communion question

[Traditional_Ang]

Kendy:

I was raised in the catholic church, but I am now a practicinng protestant. I know catholics who reject the churches teaching sexuality and actively support homosexual activists, I also know catholics who donate the money to planned parenhood to counteract the churches pro-life activities. I know catholics who refuse to give offerings in order to avoid funding pro-life activities. I know catholics who are great supporters of liberation theology. Yet, all these people receive communion, and would get really angry if I received communion eventhough I seem to agree on a lot more of the church moral teachings than they do.

I also know catholics who don’t believe in the real presence, but still receive communions. How much of the church teachings does one have to accept to receive communion?

Just Curious,
Kendy

Kendy:

I’m sorry, but these people are committing sacrilege:

*I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?

So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything? No, I mean that what they sacrifice, (they sacrifice) to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.

Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he? “Everything is lawful,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful,” but not everything builds up. I Cor 10:15-23 NAB*

*For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. I Cor 11:13-32 NAB*

Which Protestant Church did you go to, and do they try to have the Sacraments given to us by our Lord?

You were raised Catholic, and it sounds as if you still hold the Catholic Faith in your heart, Could I be so bold as to ask what caused you to leave the Church where that Faith is found so you could still receive a mere shadow of it?

Do you see yourself coming back to the Catholic Church? We do have parishes and Dioceses that do hold and keep the Faith and that aren’t as you described, and our Lord did promise that garbage would not take the Church over, in spite of appearances:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18 KJV

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

estesbob:

This is simply not true. The Church teaches that homosexual behavior is an act of depravity and can not be condoned under any circumstances. If you condone homosexual behavior you have rejected the teachings of the Church and should not recieve communion.

Thank you, Estesbob. I think that Relativism has so infected Catechesis that many Catholics don’t realize that supporting “Gay Causes” such as “Dignity” is a grave matter even if they don’t know that it is.

I really wish that in such instances Catholics would suggest that gays look at Courage Apostolate:
couragerc.net/

The Scriptures on this are quite clear. You’ll see I quoted a couple of them. I think we need to suggest to people who think they can support these abominations that they really need to think twice and examine their counsciences before going to receive our Lord’s Body and Blood:

*You shall not have carnal relations with your neighbor’s wife, defiling yourself with her. (Adultery) You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech,(Abortion) thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; (Homosexuality) such a thing is an abomination. You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, (Bestiality) defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; (Bestiality again) such things are abhorrent.

"Do not defile yourselves by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves. Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for its wickedness, by making it vomit out its inhabitants. Leviticus 18:20-25 NAB*

*Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I Cor 6:9-11 NAB*

All of these separate us from God and His Grace. All of these require repentence and submission to God. That’s where the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Some things called “Contrition” and a “Sincere Purpose of Amendment” come in.

I’m not saying that we should have “Purity Patrols”, but this needs to be preached from the pulpit so that people do not eat and drink judgment on themselves and so that they enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and not the Kingdom of Death.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Kendy:

I also know catholics who don’t believe in the real presence, but still receive communions. How much of the church teachings does one have to accept to receive communion?

Just Curious,
Kendy

Kendy:

You have to accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church in order to receive our Lord’s Body and Blood, unless you’re a member of one of those groups the Pope of Vatican II explicitly allowed to receive our Lord’s Body and Blood in spite of known problems accepting Catholic Dogmas.

This applies to Catholics as much as to non-Catholics, which means that Catholics are not allowed to pick and choose which Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church they’re willing to accept or follow. Those who try to do this are risking their salvation.

Which Dogmas are you having difficulties with? or, Could it be that you’re haveing difficulties with the doctrines as someone MISTATED them?..

There’s someone on another thread who described a Baptist Pastor friend of his who claimed he didn’t believe in Purgatory and then described what he did believe in, which sounded a lot like Purgatory without the term…

In Christ, Michael

 

[gusano]

Kendy:

I know. I was trying gto figure out how they are more entitled to received catholic communion than me

Kendy

Hi Kendy,
seems to me you are more entitled to receive the body and blood of Christ than those "who just have a toe in ".

