Communion

[twldr2002]

Only the Catholic Church and others that it is in Communion with have the Eucharist, the true living body and blood of Jesus, what a gift and a responsibility for all those who receive the Lord in a state of grace.

All other Christian faiths that offer communion… it truly is symbolic in nature… as Catholic’s we need to rejoice and be in awe as to what the Lord is willing to do for us… to come to us in body and blood so that we may have life everlasting…

John 7:1-53 says…

I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my Flesh is real food and my Blood is real drink. Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood remains in me, and I in him.

So what more needs to be said… we Catholic’s are so blessed to receive Jesus for the reasons as stated by Jesus himself above. So other faiths can think what they want, we have Jesus… in ways that no others can or ever will on this earth.

Thanks be to God!

Paul

 

[ChadS]

I’m a little upset that neither Roy or ChadS has taken me to task in my latest post… #15 (I think)

Don’t worry Brother Wade, I didn’t forget about you. Other duties and resposibilities called.

You have stated on here that the United Methodist Church believes in the “real” presence of Christ in their bread and grape juice. Can you please tell me how it is “truly present in Communion”? In what way or sense is Christ present? I need to know more than just simply claiming Christ’s presence is “real.”

I noticed that “This Holy Mystery” was published in 2004. I was out of the UMC by that point. This is the first I’ve heard of it and if such a monumental chance in UM theology had occurred I’m sure my parents, family and relatives would’ve mentioned something. I find the language in that document to be less than precise and allows any interpretation you want. I doubt that UM theology has changed and that my “poor catechisis” I received growing up is most likely the dominant understanding of communion still practiced in the church.

Roman_Catholic:

I say this with all due respect to Chad and you; as far as the Methodist Church is concered; you’re both wrong.

I guess I must’ve been asleep for nearly 30 years and everybody else in my congregation and all of our ministers must’ve been asleep too. All these things you’ve quoted come from the “Table Service” in the back of the Hymnal. It is formulaic wording that will most likely be found in any protestant church. Just because a minister utters what Catholics understand as the words of consecration does not mean in any way they really believe they are transforming ordinary bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ in any real and present way.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I doubt that UM theology has changed and that my “poor catechisis” I received growing up

There is no need to act that way Chad. You stated that you had never seen a Methodist who believed that there was any presence other than a spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. All I said is that, with my reading of what the Methodist church teaches, perhaps they have poor Catechesis:

Perhaps Methodist Catechesis is as poor as the Catholic Church’s in that there are people running around not knowing what their Church actually teaches

If I am wrong then I am wrong and I apologize but there is still no reason to get juvenile about it. I never made any comment about you personally or your catechesis.

I guess I must’ve been asleep for nearly 30 years and everybody else in my congregation and all of our ministers must’ve been asleep too.

I don’t know? All I am showing you are documents from the UMC.

You still never answered how someone is supposed to read this:

Jesus Christ, who “is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being” (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus’ name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.

My position is that the Methodist Church teaches that Christ is truly present in the elements of the bread and wine and that they teach that it is not just a “rememberance”:

Jesus Christ… is truly present in Holy Communion… it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.

Please explain it to me? I understand that the Methodist Church doesn’t teach that the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Christ (transub), this is something that you and Roy said I said. I never said that. I am saying that, while they deny Transub, the Methodist Church still teaches that Christ is truly present through the elements of the bread and wine. Perhaps you can show me where I have errored?

By the way thanks for the previous link. I looked through it and still did not find anywhere that contradicts what I have said the Methodist Church teaches.

God bless you

 

[ChadS]

Roman_Catholic I apologize for my last comments, they were not very charitable of me.

If the UMC teaches a “real” presense in their Communion then I am not aware of it. In my experiences, I have not come across any others that believe in anything more than a spiritual presence. As for their understanding of a “real” presence they also reject transub. and consub. as far as I know. I don’t know where this leaves us then.

