Communion Question

[paperwight66]

Actually, one does not “participate” in Mass by watching it on television. Inasmuch as I love the Papal Masses, I am not particpating in them (even in the live telecast) because I am not there. I have to physically be at Mass in order to fulfill my obligation and participate.

Now, I do not believe that the Elect are prohibited from assisting at daily Mass. However, in the ritual of the scrutinies, it does call for their dismissal. Bear in mind, too, that they are allowed to remain for the entire liturgy during the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper.

Doesn’t it seem odd, though, that a non-Catholic without any intention of seeking instruction can stay for the whole of Mass, not questions asked or difficulty made, whereas somebody who is actively trying to learn more about the Faith is supposed to be dismissed?

I say ‘supposed to be’, as I have never seen it happen in our parish.

 

[IrishAm]

Doesn’t it seem odd, though, that a non-Catholic without any intention of seeking instruction can stay for the whole of Mass, not questions asked or difficulty made, whereas somebody who is actively trying to learn more about the Faith is supposed to be dismissed?

I say ‘supposed to be’, as I have never seen it happen in our parish.

I was thinking along the same lines . . . and wondered if this dismissal period is considered part of the preparation and penitential nature of the conversion time (and limited to a very specific time frame within their process), if a non-baptized candidate was under the same regulations as a previously baptized candidate, and if anyone actually belonged to a parish that dismissed anyone during the Mass expect for the “official” candidates during the last few weeks before the Easter Vigil.

 

[Phemie]

Doesn’t it seem odd, though, that a non-Catholic without any intention of seeking instruction can stay for the whole of Mass, not questions asked or difficulty made, whereas somebody who is actively trying to learn more about the Faith is supposed to be dismissed?

I say ‘supposed to be’, as I have never seen it happen in our parish.

Only catechumens are supposed to be dismissed, not candidates. Unfortunately, most parishes I know do not differentiate between the baptized and the non-baptized when it comes to dismissal. Do they even differentiate between non-Catholic candidates and Catholic candidates at dismissal time or do they lump everyone together?

 

[Trumpetina]

Only catechumens are supposed to be dismissed, not candidates. Unfortunately, most parishes I know do not differentiate between the baptized and the non-baptized when it comes to dismissal. Do they even differentiate between non-Catholic candidates and Catholic candidates at dismissal time or do they lump everyone together?

At my parish we are all lumped together when we are dismissed.

 

[puzzleannie]

Go, and obviously cannot receive communion at this time. I would really like to go to additional masses through the week, but I am not sure what to do when it is time for communion. A!

you simply remain in your pew, kneeling or standing, in prayer. Ask your RCIA instructor for a prayer of spiritual communion, wherein you unite in mind and heart with all those who are receiving and ask for Christ’s grace in that way, or simply speak to Jesus in your own words of your longing to be united with his Church and receive Him.

Welcome home! you catechumens are my reason for living. oooh I love my job

For all those who insist the dismissal of catechumens is required at the Sunday Mass during which the begin their weekly instruction, or at any other time, it is not. Dismissal is always optional. The source for those who ask is the RCIA ritual book. in any case the dismissal is only during the Mass for which the readings begin their formation time, not every Mass they may attend. Please do not make up rules for people. The RCIA catechists in each parish will instruct the catechumens on the practice in that parish. And no, folks should not come forward for a blessing at communion time unless the priest has issued that invitation, as it is not a universal practice.

OP, be sure you ask this question in your class as others may also be wondering. This is actually a good stress free time to be at Mass, listen and observe and learn.

 

[Abba]

Hello everyone,

Well, I searched high and I searched low and have been doing plenty of reading these past days on this matter. One of the causes of the understanding I have about the value of the catechumens leaving before what used to be also called missa sacramentorum is exactly that I have been reading lately a lot of ancient writings. Since the dismissal of the catechumens was considered very important at all Masses I thought this was still the case. I asked Benedictgal for a quote from official Church documents and I myself searched for one either noting that it was no longer required or noting that it is. I have been unable to find one. It appears as though it was very important up to the 12th century and gradually started being less enforced or given less importance than in earlier times.