I would suggest you get in touch with a Catholic Priest and tell him what you told us in your original post.

I’ll bet $1.98 that he would welcome you, so you could help in “The New Evangelism”

God works both the will and the performance.

gusano

 

[Sherlock]

gusano:

Hi Kendy,
seems to me you are more entitled to receive the body and blood of Christ than those "who just have a toe in ".

I would suggest you get in touch with a Catholic Priest and tell him what you told us in your original post.

I’ll bet $1.98 that he would welcome you, so you could help in “The New Evangelism”

God works both the will and the performance.

gusano

Kendy’s ability to receive has NOTHING to do with the state of the people in the pews around her. That there are bad Catholics receiving unworthily does NOT mean that she ought to receive. Kendy has said that she has rejected the Catholic Church: since receiving in a Catholic Church is a statement of communion with that Church, then her reception of Communion would be a lie. That’s it, pure and simple. Also, Kendy has not been a practicing Catholic and has not been fulfilling her Sunday obligation, to say the very least.

 

[puzzleannie]

Kendy:

I was raised in the catholic church, but I am now a practicinng protestant. I know catholics who reject the churches teaching sexuality and actively support homosexual activists, I also know catholics who donate the money to planned parenhood to counteract the churches pro-life activities. I know catholics who refuse to give offerings in order to avoid funding pro-life activities. I know catholics who are great supporters of liberation theology. Yet, all these people receive communion, and would get really angry if I received communion eventhough I seem to agree on a lot more of the church moral teachings than they do.

I also know catholics who don’t believe in the real presence, but still receive communions. How much of the church teachings does one have to accept to receive communion?

Just Curious,
Kendy

the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, and His action in forming the communion which is His Body on earth through this sacrament, does not depend on the belief of the recipients, it is effected through His grace and the action of the Holy Spirit. Yes, it is undeniable that many so-called Catholics receive communion unworthily, with unconfessed mortal sins on their soul, but that does not effect the validity of the sacrament, it only effects their reception of the graces of the sacrament. In any case, the state of another person’s soul is not our concern, we have enough to do caring for our own souls.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Kendy:

I was raised in the catholic church, but I am now a practicinng protestant. I know catholics who reject the churches teaching sexuality and actively support homosexual activists, I also know catholics who donate the money to planned parenhood to counteract the churches pro-life activities. I know catholics who refuse to give offerings in order to avoid funding pro-life activities. I know catholics who are great supporters of liberation theology. Yet, all these people receive communion, and would get really angry if I received communion eventhough I seem to agree on a lot more of the church moral teachings than they do.

I also know catholics who don’t believe in the real presence, but still receive communions. How much of the church teachings does one have to accept to receive communion?

Your desire to receive our Lord Jesus Christ sacramentally in Holy Communion is a good and praiseworthy thing. However, Communion is more than just you and Jesus. In saying, “Amen”, to Jesus sacramentally present in Holy Communion, you are also saying, “Amen”, to his Catholic Church and all its teachings concerning matters of faith and morals.

Catholics are expected to form their consciences according to the truth, i.e., according to what the Catholic Church teaches in matters of faith and morals. For a Catholic with a well-formed conscience to ignore or oppose what the Catholic Church teaches in matters of faith and morals, if it involves a serious matter and is done with full knowledge and complete consent of the will, would be to commit mortal sin. Catholics who are conscious of having committed mortal sin should not receive Holy Communion until they have repented of their sin and, if possible, received Absolution for it from a priest in Confession. To receive Holy Communion in mortal sin is itself a mortal sin and could have dire consequences. (1 Corinthians 11:27-30)

Assuming that your Catholic friends who ignore or oppose various Church teachings are acting in good conscience, believing that they are doing is what God wants them to do, then, due to their malformed consciences, what would otherwise be mortal sin for a Catholic with a well-formed conscience, would probably be for your friends no sin or only venial sin which would not disqualify them from receiving Holy Communion. As Jesus said,

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Luke 12:47-48)

