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O.S.Luke
Guest
I think the tent you are erecting is as exclusive as those you think do not belong under it. Part of inclusivity is tolerance - even for those whom you do not agree with.
- Status
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Roy5
Guest
Three points.
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(1) As I recall it, the World Council member churches must profess Christ as Lord and Savior.
(2) The World Council votes on applicants. This certainly would keep out the Klan and such. In fact the World Council contributed heavily to the end of apartheit in South Africa. I think that Bishop Tutu, the famed Anglican Bishop from there, was or may still be one of the six presidents of the World Council. The Unitarians applied to join the (US) National Council of Churches (which in turn is affiliated with the WCC) and their application was denied because they do not accept that Christ is Lord and Savior.
(3) The World Council certainly would welcome the Roman Catholic Church into membership, but the Catholic Church has chosen not to join. Its position, after all, is that every other church not under the Papacy is wrong, that the CC alone has the essentials of spiritual truth. I don't recall all the details, but I believe that the Vatican has sent observers. Cardinal Dulles comes to mind as possibly one of them???
I guess I have trouble understanding why the concept of the 'big tent' seems so alienate or problematic to some posters. Frankly, today's Catholic Church unwittingly has a quasi-big tent quality in that millions of the faithful reject some basic teachings of the church. I read the magazine US Catholic regularly, and it carries polls of Catholics in many issues. It amazes me what high percentages take issue with the church. I find it praiseworthy. A spirit of independence is evident among the Catholic laity.
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PRmerger
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This brings up several questions:
- Where does this World Council get its criteria? Does Scripture provide us with this criteria, or is it man-made? I certainly am not familiar with any verses which would indicate what is an “essential” doctrine for a Christian.
- Are you, Roy, ok with the World Council excuding the Klan? If so, why? What about their “independent thinking” bars them from acceptance into Christianity? As an advocate of “creative thinking” you ought to be applauding their views, yes?
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Roman_Catholic_1
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PRmerger
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I am merely curious about this big tent systemology. I don’t understand how it works, what it’s based on and why you, who advocate “independent thinking” defer to the authority of this World Council.
Please tell me more!
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Roy5
Guest
PRMerger
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The World Council, rather like an ecumenical council would and should, discusses and votes on admission criteria. There would be those who believe that the Holy Spirit plays a role in Council decisions. I'm not sure I believe that. I do believe in Holy Spirit inspiration but have some resistance to claiming it. So many mental cases or phonies have done that over the centuries, But, after all, the early council decided all sorts of things by majority vote, including creeds and heresies.
The WCC has chosen to use "acknowledgment of Christ as Lord as Savior" as the required belief. This still permits a very 'big tent' when, for example, you have Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostalists and Greek Orthodox under the same tent. Etc. Why is it, after all, so essential that all Christians agree on various doctrines and liturgies when they agree on Christ? Methodists, for example, traditionally held Arminian views, say, on free will, but that didn't alienate them from Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Calvinists. In Canada, in fact, way back in 1925, the Armenian Methodists joined with Calvinist Congregationalists and Presbyterians to form the United Church of Canada. As John Wesley said: "If you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together" (or words to that effect).
The Klan is opposed to the basic principles of Christianity (for example, I John 4:20-21). They wouldn't apply because they strongly oppose the World Council, and they wouldn't be voted in if they did apply. Would the Catholic Church accept a 'chapter' of the Mafia as a recognized part of some local parish? Back in my youthj I was jailed twice in the deep South in the civil rights days ('60s) so I know whereof I speak and have quite strong convictions in that area of discussion. We couldn't get any Catholic priests to go with us in those early '60s.
That was before Vatican II, of course, and priests were forbidden to join with Protestants in such things. Shortly thereafter, the word came from Vatican II and overnight priests were joining local clergy associations, Catholics were worshiping with Protestants in Protestant churches, etc. Was it really sinful - as Catholics had been told - to worship in a Protestant church before that?. I recall going with our childhood friends next door to mass, but they weren't allowed to come to our church for anything. That was a source of considerable tension and division in many small communities like ours. Thank you, John XXIII!
