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Phemie
Guest
You’re fortunate. For some of us, that’s all there is on Sundays.
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iloveangels
Guest
Where’s the priest? Who’s consecrating for your services?
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Phemie
Guest
We don’t have a Pastor. The administrator is responsible for three other parishes, two of which can only be reached by air or a 12 hour + boat ride. He’s also not a well man.
When he knows he’ll be away, he consecrates enough at one Sunday Mass to allow for Communion while he’s away.
On July 1 he was in one of the isolated parishes (one that had seen no priest since February) so we had a Communion Service. He came back on July 4 but last Sunday he was sick, so we had another Communion Service. Last Sunday we were simply lucky that he’d celebrated a Nuptial Mass the day before and that meant there were enough Hosts in the Tabernacle to offer Communion to our ~85-member congregation.
When he visits the two isolated parishes he consecrates enough to last for a few months.
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iloveangels
Guest
Wow. I’m glad I don’t live where you do. By the sounds of your explanation, you live in one of the very rare situations that this provision is designed for. Whereas, here, there really isn’t any reason to ever have a Communion Service. Ever. It’s just political messing around when one occurs here.
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TimothyH
Guest
Most times the Eucharist is reseved from the previous Mass.
It’s not a matter of priests being in the vicinity and of cutting out the middle man. A priest cannot celebrate Mass more than twice in a day without permission from the Bishop. If there is a pastoral reason for the faithful to recieve communion and the priest has celebrated Mass twice, or is not available for whatever reason - including the fact that he worked all day and is tired like any other mortal man might be - then a commuion service is not only reasonable, but better than not recieving at all.
The Eastern Churches have their equivalent of a communion service on weekdays throughout Lent. It’s called the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. There is no consecration and that is expected during these liturgies, part of the Eastern expression of our shared faith.
I think people are adverse to a communion service in the Western Church because it resembles the Mass in form and structure, and they somehow feel cheated without consecration. While Mass is always preferred to a communion service, I wish the Church would issue more formal instructions for such services and change the format to give the service it’s own character. Doing so would go a long way toward focusing people on the fact that they are recieving Jesus instead of thinking that they were somehow cheated.
I remember a story about a village in Poland which had no priest for years. They used to gather on Sundays, put the stole over the presider’s chair, and pray. That’s all they could do. It’s difficult to imagine what they wouldn’t have given for the chance to recieve a crumb and kneel for five minutes in prayer!
-Tim-
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iloveangels
Guest
If the priest has celebrated mass twice already that day, I’d be at one of those masses. There is absolutely no reason for me to go to a Communion service. Ever. In this part of the country, and indeed, in most parts of the USA, they’re completely unnecessary.
I can understand it in a foxhole in the middle of Iraq. I can understand it in rural Wyoming, in a settlement 500 miles from anywhere. I can understand it north of the Arctic circle. But in most parts of the US? Naw. Not necessary.
On occasion, I’ve happened onto them here in the Eastern US, and in every case, they were just occasions for messing around with politics. No thanks.
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Phemie
Guest
The Church doesn’t quite agree with you.
Redemptionis Sacramentum says
How much less easily should they grant permission when there has already been one or two Masses that day!
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CaptFun
Guest
Hi Poor Knight,
Phemies’ take is rather like mine - but when I tried to paste that post (with Phemies blue answers to points) the blue went away. So I’ll adopt Phemies method and use RED for mine.
I am a “Communion Service Leader” for the Diocese of Orange, bringing Sunday Communion to a few Catholic Children at the County Home (not a jail, yet part of Detention Ministry). This is a bit different from presiding at a parish’s altar. We have a box with a pyx (and Eucharist from a mass at a local parish), the readings of the day, a crucifix and other items to convert a common table to a working “altar” (even though it is not a mass).
I play music to support the Service most weeks, preside about once per month. We do have one woman who also presides about as often AND once per month a priest does say Mass for the four or five kids we get.
These “kids” aged between 7 - 17 would otherwise not have Sunday worship as the facility will not bus them to mass. And SINCE it is SUNDAY we do all the Sunday readings as well as distribute the Eucharist (so that “the kids” get as MUCH of the (Mass-like) WORSHIP as they can). We were trained, commissioned and are instructed by the Diocese (which otherwise doesn’t do many “Communion Services” led by lay folks).
The parish in question may have opted to do what they did so that people could still receive the Eucharist (
) rather than cancel it due to the absence of any priests.