By the way, regarding one of your earlier posts, I would like say, “Wecome”, and offer you an apology on behalf of Catholics everywhere because you were not properly evangelized as a Catholic child. It was a great disservice to you. For the most part, the Church expects Catholic parents to evangelize their own children and sometimes this does not happen. On the bright side, at least you were taught the Our Father as a child, which is more than I can say about my childhood religious education. All I heard as a child was "Angel of God, my guardian dear…", “Now I lay me down to sleep…” and, when my lapsed Catholic mother brought out the good china for Thanksgiving and Christmas, “*Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts…” *My father had Protestant roots but kept his beliefs, if he had any, to himself, and, not surprisingly, I ended up an agnostic much of my life. I came to believe in God and in Jesus and in his Catholic Church in my twenties, only after reading the Bible and the writings of other very early Christians, such as the Apostolic Fathers (Clement of Rome, A.D. 80; the *Didache, *A.D. 100; Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110; etc.), and Justin Martyr (A.D. 155).

Of course, you are correct; the Catholic Church should do a better job evangelizing its own and evangelizing those outside the Church and it should do a better job instructing its own in the faith and in living a truly Christian life. That said, though, weren’t most of the New Testament letters written to address similar issues at the Church’s beginning? The Church had such problems at its beginning, it has them now, and it will have them until Christ comes again at the end of the world because very few, if any, of its earthly members are perfect yet.

 

[StCsDavid]

Kendy:

I was raised in the catholic church, but I am now a practicinng protestant. I know catholics who reject the churches teaching sexuality and actively support homosexual activists, I also know catholics who donate the money to planned parenhood to counteract the churches pro-life activities. I know catholics who refuse to give offerings in order to avoid funding pro-life activities. I know catholics who are great supporters of liberation theology. Yet, all these people receive communion, and would get really angry if I received communion eventhough I seem to agree on a lot more of the church moral teachings than they do.

I also know catholics who don’t believe in the real presence, but still receive communions. How much of the church teachings does one have to accept to receive communion?

We are a church of sinners.

The Church teaches that a person needs to be in a state of grace to receive, but the priest or extraordinary minister of the Eucharist (EM) isn’t called to make that judgment for one. St. Paul warns of the dire consequences of receiving outside this state of grace. As an EM at my parish, I know I have given communion to folks who are likely in a state of mortal sin, but it’s not up to me to stand between a person and their relationship with Christ. I can only pray for their conversion.

I know Protestants whose churches won’t be having services on Sunday because its Christmas and they fear low attendence. I don’t understand or agree with their logic, but I respect their decision and would not point my finger at them and yell “hypocrits!” To what end would that serve?

If your beef with the Catholic Church is that there are hypocrits practicing the faith…maybe you should examine what the Church really teaches and be open to that.

 

[Kendy]

Taditional Ang: Which Protestant Church did you go to, and do they try to have the Sacraments given to us by our Lord?

Kendy: Well, despite what catholics think, increasingly many protestant are fairly flexible about which proestant church they attend. I attended a baptist church for many years, and then I moved attended a lutheran church for a while, but I was disappointed that they would even consider blessing same sex unions so now, I attend a vineyard church.

**Traditional: You were raised Catholic, and it sounds as if you still hold the Catholic Faith in your heart, Could I be so bold as to ask what caused you to leave the Church where that Faith is found so you could still receive a mere shadow of it? **

Kendy: Well, I guess I wouldn’t have left if I thought I was receiving a mere shadow of it elsewhere . For a more thorough answer, check out loving God in a divided church thread.

**Traditional: Do you see yourself coming back to the Catholic Church? **

Kendy: Not at the moment.

 

[Kendy]

StCsDavid:

We are a church of sinners.

The Church teaches that a person needs to be in a state of grace to receive, but the priest or extraordinary minister of the Eucharist (EM) isn’t called to make that judgment for one. St. Paul warns of the dire consequences of receiving outside this state of grace. As an EM at my parish, I know I have given communion to folks who are likely in a state of mortal sin, but it’s not up to me to stand between a person and their relationship with Christ. I can only pray for their conversion.

I know Protestants whose churches won’t be having services on Sunday because its Christmas and they fear low attendence. I don’t understand or agree with their logic, but I respect their decision and would not point my finger at them and yell “hypocrits!” To what end would that serve?