This ritual, although being important at some time in Church history does not seem to be mentioned in a Church catechism or whatever. I definately did not exhaust the possibilities of where this could have been mentioned in some official Church document as a ritual (which was also practiced in other Rites) or that the requirement are no longer necessary, but from what I did search I did not find such a document. It appears to have been a process that took place in time at the instructions of the local Bishops which has finally brought the tradition to what it is in our present time - optional to the local hierarchy. The Pastor of the church is free to decide what is best for his parish taking under consideration even finances.

I can appreciate the liberty of it all as in biblical times catechumens did not have a ritual that they needed to go through although already there is mention in 55AD. On the other hand, it seems that the ritual before the 5th century and there about was extremely long and seems, at least to me to have been in need of improvement as catechumens were free to choose when they would be baptized and this could take decades. Yet, I appreciate the spiritual value of dismissal, but, in my reading have recognized that it is not essential to help the catechumen appreciate the Eucharist, etc… yet, I do not see how something so worthwhile has been replaced by something necessarily better or even equivalent.

So, basically catechumen dismissal is not an official requirement of the universal Church, although, historically it was considered important for the catechumens to be dismissed even to the point of calling the first part of the Mass the Mass of the Catechumens. In Newadvent, (Catholic Encyclopedia) the writer/s note that in the early days the Church was concern with persecution and part of the long examination etc… of the catechumens and what their ritual involved was to prevent problems of infiltration etc… It does not note in Newadvent, specifically, that this was the reason for the dismissal, some modern writings are writing that this was the cause but, I am not so convinced. I appreciate the spiritual value of the dismissal, some precaution and reassurance was taking place but, I do not see the practice of the dismissal of the Catechumens across rites and borders and in peaceful areas as having it’s cause necessarily in the taking of precaution from infiltrators. It is my personal opinion, it seems to me to have spiritual value of it’s own, although still just a practice and discipline. It appears from my limited research that it is optional to the pastor and it is for the pastors to decide what would be the best practice for his parish. I think the lack of uniformity is bad. I think the Church should have an official mandate that would apply to the Universal ChurchI on something as important as this. I think permitting dioceses the option of dismissal creates confusion and again, I appreciate the spiritual value of the dismissal.

I agree with the statement on the theological and pastoral reflections made in preparation
for the upcoming 50th International Eucharistic Congress:

PONTIFICAL COMMITTEE
FOR INTERNATIONAL EUCHARISTIC CONGRESSES

The Eucharist:
Communion with Christ and with one another

Theological and Pastoral Reflections in Preparation
for the
50th International Eucharistic Congress

to be celebrated in Dublin, Ireland
(June 10th – 17th 2012)

The Prayer of the Faithful is not something to be taken for granted. Catechumens are asked to withdraw before the Prayers of the Faithful. It is a privilege to be part of this praying community united with Christ and with one another.

vatican.va/roman_curia/po…o-base_en.html

Here are something of the things I read:

(This is was m favorite, just because I learned much)
CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY

GENERAL DIRECTORY
FOR CATECHESIS
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_17041998_directory-for-catechesis_en.html

Culture and Faith
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_01031996_doc_i-1996-not_en.html

Catechumen
newadvent.org/cathen/03430b.htm

Liturgy of the Mass
newadvent.org/cathen/09790b.htm

Rites in the United States
newadvent.org/cathen/13078a.htm

Roman Missal Formational Materials
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

dsjliturgy.blogspot.com/2009/03/do-we-have-to-use-year-readings-for.html
teamrcia.com/2009/03/03/do-we-have-to-use-year-a-readings-for-the-rcia-scrutinies/

THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
mncuf.org/rites.htm

How Rituals Form and Transform: The Scrutiny Rite from Medieval to Modern Times
dspace.wrlc.org/bitHow Rituals Form and Transform: The Scrutiny Rite from Medieval to Modern Timesstream/1961/9309/1/MANN_cua_0043A_10153display.pdf

popejohnxxiiiparish.com/RCIA.htm

Etc…

 

[Phemie]

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy had this to say

1. The catechumenate for adults, comprising several distinct steps, is to be restored and to be taken into use at the discretion of the local ordinary. By this, means the time of the catechumenate, which is intended as a period of suitable instruction, may be sanctified by sacred rites to be celebrated at successive intervals of time.

At what point in the life of the Church had the catechumenate, as we know it today, fallen out of use?