I share some of the other posters’ concerns that such an occasional thing might become
the norm; confusion might ensue; or (God forbid!) the lay minister might prove to be more popular than the local priest (to name a few dangers).
That said …
Phemies’ take is rather like mine - but when I tried to paste that post (with Phemies blue answers to points) the blue went away. So I’ll adopt Phemies method and use RED for mine.
I am a “Communion Service Leader” for the Diocese of Orange, bringing Sunday Communion to a few Catholic Children at the County Home (not a jail, yet part of Detention Ministry). This is a bit different from presiding at a parish’s altar. We have a box with a pyx (and Eucharist from a mass at a local parish), the readings of the day, a crucifix and other items to convert a common table to a working “altar” (even though it is not a mass).
I play music to support the Service most weeks, preside about once per month. We do have one woman who also presides about as often AND once per month a priest does say Mass for the four or five kids we get.
These “kids” aged between 7 - 17 would otherwise not have Sunday worship as the facility will not bus them to mass. And SINCE it is SUNDAY we do all the Sunday readings as well as distribute the Eucharist (so that “the kids” get as MUCH of the (Mass-like) WORSHIP as they can). We were trained, commissioned and are instructed by the Diocese (which otherwise doesn’t do many “Communion Services” led by lay folks).
The parish in question may have opted to do what they did so that people could still receive the Eucharist (
) rather than cancel it due to the absence of any priests.I share some of the other posters’ concerns that such an occasional thing might become
the norm; confusion might ensue; or (God forbid!) the lay minister might prove to be more popular than the local priest (to name a few dangers).
That said …
Ok I’ve read a few things here about communion services but I still have a lot of questions especially since I just attended one.
Here’s what, specifically, I had questions about:
Was any of what I’ve listed wrong or right? How bad of infractions were they - if any? What should I do about it, if anything? < Very humble sincere looking questions these.
- There was no announcement that what I thought was going to be a daily mass, had been changed to a communion service. That’s happened to me too. I went to communion anyway. But it didn’t feel like Mass (because it wasn’t).
- The “Head of pastoral ministry” - a woman - was leading it As I mentioned, a woman can lead such a service. Given the “controversy” surrounding “women priests” this would be more jarring in a parish church than in the Children’s Home foyer where our “Lily” presides once per month.
- She was dressed in an Alb < Proper. They gave me an Alb when I completed my training. It is a vestment of sorts, and distinguishes the presider of the Communion Service and establishes “Sacred space.” Some of the others who preside don’t wear theirs (feel uncomfortable) but I find when I put mine on I am more reverent and serious and worshipful. And since the vestment wasn’t my idea … obedient too.
- She lead us in - basically - a full Liturgy of the Word, including Gospel (I thought only ordained could read the Gospel in an official service) The readings being the same for the faithful who came expecting them along with Communion seems proper too. There are some priestly prayers we CSLs are not to say, others Deacons only might say when they preside. When I preside only I read the Gospel - other readings are read by those attending or the other (non-presiding that day) leaders.
- A Lay person from the audience said the “homily” (also female) It’s called a reflection when done by a lay person. We do this each week. Usually it is the presider’s job. We had one CSL who would preside but would defer to me to do the reflection (Spanish was that CSLs first language). I did it so that our little congregation would have SOME reflection instead of none.
- The ‘leader’ - for lack of a better phrase - sat in the deacons chair by the altar We don’t have THIS problem. But if I was asked to do a Communion Service in my parish - I probably WOULD, but would want some pointers as to what to do and what to avoid in areas like this. Since I’m male it wouldn’t look like a feminist takeover of some sort at least
uch: Actually the term "leader" is what is written on our approved sheets for the presiders. The other terms are “Response” or “All”.
- She lead us in the Our Father and took up a possition behind the alter with the outstreatched hand possition the priest usually does Leading the OF is OK. They taught us to use the Orans posture when praying - doesn’t make one a priest - nor was she accruing to herself the priest’s role (necessarily, I’m not saying these legit things couldn’t ***be done badly, ***by a woman OR a layman).
- She elevated the host and said “This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world…” again from behind the alter She should. The Eucharist being already “there” doesn’t mean Jesus should not be held up for proper worship. Now a layperson who led an offertory and prayed over unconsecrated bread and wine - THAT would clearly be wrong.
