Communion Standing or Kneeling?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Caesar517
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I care not whether one kneels, or stands. I am more concerned about people who leave early. To be honest, when I was younger I used to make this mistake so I am not guiltless here, but now that I understand better I have stopped.
 
I don’t think that you’re going to get a defense. One of the wonderful things about being the Vatican is that you don’t have to explain yourself if you don’t want to do so. We have to get away from the idea that the Vatican should explain something.
I was wondering if any Church authority had a defence for Romans changing to this practice. An apologia pro CITH. What revelation happened in the 70’s to justify allowing it?
 
I’m doubly sure Moses never stood before God in the Burning Bush
Read the text. There’s nothing whatsoever in the text to support this. Rather, the biblical account tells us that Moses did stand before God, who told him to remove his shoes, because the ground upon which he was STANDING was holy ground. I believe that you are reading into the text (eisegesis) your own culturally/contextually determined notions of what constitutes reverence for God.
 
I was under the impression the practice of “intinction” was expressly prohibited.
 
I was wondering if any Church authority had a defence for Romans changing to this practice. An apologia pro CITH. What revelation happened in the 70’s to justify allowing it?
I’m not trying to be sarcastic . . . please don’t think that I am. The truth is that the Holy See has never made it a policy to explain itself. Most of the time, an apologia would be forthcoming from theologians. That’s their role in the Church, to shed light on faith questions. It’s not really the job of the ecclesial authorities. The role of the ecclesial authorities is to teach and to govern.

Because this is not an issue of morals or doctrine, the Roman Curia, especially the Sacred Congregation for the Faith, will always graciously bow out of offering explanations. Its role is to observe these developments and identify those what are in conflict with either faith or morals.

When it comes to matters of discipline, it’s really up to the pertinent congregation to regulate, but not to explain or defend. In this case, that would be the Congregation for Divine Worship. They have done their part. The bishops have started something, with or without permission. The CDW has looked at it a declared that it’s not a violation.

Here is where things get a little confusing. Sometimes, things begin illegally, meaning that it was never authorized. Once the Congregation for the Faith gives it either a nod of appoval or decides that it’s not worth its attention, the Congregation for Divine Worship must then decide whether it wants to legalize it or engage in a battle of wills with the bishops. Generally, the Congregation will not engage in such a battle if there is nothing immoral or heretical to battle. If it’s just a matter of reformatting the law so that the largest number of people are covered by the law, they will take this course.

It is important for us to remember that the Roman Curia does not exist to micromanage the universal Church. Each sacred congregation and department exists to lend support to the local churches (dioceses) and to resolve conflicts. However, the popes have always had the custom of allowing these questions to be resolved at the local level. In the past, there was even less intervention with local dioceses than there is today. It’s hard to believe, but one of the results of Vatican II was a greater collaboration and closer work between the diocesan bishops and the Holy See. This was unheard of before Pope Paul VI. Bishops governed as supreme leaders in their own jurisdictions, abbots and religious superiors in their jurisdictions, and the Eastern Patriarchs in their own.

If the question is a moral one or doctrinal one, such as is the case with abortion, women’s ordination, same-sex marriage, social justice, then the Holy See will step in. Either the Holy Father or one of the Congregations, acting in his name, will intervene. Other than that, the most you will get will be an occasional commentary from someone such as Cardinal Arinze.

There, is an interesting issue. Everytime Cardinal Arinze has been asked about these questions, he answers and those who like his answer run with it as if it were law. The poor man is put into a tight spot. He is simply answering a question, giving his opinion. He is not speaking authoritatively. When he speaks as the Prefect, he does so through written documents, not through interviews. Whatever he says at an interview is not meant to be taken as a verdict or ruling. It is what it is, Cardinal Arinze speaking, not the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Please just clarify. Do you believe that those Eastern Christians whose liturgical tradition is to stand at celebrations of the Eucharist are being “haughty people” in following their liturgical tradition?
Hello Ryan;

Please read my last post again. Did I say, accuse or embellish anything to accuse my Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters were doing something wrong.

Please don’t read into something to bring argument that serves no purpose.
I was trying to bring attention to Reverence in my post (“Most of which had to do with Western Churches”). You obviously missed my intention.

And as for Moses before the Burning Bush…yes he was standing as scripture states.
Scripture makes no mention what his gesture was after he removed his sandals.