 

[benedictgal]

At some point, the Catechumens are no longer referred to as such. As of the First Sunday of Lent, during the Rite of Election, they are now referred to as “Elect” for the purposes of the ritual. The Rite of Election is normally celebrated by the diocesan bishop at the Cathedral (or, if need be, a larger church to accommodate all of those who will be baptized at the Easter Vigil).

Unfortunately, as many others have indicated, there seems to be a mixing in of the Catechumens and the Candidates for Full Communion to the point that everyone coming into the Church, not just those who are baptized, are called the “Elect.”

The purpose for the dismissal of the Elect (in the true meaning of the word) is so that they can have time to study and learn the necessary catechesis.

I do not have the Ritual for RCIA in front of me, but, if memory serves, there is a dismissal in there.

When I was asked to provide Church documentation, it was my understanding that the question was more along the lines of participation in the Mass, not about RCIA itself.

 

[Abba]

Only catechumens are supposed to be dismissed, not candidates. Unfortunately, most parishes I know do not differentiate between the baptized and the non-baptized when it comes to dismissal.

This is the other thing that I do not find totally right. I understand that there is a sacramental value in the practice to permit the Candidate (baptized) to remain and the Catechumens to withdraw as the Candidates are already part of the Mystical Body of Christ and although they cannot as yet receive the Eucharist they can participate and ask God to go to them spiritually. I would think in much the same way as a practicing Catholic who cannot receive communion because he/she needs to go to Confession but, still attends Mass.

I don’t see how it is justified to totally ignore the sacramental value of allowing the Candidates to remain and just leave it at the convenience and needs of the pastor. This practice also varies from parish to parish.

Here it says that if there is at least one catechumen in the group (and the rest are Candidates) the whole group is dismissed.

Breaking open the word of God: resources for using the lectionary for …
By Karen Hinman Powell, Joseph P. Sinwell
books.google.com/books?id=cmYHiGxi00EC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=catechumen+and+Candidate+dismissal&source=bl&ots=tDVacYDEzc&sig=orTovy6Zix99puQUoACdz01WBAA&hl=en&ei=zAeSTfPQBIu80QGVyKHNBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=catechumen%20and%20Candidate%20dismissal&f=false

Do they even differentiate between non-Catholic candidates and Catholic candidates at dismissal time or do they lump everyone together?

What do you mean by non-Catholic and Catholic Candidates?

 

[Phemie]

What do you mean by non-Catholic and Catholic Candidates?

Sometimes adult Catholics who haven’t yet been confirmed are included in classes with catechumens and non-Catholic candidates. I was asking if they are dismissed also – they shouldn’t be since they have an obligation to attend Mass every Sunday.

 

[Abba]

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy had this to say
At what point in the life of the Church had the catechumenate, as we know it today, fallen out of use?

Hello Phemie,

The quote you provide is referring to the catechumenate and not specifically to the dismissal of the catechumens. It does note that it comprises of several distinct steps but it does not mention what they are.What I have been wondering is if there is an official church teaching regarding the dismissal. The dismissal of the catechumen was given a lot of importance historically but in modern times it seems not to be so important. The documents I read on the Vatican website that address the catechumens mostly address the importance of passing down the faith clearly and leave the rubric of RCIA up to the Bishops. Those documents also note that Bishops can adopt some of the culture of the country into the introduction/passing on of the faith as long as the act or whatever of the culture that is being integrated does not interfere with the true faith and for this they need approval from Rome.

In other words, I cannot find a Church document that notes the requirement of the dismissal of the cathechumens nor a document noting that it is no longer essential. The importance given to the dismissal seems to have at the disposition of local Bishops diminished through time to finally what it is today, at least in some regions.

This just surprises me because I have been reading a lot of old books that give this regulation a lot of importance.

I understand that it could be like the requirement of veils at Mass, how up to the recent pass it was strictly imposed (at least some pastor were very strict about it) and now is no longer even expected. But, with the veil there is documentation - not so with the dismissal of the catechumen.

What sayest thou?

 

[Phemie]

I will have to consult my Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. That gives all the information you need on the various rites that belong to the catechumenate. I don’t have it at hand and it’s almost 4 a.m. I’m heading for bed, where I should have been 4 hours ago.