- She blessed us in “the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” at the end - my understanding is only Priests are suposed to bless in an official service; hence the no blessings by Extraordinary Ministers… Not sure what happened. Lay people, even commissioned ones can’t give a priestly blessing … but the sign of the cross is deference to God and quite a good thing. This might have been an infraction … or OK. But it seems the distractions got your mind off Christ perhaps. Were you worried that the Eucharist wasn’t the Eucharist because you didn’t see it confected by a priest in a mass?
- I was very uncomfortable about the whole thing and I know the Lay have a “sence of the Faith” hence why I’m taking it here. It’s wise you’re asking about it in a good place. The best?
Uncomfortable can be just a feeling - reverence for the Mass and the Eucharist though, is nothing to apologize for.
We should always keep our eyes on Jesus first. But you are not wrong to question things, and hopefully this substitution was an exception and not a growing trend in your parish. You might let your parish know how you feel. If no one tells them the situation remains … at least uncomfortable to some. More info on coming “services” sooner; advice to presiders; correction of infractions, good can come from that. Side-effects: hurt feelings, possibly looking like a crank to some, or getting recruited to DO a Communion Service yourself might happen.
I confess to not being the best Communion Service Leader I can be too. When I elevate the host (as your EM did) I do so from my knees and ask all present to do it then too.
We have no instruction telling me to. But “every knee shall bow …” to Jesus in the end - and so I elected to put it into our service. It’s the only time we kneel together at our Communion Service … though I always genuflect at our “altar” to the Eucharist before I begin the formal service.
Thank you and God Bless
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iloveangels
Guest
You mean the Diocese of Orange doesn’t care if these kids actually make it to mass or not? Is that what you’re telling me?Hi Poor Knight,
Phemies’ take is rather like mine - but when I tried to paste that post (with Phemies blue answers to points) the blue went away. So I’ll adopt Phemies method and use RED for mine.
I am a “Communion Service Leader” for the Diocese of Orange, bringing Sunday Communion to a few Catholic Children at the County Home (not a jail, yet part of Detention Ministry). This is a bit different from presiding at a parish’s altar. We have a box with a pyx (and Eucharist from a mass at a local parish), the readings of the day, a crucifix and other items to convert a common table to a working “altar” (even though it is not a mass).
I play music to support the Service most weeks, preside about once per month. We do have one woman who also presides about as often AND once per month a priest does say Mass for the four or five kids we get.
These “kids” aged between 7 - 17 would otherwise not have Sunday worship as the facility will not bus them to mass. And SINCE it is SUNDAY we do all the Sunday readings as well as distribute the Eucharist (so that “the kids” get as MUCH of the (Mass-like) WORSHIP as they can). We were trained, commissioned and are instructed by the Diocese (which otherwise doesn’t do many “Communion Services” led by lay folks).
The parish in question may have opted to do what they did so that people could still receive the Eucharist (
I share some of the other posters’ concerns that such an occasional thing might become
the norm; confusion might ensue; or (God forbid!) the lay minister might prove to be more popular than the local priest (to name a few dangers).
That said …
I
iloveangels
Guest
Yeah, the Diocese of Erie is a great resource? NOT.
And what they do is supposed to apply to people outside the Diocese of Erie? NOT.
This is all just a bunch of conjecture at this point.
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iloveangels
Guest
So, CaptFun,
What you’re really telling me is that the Diocese of Orange doesn’t actually care if these kids ever really make it to mass or not, right?
What you’re really telling me is that the Diocese of Orange doesn’t actually care if these kids ever really make it to mass or not, right?
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Phemie
Guest
You seem to be doing exactly what we were taught to do, although we do it at the church. Just one comment, and it’s about the term ‘preside’. We are instructed in Redemptionis Sacramentum, not to apply that term to a lay person.
That is why, in my parish, the person who is the main Leader of Prayer does not do the Communion Rite, which is always done by an EMCH.
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CaptFun
Guest
Not at all. Sorry you got that impression. The Children’s Home lets groups come in to do services, and individually sometimes kids are released to their folks or relatives or foster parents (for the day or for good) at which time they can go to mass.
On Sunday at 9:30 am when the facility allows an hour for worship on site - priests aren’t that available for such a small group. We do have one priest who can do it once per month. OH … Wednesday nights from 6 to 7 we have a Bible Study (no communion) which is far less formal - BUT we look at the readings for Sunday so that the young people understand the scriptures better (hearing them twice in a short period).
I was recruited to BEGIN a Catholic presence there. There had been nothing. The Juvenile Hall Chaplain (now a Deacon) began it and we tried to get priests when we could.