Put yourself before Almighty God today in a similar situation as Moses.
Would you arrogantly stand before God or would you fall flat on your face in fear and awe?

I can’t speak for you…as for me I’d have my head buried in the sand too fearful to even dare look.

Peace
Chris
 
Hello Ryan;

Please read my last post again. Did I say, accuse or embellish anything to accuse my Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters were doing something wrong.

Please don’t read into something to bring argument that serves no purpose.
I was trying to bring attention to Reverence in my post (“Most of which had to do with Western Churches”). You obviously missed my intention.

And as for Moses before the Burning Bush…yes he was standing as scripture states.
Scripture makes no mention what his gesture was after he removed his sandals.

Put yourself before Almighty God today in a similar situation as Moses.
Would you arrogantly stand before God or would you fall flat on your face in fear and awe?

I can’t speak for you…as for me I’d have my head buried in the sand too fearful to even dare look.

Peace
Chris
But why do you make the supposition that if I, or Moses, or whoever were to stand before God, that it necessarily would be an act of arrogance? That is based in your own ideas as to what does and does not constitute reverence. There is no universal law that one must fall flat on one’s face if one is to show fear and awe when confronted by God, although I would certainly recognize that as a perfectly reasonable way in which some cultures or individuals would demonstrate their fear and awe of God.

As to my question, to me it seemed perfectly reasonable, since you stated “Who are we haughty people to stand before God” and in no way qualified it as being limited to Roman Catholics, it seemed to me to be reasonable to ask you to clarify. I rather suspected that you were talking primarily about you own Roman Catholic contex, but I wasn’t sure. Notice that in my post, I asked you to for clarification. I never stated that you accused Eastern Catholics or Eastern Orthodox of anything. And no, I did not “obviously miss” your intention about bringing attention to the issue of reverence. It is clearly evident throughout this thread that you are concerned about showing reverence towards God in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
 
As an Eastern Catholic that attends the Mass with my Latin husband, it is proper to kneel with the congregation as part of that community, and I do so. We humble ourselves before God. “Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church …”

However, when I attend the Divine Liturgy, I follow the words of the Holy Anaphora:
“Let us stand well. Let us stand in awe. Let us be attentive, that we may present the holy offering in peace.” And before Communion: “Approach with the fear of God, faith, and love.” We believe, as the Priest says: “You have made us worthy once again of Your heavenly and immortal Mysteries”, that God brings us to him as his children, not servants.

Each Liturgy has its own way of sacrifice and I appreciate and love them both.
 
In the Roman rite and in the West, kneeling, at reception of Communion, has a precise meaning. It’s an act of humility.

In the West, a man might kneel before a king, or to be knighted, or to ask for a woman’s hand in marriage. It’s a formal, submissive act.

I don’t know what it would mean in the East or when, or if, it’s used in Eastern rites at all. I don’t think that’s pertinent to the Roman rite, anyway. Or are we rubric-shopping?

Making drastic changes and constant small changes invites another problem: it implies that what was changed was wrong and that change is normal. So your local pastor adds his little wrinkle, it spreads and then you get to a point where it starts to look silly, to people who turn up for the first time. And to connoisseurs.

Of course, it also invites the possibility that it can all change back, quite quickly 😉
 
In the Roman rite and in the West, kneeling, at reception of Communion, has a precise meaning. It’s an act of humility.

In the West, a man might kneel before a king, or to be knighted, or to ask for a woman’s hand in marriage. It’s a formal, submissive act.

I don’t know what it would mean in the East or when, or if, it’s used in Eastern rites at all. I don’t think that’s pertinent to the Roman rite, anyway. Or are we rubric-shopping?

Making drastic changes and constant small changes invites another problem: it implies that what was changed was wrong and that change is normal. So your local pastor adds his little wrinkle, it spreads and then you get to a point where it starts to look silly, to people who turn up for the first time. And to connoisseurs.

Of course, it also invites the possibility that it can all change back, quite quickly 😉
I agree that in the West, kneeling is a sign of reverence. I disagree that change means that something is bad or wrong. Change can mean many things. Look at those religious communities that have never knelt while everyone around them was kneeling. They didn’t stop kneeling because it was bad. These go back to the early Middle Ages. There were other reasons for standing, reasons that were as good as the reason for kneeling.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top