Christ.

Additionally, Lutherans occupy a spectrum with varying degrees of commitment to classical Lutheranism so the requirements for a valid consecration may vary as it does among many Protestant groups.

Eucharistic doctrine is not uniform as it is amongst Catholics and there is not one Lutheran church but a federation of churches with various levels of connections to each other and influenced by other forms of Protestant doctrine.

Most Protestants would say bread (leavened or unleavened) and wine (or grape juice) are necessary, the words of the Lord at the Last Supper should be prayed and his death and passion commemorated.

The question of who recites the prayer would vary across the denominations but classical Lutherans would require an ordained minister to preside. Those on the other side of the spectrum would be less prescriptive and may accept lay presidency at the Lord’s Supper.

That said, amongst Protestants, classical Lutherans have the highest Eucharistic doctrine, higher even than classical Anglicans. Luther did not suppress the sacrament of Penance and saw it as a fitting preparation for Holy Communion.
 
Just a couple of questions for Lutherans:
  • What is needed for there to be a real presence in Holy Communion? Do you need to be ordained in either the **Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran churches? **If not, does the real presence exist in say, an Evangelical church even though the congregation or the pastor don’t believe in the real presence? I know Catholics and Orthodox state you have to be a priest with the Church’s holy orders, and therefore clergy outside these communions cannot change the elements. I was just wondering what the Lutheran position is.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Lutherans (ELCA) also have a mutual recognition of Orders with the Episcopal Church.
 
This is for the Lutherans to clarify but just in case they don’t frequent CAF, I’ll give my views.

As reformation Christians, Lutherans do not believe the natural substances of the bread and wine are changed at the Lord’s Supper.

Consubstantiation is the term that I’ve heard used in classic Lutheranism, ie the spiritual presence of the Lord co-exists with the natural substance of the bread and wine. The image of iron in the fire is often used: iron used as an analogy for the natural substances of bread and wine and the fire being the real presence of Christ.

Additionally, Lutherans occupy a spectrum with varying degrees of commitment to classical Lutheranism so the requirements for a valid consecration may vary as it does among many Protestant groups.

Eucharistic doctrine is not uniform as it is amongst Catholics and there is not one Lutheran church but a federation of churches with various levels of connections to each other and influenced by other forms of Protestant doctrine.

Most Protestants would say bread (leavened or unleavened) and wine (or grape juice) are necessary, the words of the Lord at the Last Supper should be prayed and his death and passion commemorated.

The question of who recites the prayer would vary across the denominations but classical Lutherans would require an ordained minister to preside. Those on the other side of the spectrum would be less prescriptive and may accept lay presidency at the Lord’s Supper.

That said, amongst Protestants, classical Lutherans have the highest Eucharistic doctrine, higher even than classical Anglicans. Luther did not suppress the sacrament of Penance and saw it as a fitting preparation for Holy Communion.
Much of this see I’ve seen Lutherans say, here. And there have been some good and knowledgeable Lutheran posters here.

I hope some are still around and will make comment on the consubstantiation point. I think they might have some disagreement with respect to your relevant para…

Anglicans do not suppress the sacrament of confession/reconciliation, considered as private auricular confession. All may, some should, none must. The general confession in the Mass is generally considered efficacious for reception. Generally. You know Anglicans.
 
This is for the Lutherans to clarify but just in case they don’t frequent CAF, I’ll give my views.
We’ll take it from here. :cool: In all seriousness, I’d like to thank you for this opening statement. Too often, folks will impose what they think others believe as fact. It is so very welcoming to us non-Catholics that you took the time to acknowledge that it is for Lutherans to explain Lutheran thinking. It’s appreciated. 👍
As reformation Christians, Lutherans do not believe the natural substances of the bread and wine are changed at the Lord’s Supper.
Ja und nein. While Lutherans do not believe that the bread and wine effectively cease to exist as in Transubstantiation, “The Lutheran tradition affirms the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but rather by the power of the creative word are given as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense Lutherans also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition, of a change.” (Conflict to Communion quoting the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues, Round IV, 1953. It’s worth noting that this was a section that even Confessional Lutherans agreed with, not just Liberal agree-with-anyone ecumenicalists) In other words, the consecration is real. The Verba have real power.
Consubstantiation is the term that I’ve heard used in classic Lutheranism, ie the spiritual presence of the Lord co-exists with the natural substance of the bread and wine. The image of iron in the fire is often used: iron used as an analogy for the natural substances of bread and wine and the fire being the real presence of Christ.
No. Lutherans do not believe in Consubstantiation. Any Lutheran who says this either does not understand what he is saying or is no Lutheran with regard to the Supper. Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation are both Artistotelian terms that can be interpreted as ways of saying how the Real Presence comes to be. Lutherans are against explaining away this miracle. Instead, they prefer the term “Sacramental Union.” It is merely an acknowledgement of Christ’s words that His Body and Blood is really, truly present in, with, under, around, inside, outside, over, and in every way in the Bread and Wine – yet not replacing the Bread and Wine (Transubstantiation) nor co-mingled or creating a new substance (Consubstantiation). It is a mystery. Lutherans object to anything that explains any further than that, similar to the Orthodox in the respect.