God bless people of every creed, color, and country.
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Roy5
Guest
Let me add that I don’t defer to the World Council, as you suggest. It is in no way comparable to the Papacy or the Vatican. It is an umbrella organization which brings Christians together to discuss matters of faith as well as cooperate together in the areas of humanitarian and other concerns. Some Roman Catholics probably find this difficult to understand since they have such a centralized, autocratic form of church government. Protestant polity varies. Some denominations have bishops, with a lot or little power. Some focus on presbyteries. The Congregationalists, Baptists and others have little if any hierarchy beyond the local church.
I don't believe that God has even a whit of concern about different forms of church government. He wants faithful servants of his gospel, which can be Catholics or Methodists, Lutherans or Episcopalians, Baptists or Pentecostalists. Among my favorites are the Quakers who have very little hierarchy, almost no liturgy, don't even have baptism or communion (as I recall), but they are committed to peace, serving others, etc.
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PRmerger
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Thank you for the info, Roy, on the WCC.
And where do you get what these “basic principles of Christianity”? Scripture give us no clue how one would determine what’s “basic” and what’s secondary.
What early council? Are you talking WCC here?
Because the Truth matters. Because we are called to love God with our entire MIND, heart, soul and strength. Understanding doctrines is the MIND part.
Yet they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So by your own criteria they belong in this big tent, yes?
And where do you get what these “basic principles of Christianity”? Scripture give us no clue how one would determine what’s “basic” and what’s secondary.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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“Last summer, Archbishop Joseph E. Ritter — an Indianan who was installed as head of the archdiocese last October — ordered that all Catholic schools in St. Louis admit Negroes.”— The New York Times, September 27, **1947 **
One of Ritter’s first acts still marks his tenure as archbishop with its courage and decency. In 1946, his first year in St. Louis, **he instructed all pastors in the archdiocese to end racial segregation in the parochial schools. **The U.S. Supreme Court would not take the same action with the nation’s public schools until 1954.
Source here
Note: 1946 was PRIOR to Vatican II.
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PRmerger
Guest
March 9, 1965:
Referring to the recent violence and Reverend Martin Luther King’s plea to church leaders for help, Cardinal Ritter asked the Commission, “What are you going to do about Selma?”
"We’re going to go there," replied Father Doyle.
Within hours he had called Sister Ernest Marie. She realized it would be an act of civil disobedience, but “it was the thing to do and it was the right time.”
Teaching philosophy at Fontbonne, was Sister Thomas Marguerite (Rosemary Flanigan). Since nuns were not allowed to travel alone, Sister Ernest Marie asked Sister Thomas Marguerite if she would go, too. Sister Thomas Marguerite said, “Show me the way.”
March 10, 1965:
Sister Thomas Marguerite’s account of that day is one of the most detailed available.
We landed at the airfield outside the Alabama town of 25,000 inhabitants, 57% of whom were Negroes…the car I was in drove through muddy back alleys past Negro dwellings unlike any I have seen even in St. Louis’ worst slums…the 12-car motorcade took us first to the Edmundite Mission, then to Brown Chapel.
**
The church service had begun when Father (Edward) O’Donnell led the six of us into Brown Chapel with the rest of the delegation.** There was no break in the singing of the hymns. I looked up for the first time into the faces of one of the most diversified groups I had ever seen. Sitting on the worn carpet of the aisle was an overall-clad Quaker, his beaver hat pulled over his ears. Sprinkled through the first few rows were well-dressed Harvard students who had marched to the courthouse between ranks of State troopers the previous day…clergymen in black, blue, and charcoal gray…and Jewish rabbis.
Sister Thomas Marguerite describes the speeches they heard in the next two and a half hours as well as each colorful speaker. They explained the history of the civil rights movement in Alabama and the strategies for non-violent protest.
The church was cleared and the marchers assembled outside, the St. Louisans leading and the six of us placed toward the front. A half-block away stood the lines of blue-helmeted State troopers, bearing Confederate-flag insignia on their uniforms, interspersed with the white-helmeted members of the posse. Mayor (Joe) Smitherman was there, too, flanked by Public Safety Director Wilson Baker and Sheriff Jim Clark.
