Communion question for Lutherans

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benjohnson said:
Ha! Are you trying to push me in the apostolic succession trap? 🙂

I hope Christ is not present! I would hate to see people (unknowingly) eat and drink judgment upon themselves * - Lord have mercy on us!
  • 1 Corinthians 11:29
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No, it’s an honest question. 😃

But how is it that the body and blood can be truly present in a Lutheran service but not in others? Is belief in the real presence sufficient? And if so, who has to be the one believing - the celebrant or the people?
 
FabiusMaximus said:
No, it’s an honest question. 😃

But how is it that the body and blood can be truly present in a Lutheran service but not in others? Is belief in the real presence sufficient? And if so, who has to be the one believing - the celebrant or the people?
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Upon reflection, I should have been very cautious - I can’t say with certainty that Christ isn’t present in other less orthodox churchs.

I should have made a positive affirmation on what Christ has told us - that his body and blood are given for us in the Sacrament. We claim to be a valid continuation of the western church - I would leave if I knew otherwise.
 
benjohnson said:
Upon reflection, I should have been very cautious - I can’t say with certainty that Christ isn’t present in other less orthodox churchs.

I should have made a positive affirmation on what Christ has told us - that his body and blood are given for us in the Sacrament. We claim to be a valid continuation of the western church - I would leave if I knew otherwise.
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So it could be present in other churches, but because they’ve departed from Lutheranism as much as they did, you can’t say for sure. Would that be a fair statement?

I swear, no gotchas are coming.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
So it could be present in other churches, but because they’ve departed from Lutheranism as much as they did, you can’t say for sure. Would that be a fair statement?

I swear, no gotchas are coming.
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That they have strayed from the one holy, catholic, and apostolic church - but otherwise my feelings.

I’m torn, because I love profess the church as given to us by God, but I do respect some aspects of other Christian bodies - the Quakers for example. While their theology is messed up, they live closer to what you see in the Didache.
 
benjohnson said:
That they have strayed from the one holy, catholic, and apostolic church - but otherwise my feelings.

I’m torn, because I love profess the church as given to us by God, but I do respect some aspects of other Christian bodies - the Quakers for example. While their theology is messed up, they live closer to what you see in the Didache.
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So is the belief regarding the bread and wine the criteria for intercommunion for Lutherans? Or is it the perceived sameness of faith?
 
jimkhong said:
So is the belief regarding the bread and wine the criteria for intercommunion for Lutherans? Or is it the perceived sameness of faith?
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The grounds for intercommunion between (actual) Lutheran church bodies is total agreement in doctrine. Because those who take communion unworthily eat and drink condemnation onto themselves, Lutherans take the very pastoral approach of generally not permitting nonmembers to commune.

Exceptions can be made at the pastor’s discretion, provided the individual truly does profess the Real Presence (no Calvinists, Zwinglians, Anabaptists, etc.) and is unable to receive it from their own church. For example, Lutheran chaplains have administered the sacrament to Roman Catholics who have requested it at their deathbeds. (That does not necessarily make this acceptable from a Roman Catholic standpoint, however.)

All that said, liberal bodies that are not within Lutheran orthodoxy will commune any and every one.
 
steido01 said:
The grounds for intercommunion between (actual) Lutheran church bodies is total agreement in doctrine. Because those who take communion unworthily eat and drink condemnation onto themselves, Lutherans take the very pastoral approach of generally not permitting nonmembers to commune.
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We ELCA Lutherans let all Christians take communion in our churches so we run the risk that some of them might be fake Lutherans. 😉
 
Thorolfr said:
We ELCA Lutherans let all Christians take communion in our churches so we run the risk that some of them might be fake Lutherans. 😉
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Many ELCA churches will commune those that are not baptized.

Presumably they ripped out 1 Corinthians out of their Bibles.
 
benjohnson said:
Many ELCA churches will commune those that are not baptized.

Presumably they ripped out 1 Corinthians out of their Bibles.
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I understand ELCA do not commune with Church of Sweden. Any reason why? Uppsala seems to me to be so Lutheran.
 
steido01 said:
For example, Lutheran chaplains have administered the sacrament to Roman Catholics who have requested it at their deathbeds. (That does not necessarily make this acceptable from a Roman Catholic standpoint, however.)
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It does in certain circumstances. In fact, I am struck by the similarities with the Catholic practice and Canon Law. A balance between doctrine, ecclesiastical communion and pastoral realities. Two Churches looking at the same problem independently arriving at the same (or similar) conclusions.
 
Thorolfr said:
We ELCA Lutherans let all Christians take communion in our churches so we run the risk that some of them might be fake Lutherans. 😉
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Ray Zalinsky: Good, you’ve p(name removed by moderator)ointed it. Step two is washing it out.
 
benjohnson said:
That they have strayed from the one holy, catholic, and apostolic church - but otherwise my feelings.

I’m torn, because I love profess the church as given to us by God, but I do respect some aspects of other Christian bodies - the Quakers for example. While their theology is messed up, they live closer to what you see in the Didache.
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Yeah but respecting other Christian bodies isn’t the same as needing to believe that they have the real presence of Jesus Christ. It’s irrelevant. A Catholic will not believe that a Lutheran has the Eucharist because Lutherans don’t have Apostolic Succession and therefore don’t have the authority to consecrate the elements, but this doesn’t mean there is no respect for Lutheranism.
 
jimkhong said:
It does in certain circumstances. In fact, I am struck by the similarities with the Catholic practice and Canon Law. A balance between doctrine, ecclesiastical communion and pastoral realities. Two Churches looking at the same problem independently arriving at the same (or similar) conclusions.
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Indeed. Our common grounding in pre-Tridentine Catholicism is pretty visible when we compare faith in practice. This is a blessing; it makes dialogue between traditional Roman Catholics and Confessional Lutherans easy and effective. We use similar terminology, acknowledge where we differ, and don’t try to gloss over where we don’t agree with flowery ecumenical language. It’s why Lutherans for Life and Catholics for Life are able to march together each year.
 
jimkhong said:
I understand ELCA do not commune with Church of Sweden. Any reason why? Uppsala seems to me to be so Lutheran.
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The ELCA is in full communion with the Church of Sweden through the Lutheran World Federation (LWF), which requires all member bodies to share pulpit/altar fellowship.

It’s the LCMS, WELS, ELS, LCC, and other Confessional Lutheran churches that do not share fellowship with the Church of Sweden or any other member bodies of the LWF. The reason is because those bodies are decidedly not Lutheran (though there are pockets of Lutherans within them).

No real Lutheran body can support things like abortion, heterodox unionism with the Reformed, or flat-out heretical syncretism with New Age and pagan religions.
 
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