If your beef with the Catholic Church is that there are hypocrits practicing the faith…maybe you should examine what the Church really teaches and be open to that.

(Edited for overreaction and charity) I have no beef. I was just asking under what circumstances is it ok for someone to take communion. Sheesh!

Kendy

 

[scylla]

If you believe in the Catholic Church as the Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ and practice this understanding, then you should be able to receive communion. I would not get angry if I saw you do it, heck most Catholics wouldn’t know you did since there is no communion police or anything like that, but we really stress that you shouldn’t.

Many people take communion when they shouldn’t even though the Bible clearly stresses otherwise. It is a shame that people take it so flippantly these days ignoring passages like
1 Cor 11:29
“For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself”

Not only is it the Body and Blood of Jesus but also a statement of like belief, in that sense.
I would never take communion in an Evangelical Church as I would be lying to myself that I believe that it is symbolic. I would be insulting my brothers and sisters in Calvary Chapel and pretending I believe exactly what they believe it is.

Communion is a very big deal, that is why Jesus stressed it so much in John 6. And that is what many Christians in the early Church defended as the universal belief.
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/eucharist.html

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Sherlock]

I’ll say this again: whether or not Kendy is holier than bad Catholics has NOTHING to do with whether or not she can receive. Receiving communion is a statement of shared belief: since Kendy doesn’t agree with the Church on birth control and other things, she can’t receive. That bad Catholics do is NOT relevant. There were other items that Kendy listed. Since she’s been in Protestant churches, she hasn’t been fulfilling her Sunday obligation at the very least. If she’s using birth control, that’s also a biggie.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Kendy,

Holy Communion relies upon the honor system. Unless you are in full communion with the Catholic Church, you ought not to receive Holy Communion. This applies to Catholics too.

Unfortunately, honor is rare now-a-days.

Catholics must fast prior to Holy Communion in accord with canon law or they should not receive. If they are conscious of having committed a mortal sin since their last sacramental absolution, then they are not to receive Holy Communion.

What you are probably asking is when does dissent and disobedience become a mortal sin. Is that correct? Or are you specifically can partake of Holy Communion?

It is clear from Catholic teaching that denial or obstinate doubt with regard to *de fide dogmas *of Catholicism is a grave sin which requires repentance, contrition, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation prior to a Catholic receiving Holy Communion.

I suspect dissent from other authentic doctrines may be a grave sin as well, depending upon the degree of one’s malice.

To attempt to determine precisely how much one can disobey God before it becomes “grave” is something Catholics should avoid, however.

 

[Sherlock]

itsjustdave1988:

To attempt to determine precisely how much one can disobey God before it becomes “grave” is something Catholics should avoid, however.

Great post, and your quote here hits the nail on the head. Our perspective is very skewed indeed if we desire to know just where the boundaries are so we can know how much disobedience we can “get away” with before some boundary is crossed; how much dissent we can “safely” maintain so we can please ourselves yet not tick God off too much…it’s a poverty-stricken aproach. Our concern ought to be to eliminate the dissent and disobedience entirely. We ought to try and mature and grow in our faith, not act like little kids wishing to have their own way without pushing their parents over the edge.

 

[gusano]

Sherlock:

Kendy’s ability to receive has NOTHING to do with the state of the people in the pews around her.
That there are bad Catholics receiving unworthily does NOT mean that she ought to receive.
Kendy has said that she has rejected the Catholic Church: since receiving in a Catholic Church is a statement of communion with that Church, then her reception of Communion would be a lie. That’s it, pure and simple. Also, Kendy has not been a practicing Catholic and has not been fulfilling her Sunday obligation, to say the very least.

Hi Sherlock,
I agree (with what I made bold)
all the other stuff can be fixed quite easoly.
That is why I suggested she talk with a Priest.
He could lead her to THE FULLNESS OF TRUTH, (she seems to be open)
She is already Baptized,
She already believes most of the Good News, …
and Jesus says;**
1). “The Kingdom of God is at hand,
2), Repent, and
3). Believe the Good News.
4). He who Believes and is Baptized will be saved.”**
Mark 1: 15, & Mark 16: 16

I am confident that if she heard THE REST of The Good News from the Priest, she would re-adjust her “mindset” …
Be Reconciled back into The Church which Christ is building,
and Receive the body and blood of Christ… for the forgiveness of sins.

don’t you think so ?