As we moved toward them **I heard Father O’Donnell say, “Get the nuns in the middle with men on either side. **If they push from the rear, pull the nuns over to the curb.” That was my only moment of fear…
I heard the Reverend Mr. (Louis) Anderson ask if we could “march to our courthouse.” Mayor Smitherman answered: “You’ve had ample opportunity to become registered voters. There will be no marching…”
The minister asked if representatives from the group could bear witness to the decision that had brought them to Selma, and the Mayor agreed. Newsmen wedged between the two groups as one by one, first Sister Antona, then each of the others delivered their simple, minute-long addresses.
Both Sister Ernest Marie and Sister Thomas Marguerite remember standing behind Sister Antona as she bore witness.
When the speeches were finished, **Father Jerome of St. Nicholas Church, St. Louis, led us in prayer. ** We all joined in, finally, to recite the Our Father, and where the Roman Catholics stopped, the Protestants finished alone: “…for Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory…” We turned around, and in a spontaneous movement, linked hands and sang “We Shall Overcome.” I found myself holding the hand of a priest from St. Paul, and the hand of Sister Antona on the other side.
The sisters at the hospital had soup and bread ready for the visitors, and at 4pm, Sister Thomas Marguerite remembers, “we were aloft and headed home.” Source here.
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Roy5
Guest
PRMerger
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A few responses.
I know you're trying to bait me. You must be smart enough to know that the Klan doesn't belong in any reputable Christian organization. As I stated, the Council votes on who should be admitted.
As to Councils, I believe there have been 21 ecumenical councils, starting with Nicaea, going through Constantinople I, Ephesus, Chalcedon, up through Vatican I and II. Votes were taken at various councils on various issues. I don't have the details in my head but I do recall, for example, that at Vatican I the vote on papal infallibility was not unanimous and there was some splintering and I believe Old Catholic churches came forth. As I recall the Polish National Catholic Church was among them (we have several in this area with its large Polish population). The Pope at the time, of course, was the same Pius IX who issued the harshly anti-democratic "Syllabus of Errors" that led to much fear of Catholic intentions. My grandparents were among those who would quote it against Catholicism. They were converts in Quebec who moved to the USA partly because French-Canadian Protestants could face ostracism there over a century ago. Today Quebec is Catholic in name only, as only from 7-10% attend mass faithfully. I've heard this explained as a backlash against the control the church had exercises over the province for centuries.
Now as to civil rights, my statement remains accurate. In 1961 and 1962, just before Vatican II convened, we tried to enlist Catholic priests in Freedom Rides as well as working with Dr. King. They would respond that they weren't allowed to do that because cooperating with Protestants and Jews in such fashion was not permitted by the church. That was, of course, three years before Selma in 1965. By then most of the pioneering and most dangerous work had been done. This is not to minimize the contribution of those who marched at Selma, and we viewed those with appreciation but also as late-comers. Nuns, incidentally, were out front before priests, as frankly they are today in many respects. I presume that's why the Vatican is investigating them for possible heresy and such! And, as much as priests would not join us, some Catholic laity did, and their participation was also appreciated.
I was too young to recall Ritter with all that much clarity, but I have read enough history of the civil rights movement to know that he acted commendably in desegregating the New Orleans schools. My pointm however, was that the Catholic Church changed its policy radically after Vatican II re cooperating with Protestants. I remember some of our neighborhood Catholic kids who, when they got mad, would tell us we were going to hell because we weren't Catholic. Did they pick that up at parochial school or at home? When they passed by our church the priest had told them to cross the street, apparently so they would't be contaminated. There always are references to anti-Catholicism, and if that is/was aimed at Catholics as people it is/was abominable. But when and where I grew up anti-Protestantism is what registered much more with me. We did not agree with Catholicism, but we were told by my parents to respect the religion of others because we all worshiped the same God and sought to serve the same Christ.