A note about the term “Consubstantiation.” It was invented by Crypto-Calvinists (Calvinist pastors who pretended to be Lutheran in order to essentially convert the Lutheran churches to Calvinism) to confuse Lutherans into thinking their beliefs on the Supper were erroneously similar to Roman Catholics and that John Calvin’s beliefs on the Supper were correct. The real Lutherans who stayed faithful were called Gnesio-Lutherans.
Additionally, Lutherans occupy a spectrum with varying degrees of commitment to classical Lutheranism so the requirements for a valid consecration may vary as it does among many Protestant groups.

Eucharistic doctrine is not uniform as it is amongst Catholics and there is not one Lutheran church but a federation of churches with various levels of connections to each other and influenced by other forms of Protestant doctrine.
Sadly, this is true. There are many “Lutherans” who are, in actuality, not Lutheran at all. The measure of Lutheranism is the degree to which a body adheres to the Lutheran Confessions. Groups that hold tightly to them are called Confessional Lutherans (WELS, LCMS, ELS, etc.). Confessional Lutherans typically don’t consider the more liberal groups (ELCA, Church of Sweden, etc.) to even be Lutheran, and accordingly do not share fellowship or communion. See this thread for more info on different Lutheran groups.
Most Protestants would say bread (leavened or unleavened) and wine (or grape juice) are necessary, the words of the Lord at the Last Supper should be prayed and his death and passion commemorated.

The question of who recites the prayer would vary across the denominations but classical Lutherans would require an ordained minister to preside. Those on the other side of the spectrum would be less prescriptive and may accept lay presidency at the Lord’s Supper.

That said, amongst Protestants, classical Lutherans have the highest Eucharistic doctrine, higher even than classical Anglicans. Luther did not suppress the sacrament of Penance and saw it as a fitting preparation for Holy Communion.
Thank you for your kind words toward classical/Confessional Lutheranism. We do hold a high view of the Supper. Some have said Lutherans hold the Supper higher than Catholics due to the ‘mystery’ nature of the transformative Word, opposed to the ‘explained miracle’ that is dependent merely on succession (I don’t think it’s wise to brag about who’s more pious, myself! :D).

Anyway… Lutherans don’t use words like “valid” to describe the Supper, but in order to avoid confusion, offense, or potential false use, the following things should always take place:
  • The Verba must be spoken. It is the Word that effects the “change” in the elements, not any person.
  • Administered by a called and ordained pastor. It is what the church has charged them to do, and it explicitly noted in the Lutheran Confessions.
  • Consist of Bread and Wine. These were the elements used by Christ.
  • Confession and Absolution must take place before communion (during the Divine Service, if not individually).
 
Anyway… Lutherans don’t use words like “valid” to describe the Supper, but in order to avoid confusion, offense, or potential false use, the following things should always take place:
  • The Verba must be spoken. It is the Word that effects the “change” in the elements, not any person.
  • Administered by a called and ordained pastor. It is what the church has charged them to do, and it explicitly noted in the Lutheran Confessions.
  • Consist of Bread and Wine. These were the elements used by Christ.
  • Confession and Absolution must take place before communion (during the Divine Service, if not individually).
My follow up question would be: If I attend an Evangelical service when they celebrate Holy Communion, would there be a real presence would it just be symbolic? Or would belief in the real presence at this point be required as well?
 
My follow up question would be: If I attend an Evangelical service when they celebrate Holy Communion, would there be a real presence would it just be symbolic? Or would belief in the real presence at this point be required as well?
If JonNC or Steido01 tell you something different, then take their word.