Some days NO kids show. They get released. Sick. Other stuff. In any case we have to be the smallest ministry in the Diocese - and sparing a priest on Sunday who might serve hundreds at a parish or scores at the prison (next door where EVERYBODY comes who can I’m told) could be a curious use of resources … or is it priorities.
The kids we get are mostly unchurched. Many baptised Catholics who haven’t had their first communions; a few who receive and other kids (we invite anyone who’d like to come - of course not giving them communion) etc. The young people don’t stay at this facility very long, it’s sort of a swinging door, so we don’t get much of a chance to train them in the sacraments HERE (whereas ironically at Juvenile Hall which gets more troubled kids - they stay longer and can be trained for Baptism, Communion, Confession even Confirmation).
Still I’m glad we have something. AND what a something! The Holy Eucharist (and worship of God on the Lord’s Day, a family feeling for those children and young adults who are AWAY from theirs). Though it can be “saving one starfish at a time” I think the Diocese is doing well to continue it. If the Bishop wanted to give 61 year old me a quick ordination to make things more “kosher” I’d consider it. Lol.
My Father spoke of attending Mass said on the hood of a Jeep during World War II. Our circumstances are less than ideal circumstantially as well.
There MAY be a better way to do things. This is what is allowed now. And most of the restrictions have to do with the County facility and not the Diocese.
This is probably a lot MORE than you ever wanted to know about our mini - stry (huh?!)
By the way - I’ve seen weekday Communion Services at Rest Homes and such which are REALLY short. Maybe a reading, but Communion distributed pretty close to right away. It may be like that at Hospitals too. I know Fulton Sheen took communion to hospital beds of Catholics, and I don’t think he said a full mass each time he distributed communion. Not ideal - but joining Jesus to His children in the best way possible beats a shrug of the shoulders and benign neglect.
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CaptFun
Guest
Thanks for that Phemie. We are called Communion Service Leaders. When asked about our schedules we sometimes ask one another “who’s scheduled to preside?” Some of the paperwork we have has a column marked P - so this can be confusing. Sometimes Father “presides” as the celebrant of the Mass. The column probably should say** L for leader** at that. Thanks.
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babochka
Guest
The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts isn’t equivalent to a Communion service, nor is it for the same purpose. It is Vespers with a Communion service, but it is conducted by a priest. Its closest equivalent in the western church would be the Good Friday service, when the whole Church does not celebrate the Eucharist to commemorate Christ in the tomb.
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CaptFun
Guest
I am reminded of the story of St. Tarcisius, one of the Church’s youngest martyrs. And … Communion Service assistant?
ewtn.com/library/mary/tarcis.htm
When pagan Rome was persecuting the Church the Eucharist was smuggled to prisoners.
Tarcisius, who was a young child (12 years old) and acolyte, was given the task (in the absense of Deacons who’d been doing it) of delivering (and distributing?) consecrated Eucharist to … the jailed Christian prisoners about to die.
The delivery was not to a priest (or Tarcisius could have transported mere bread and wine). Because it was the Eucharist Tarcisius resisted showing some older bigger boys what he was hiding in his cloak. He was beaten to death but did not give up the Eucharist.
This makes me wonder if the idea of a “communion service” (in emergency situations) is rather ancient. It would seem so. Details of who would have gotten Tarcisius’ parcel (pyx?) aren’t given.
He was too young (one would THINK!) to distribute communion - other than to deliver it all to the proper adult. Hmm. Then too he was an acolyte (altar boy? More?) and at age 12 sometimes boys were considered men back then. Think Bar Mitzvahs and Jesus teaching in the temple. Interesting.
There is a great distinction between emergencies and inconveniences – but* (while my heart is with those who worry that too many novel substitutions too often for ever more trivial reasons regarding the Eucharist and Mass is to be guarded against)* I will support the local Church arbiters in the matter of providing the faithful with the Eucharist even in the absence of priests if they so rule.
I realize I might err by being too zealous in opposition, too slothful in my lukewarmness in maintaining high standards, or too elated in every novelty that comes down the pike when it involves the awesome matters of the Most Holy Eucharist, “Feeding His Sheep,” and the problem of Holy Worship under less than ideal circumstances. But …
"I won’t think about that now … I’ll go crazy if I do … after all … Tomorrow … is another DAY!" – Scarlett O’Hara :tanning:
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