My conclusion is that CAF appears to attract pre-Vatican-type Catholics in large numbers. Most Catholics I know are ecumenical. They participate in such ecumenical groups as Church Women United, founded by Protestants years ago, and now including a wide assortment of Christians. That's the way it should be. Let us have our differences, most of them handed down to us by our parents, but work and walk together in mutual respect as fellow Christians.
God bless people of every creed, color and country.
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PRmerger
Guest
Not at all, Roy. What I *am *trying to do is show you the absurdity of your statement regarding “creative thinking” and “independent thinking”. By your rationale, you ought to engage these Christian White Supremacists as creative, independent thinkers and include them into your Big Tent systemology.
By what criteria do you exclude them? Are they not independent thinkers?
I think you see the illogic of your position.
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Roy5
Guest
The Klan would be excluded because it is anti-Biblical, anti-Christian, racist and dispicable. I think those four reasons are sufficient, and there would be more.
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You are not foolish enough to believe that a 'big tent' means that you cooperate with people who peddle outrageous prejudice against other races or religions. The idea of a big tent assumes mutual respect.
The Catholic Church has moved forward on this since Vatican II. As I believe I said earlier, I recall in about 1963 when suddenly Catholic priests joined community clergy associations, Catholics began to join in community services at Thanksgiving and at other times, it was no longer a big sin for Catholics to worship in a Protestant church, there even were weddings with a priest and a minister co-officiating, Protestants no longer were required by the RCC to sign a paper promising to bring up children in that faith, Bible study groups formed with Catholic and Protestant members, etc. Even those Catholic playmates who said we were going to hell on occasion began to display a 'big tent' attitude toward Protestants. It was like a remarkable overnight revolution, for which we loved John XXIII and Paul VI. Incidentally I have seen four Popes - how many Catholics can say that? Pius XII at the Vatican when I was quite young, then Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, all in New York City.
Yes, I have followed Catholicism with particular interest and hope. As you must be aware by now, I am committed to ecumenism. The main resistance comes from two groups: the Catholic Church (not the people or all priests) and fundamentalist Protestants. Both groups are so thoroughly convinced that they alone have the full truth. In many ways they resemble one another, and I find it interesting that in visiting fundamentalist churches around here I have found them full of ex-Catholics, including some of their pastors. It's as though they need an authority to assure them that they embrace the truth.
Most fellow mainline Protestants that I know don't claim to have the full truth. We live by faith and not knowledge, as scripture suggests we do. We walk by faith and not by sight, also scriptural. We don't have a compulsion to understand this vast and mysterious and marvelous world. But we are ready to respect those who need such a religion even when we may take issue with it.
I probably should stop this dialogue, though I have hoped that it might serve to promote a better understanding between religions. Instead, it seems to only arouuse defensiveness and a certain amount of silliness.
God bless Catholics, Protestants, and people of every creed, color, and country. May religion truly become a bridge and not a barrier.
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PRmerger
Guest
Acknowledged.
It would seem, then, that your criteria for “independent thinking” and “creative thinking” is this: that which Roy5 finds acceptable.
It would be more intellectually honest to rename this “Big Tent Christianity” this: “Theology which Roy5 Finds Acceptable”.
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PRmerger
Guest
There are 3 priests, certainly representative of Catholic teaching on social justice, in my previous post (#110): ***I have no doubt Catholics–priests, nuns and laity–were part of the civil rights movement before, during and after Selma. *** :yup:
March 9, 1965:
Referring to the recent violence and Reverend Martin Luther King’s plea to church leaders for help, Cardinal Ritter asked the Commission, “What are you going to do about Selma?”
“We’re going to go there,” replied Father Doyle.
Within hours he had called Sister Ernest Marie. She realized it would be an act of civil disobedience, but “it was the thing to do and it was the right time.”
Teaching philosophy at Fontbonne, was Sister Thomas Marguerite (Rosemary Flanigan). Since nuns were not allowed to travel alone, Sister Ernest Marie asked Sister Thomas Marguerite if she would go, too. Sister Thomas Marguerite said, “Show me the way.”
March 10, 1965:
Sister Thomas Marguerite’s account of that day is one of the most detailed available.