I would say that there is no real presence in such a service that I could affirm. I would pray that Christ would be with his people as much as is fitting is such difficult times.

I also would not participate so as to not cause a scandal.
 
No. Lutherans do not believe in Consubstantiation. Any Lutheran who says this either does not understand what he is saying or is no Lutheran with regard to the Supper. Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation are both Artistotelian terms that can be interpreted as ways of saying how the Real Presence comes to be. Lutherans are against explaining away this miracle. Instead, they prefer the term “Sacramental Union.” It is merely an acknowledgement of Christ’s words that His Body and Blood is really, truly present in, with, under, around, inside, outside, over, and in every way in the Bread and Wine – yet not replacing the Bread and Wine (Transubstantiation) nor co-mingled or creating a new substance (Consubstantiation). It is a mystery. Lutherans object to anything that explains any further than that, similar to the Orthodox in the respect.
The part that I have highlighted. Doesn’t this fit the definition of consubtantiation then?
 
The part that I have highlighted. Doesn’t this fit the definition of consubtantiation then?
It would if we were discussing legal terms.

But you would have to consider that Lutherans reject the idea that our definitions could express more fully what God has told us what it the sacraments is.

Simply put:

God Word > man’s definitions.

Again, if a wiser Lutheran (most of them are) corrects me, default to their explanation.
 
It would if we were discussing legal terms.

But you would have to consider that Lutherans reject the idea that our definitions could express more fully what God has told us what it the sacraments is.

Simply put:

God Word > man’s definitions.

Again, if a wiser Lutheran (most of them are) corrects me, default to their explanation.
A reason to reject the term Trinity?
 
A reason to reject the term Trinity?
It’s not the term that problematic it’s the definitions that circumscribe the mystery.

A good example of a good definition for a God’s mystery would be the Athanasian Creed.

And let me add… Lutherans shouldn’t (and typically don’t) get too upset with good definitions like Transubstantiation.
 
Sadly, this is true. There are many “Lutherans” who are, in actuality, not Lutheran at all. The measure of Lutheranism is the degree to which a body adheres to the Lutheran Confessions. Groups that hold tightly to them are called Confessional Lutherans (WELS, LCMS, ELS, etc.). Confessional Lutherans typically don’t consider the more liberal groups (ELCA, Church of Sweden, etc.) to even be Lutheran, and accordingly do not share fellowship or communion.
Do WELS Lutherans even share communion with LCMS Lutherans? Probably not.
 
It’s not the term that problematic it’s the definitions that circumscribe the mystery.
I guess I am confused. I do not see how consubstantiation, or transubstantiation, limit the mystery. Neither term explains exactly how the bread is transformed, only what the end results are.

Which is why you had some Orthodox in the past centuries admit that transubstantiation is an accurate term.
 
I guess I am confused. I do not see how consubstantiation, or transubstantiation, limit the mystery. Neither term explains exactly how the bread is transformed, only what the end results are.

Which is why you had some Orthodox in the past centuries admit that transubstantiation is an accurate term.
The term doesn’t alarm some Anglicans, either.
 
The part that I have highlighted. Doesn’t this fit the definition of consubtantiation then?
If one read only the single word you highlighted out of its context, maybe. But I didn’t say just one single word. The rest of that sentence is just as important. It is a mystery.
 
If one read only the single word you highlighted out of its context, maybe. But I didn’t say just one single word. The rest of that sentence is just as important. It is a mystery.
I am sure it is a mystery. I’ve read the context. As soon as you say with, it automatically fits the definition.

Reminds me of the story I once heard in my youth.

A man drives up in a new Model T. His neighbor says: “nice automobile.” The man replies: “It is not an automobile, it is a horseless carriage.”
 
If JonNC or Steido01 tell you something different, then take their word.

I would say that there is no real presence in such a service that I could affirm. I would pray that Christ would be with his people as much as is fitting is such difficult times.

I also would not participate so as to not cause a scandal.
But why wouldn’t be present? Because the people don’t believe in it or because the pastor doesn’t?
 
But why wouldn’t be present? Because the people don’t believe in it or because the pastor doesn’t?
Ha! Are you trying to push me in the apostolic succession trap? 🙂

I hope Christ is not present! I would hate to see people (unknowingly) eat and drink judgment upon themselves * - Lord have mercy on us!
  • 1 Corinthians 11:29
 
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