I have found it is easier to repent
than to change all the laws.


gusano

 

[Kendy]

itsjustdave1988:

Kendy,

What you are probably asking is when does dissent and disobedience become a mortal sin. Is that correct?

That’s exactly what I was asking. Thanks for doing a better job with it.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

Our concern ought to be to eliminate the dissent and disobedience entirely. QUOTE]

I see the value of that, but I wonder if there are potential pitfalls. It seems to leave no room for the individuals to exercise the conscience and permits church authorities to never seriously engage with the reasons for dissent. Given that the church is made of men, it seems potential dangerous.

I realize I am probably going to get no where with that idea, but I had to ask.

Kendy

 

[gusano]

Sherlock:

Great post, and your quote here hits the nail on the head. Our perspective is very skewed indeed if we desire to know just where the boundaries are so we can know how much disobedience we can “get away” with before some boundary is crossed; how much dissent we can “safely” maintain so we can please ourselves yet not tick God off too much…it’s a poverty-stricken aproach. Our concern ought to be to eliminate the dissent and disobedience entirely. We ought to try and mature and grow in our faith, not act like little kids wishing to have their own way without pushing their parents over the edge.

Hi again Sherlock,
That kind of “faith” you describes is what St. Paul describes as; **"…some men have missed the goal of FAITH. ". **
1 Tim. 6: 21

Our concern ought to be; to be a people who are "Madly, (loyally) In Love with Jesus Christ.
again, St Paul says;
"If any man does not love Jesus, let him remain under the curse." 1 Cor. 16: 22

We need to acquire a fresh new spiritual way of thinking.

gusano

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Sherlock:

Our concern ought to be to eliminate the dissent and disobedience entirely. QUOTE]

I see the value of that, but I wonder if there are potential pitfalls. It seems to leave no room for the individuals to exercise the conscience and permits church authorities to never seriously engage with the reasons for dissent. Given that the church is made of men, it seems potential dangerous.

I realize I am probably going to get no where with that idea, but I had to ask.

Kendy

I’m not thinking of the Church so much but I am thinking of Scripture. Jesus tells us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Would you suggest to Jesus that that approach has potential pitfalls, and leaves no room for individuals to exercise their conscience? Obedience is VERY important throughout the Scriptures. I don’t see why anyone who is seeking closer communion with Christ would balk at this (mind you, I’m not saying it’s easy). Nor does St. Paul seem to have much use for do-it-yourself spirituality, as he sends Timothy out to correct those who are teaching a false Gospel. Relativism is not be found in Scripture.
As for the Church being made of men, yes, that’s true, but she is also divine. The Church has authority given to her by Jesus: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me .” (Luke 10:16). Since you have rejected this authority, then it is important that you not partake of communion in a Catholic Church. Since communion is a statement of shared belief, why would you want to lie?

 

[Kendy]

I’m not thinking of the Church so much but I am thinking of Scripture. Jesus tells us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Would you suggest to Jesus that that approach has potential pitfalls, and leaves no room for individuals to exercise their conscience? Obedience is VERY important throughout the Scriptures. I don’t see why anyone who is seeking closer communion with Christ would balk at this (mind you, I’m not saying it’s easy). Nor does St. Paul seem to have much use for do-it-yourself spirituality, as he sends Timothy out to correct those who are teaching a false Gospel. Relativism is not be found in Scripture.

I am not arguing for relativism. I am only wondering of potential pitfalls of allowing no place for one’s conscience. Since that’s not what you meant. We are no argument on this point.

Since you have rejected this authority, then it is important that you not partake of communion in a Catholic Church. Since communion is a statement of shared belief, why would you want to lie?

I just wanted to know under what circumstances can people receive communion since I have noticed that many people receive communion even if they disagree on the church on many issues. And you guys have anwered that question. So, thanks. Now, we can drop it

Kendy