We landed at the airfield outside the Alabama town of 25,000 inhabitants, 57% of whom were Negroes…the car I was in drove through muddy back alleys past Negro dwellings unlike any I have seen even in St. Louis’ worst slums…the 12-car motorcade took us first to the Edmundite Mission, then to Brown Chapel.
The church service had begun when Father (Edward) O’Donnell led the six of us into Brown Chapel with the rest of the delegation. There was no break in the singing of the hymns. I looked up for the first time into the faces of one of the most diversified groups I had ever seen. Sitting on the worn carpet of the aisle was an overall-clad Quaker, his beaver hat pulled over his ears. Sprinkled through the first few rows were well-dressed Harvard students who had marched to the courthouse between ranks of State troopers the previous day…clergymen in black, blue, and charcoal gray…and Jewish rabbis.
Sister Thomas Marguerite describes the speeches they heard in the next two and a half hours as well as each colorful speaker. They explained the history of the civil rights movement in Alabama and the strategies for non-violent protest.
The church was cleared and the marchers assembled outside, the St. Louisans leading and the six of us placed toward the front. A half-block away stood the lines of blue-helmeted State troopers, bearing Confederate-flag insignia on their uniforms, interspersed with the white-helmeted members of the posse. Mayor (Joe) Smitherman was there, too, flanked by Public Safety Director Wilson Baker and Sheriff Jim Clark.
As we moved toward them I heard Father O’Donnell say, “Get the nuns in the middle with men on either side. If they push from the rear, pull the nuns over to the curb.” That was my only moment of fear…
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
And yet when the Catholic Church makes this declaration against another they are called, “authoritative” and “dogmatic” by you, infringing on people’s “creative thinking”. Do you really need to be shown your double standard here? I agree with you in your judgements of the Klan, I just wonder what right you have to make such judgements, being as you don’t believe in ultimate truth…
Maybe your statement should read,* “my opinion is that they are anti-bilbical, anti-christian, racist and dispicable.” *Leave the final determinations to us, “authoritative dogmatists”
God bless you
J
jmcrae
Guest
We already have a “big tent” in which people of every race, color, and language have been gathering together to share core beliefs in common and express them in a variety of cultural forms, for nearly 2,000 years, now.
The WCC is an attempt to unite Protestantism under an identifiable belief system and moral code - something the Catholic Church actually started out with, right from the beginning, when Celts (aka Galatians), Romans, Greeks, Africans and Hebrews all joined together to hear the teachings of the Apostles and to eat the Body and Blood of Christ with them at Mass.
No one is preventing any Protestant, or any group of Protestants, from returning to their original Christian roots in the Catholic Church.
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Roy5
Guest
jmcrae
Code:
No offense intended, but you obviously know very little about the World Council of Churches. It was founded back in 1948 to bring together Christians of many different theologies and liturgies (with various Eastern Orthodox included), with no intent whatever to achieve Protestant unity in doctrine or ritual but instead a spirit of unity among fellow Christians regardless of their differences. Traditional Catholicism (not most Catholics I know) is so convinced that it alone has the fullness of spiritual truth that it exhibits an attitude of condescension and superiority toward other Christian communities. Protestant ministers are not offering legitimate communion, Protestant ministers are not properly ordained, Protestant congregations are not churches by ecclesial societies, etc. I hesitate to say this, but it will pay the price for such arrogance, and may be already with widespread rejection in so many formerly devoutly Catholic countries. Most people today are tired of religious bigotry and patronizing.
No church and no person alive today knows all that much about the deeper secrets of the universe. It was that great preacher of 60 years ago, Harry Emerson Fosdick, who said that "I can only believe in a God that I do not understand." We 'now see through a glass darkly'. Once we do know those secrets we all will be greatly surprised. With maybe 100 billion solar systems it takes a lot of pride for any of us to claim we know all that much. Again, we travel by faith and not by sight.
But I am aware that there are millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Muslims, and various others, who have a great need to feel that their faith is the one and only correct one. God bless them.
In fact, God bless people of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge instead of a barrier.- Status