ChadS

 

[ML561]

I was raised in the Methodist church and left as a young adult to become Catholic. Since then I have always had questions…Why in many Protestant denominations is Communion celebrated so infrequently? In the Methodist church in which I grew up, Communion was held every three months. Also, why only grape juice in some churches? I must admit that even though I did actually go through Confirmation in the Methodist church, I was about 13 years old and probably not paying much attention. Was John Wesley a temperance advocate? And why the large variation in the type of bread used in Communion…I’ve seen everything from homemade loaves which the people tore pieces from with their hands to small soup crackers. My understanding as a Catholic is that only unleavened bread should be used for the Eucharist as that was the bread used at the Passover meal which Jesus celebrated with His disciples at the Last Supper. Thank you and peace be with all of you.

 

[Roy5]

A few responses.

 1. I believe that many, probably most, Methodists would go along with most of my points on #6.  

 2. I have known numerous Methodists, have been active in Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregational churches over the years, and I have never met a Methodist who believes in the real presence if one means that in some special way Christ is within the elements. There may be a few ministers who feel that way, most of whom are probably in the Order of St. Luke which is probably as representative of Methodism as Catholics for a Free Choice are representative of Catholicism.

 3. It is important to remember that mainline Protestant churches, unlike traditionalist Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants, tolerate considerable difference of opinion on many issues. I'm sure that communion means different things to different Methodists. Fine. I like the freedom to think for one's self. I suspect that none of us knows very much when it comes to the deeper mysteries of life and our universe, and the Bible says as much. Some groups, like traditional Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants, become convinced that they alone have access to the essential truth. That's their privilege. But others among us can disagree.

 4. Grapejuice is used because Wesley was concerned about the ill effect of alcohol in 18th century England. How many millions today are handicapped by alcohol? How many thousands die every year from alcohol-related accidents or diseases caused or accentuated by alcohol? But the churches serve grapejuice because that permits alcoholics who can be set off by wine to participate in communion, as Protestants are offered both the cup and bread.

 5. I know nothing in the Bible that requires unleavened bread for communion. That is required for Passover under the OT law, but there are numerous Old Testament laws that Christianity (and most modern-day Jews) reject. Re-read Ex. 21, Lev. 10, and Deut. 22-23 to find many examples. Methodists have traditionally come forward and kneeled to receive. However, sometimes Methodists use intinction, and in some larger Methodists churches the elements are passed through the pews. Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Baptists follow that procedure.

 6. The differences are clear in at least one respect. Catholicism believes in transubstantiation, and Eucharistic Adoration is making a comeback. Most Protestants respect such beliefs but regard them as unBiblical and, honestly, remnants of medieval-era superstition. Such teachings were in part responsible for The Reformation. 

  But, fortunately for all of us, God smiles upon all his children of every creed, color and country. It's religious arrogance and dogmatism that cause so many of the world's problems, even today. We need to respect one another and help make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[ChadS]

I was raised in the Methodist church and left as a young adult to become Catholic. Since then I have always had questions…Why in many Protestant denominations is Communion celebrated so infrequently? In the Methodist church in which I grew up, Communion was held every three months. Also, why only grape juice in some churches? I must admit that even though I did actually go through Confirmation in the Methodist church, I was about 13 years old and probably not paying much attention. Was John Wesley a temperance advocate? And why the large variation in the type of bread used in Communion…I’ve seen everything from homemade loaves which the people tore pieces from with their hands to small soup crackers. My understanding as a Catholic is that only unleavened bread should be used for the Eucharist as that was the bread used at the Passover meal which Jesus celebrated with His disciples at the Last Supper. Thank you and peace be with all of you.

I’m not sure how much Wesley was a temperance advocate but what Roy said makes perfect sense about his fears of alcohol.

That sort of thinking about alcohol is still pretty prevalent among the oldest members of the UM church, especially if they came from an EUB background. My mother’s grandmother was a member of the Women’s Christian Temperance Union way back and from what I’ve been told she also disapproved of other sinful pastimes like dancing and hated the “tools of the devil” like cards and dice.

My great aunt up to the day she died abhorred the idea of ministers even having a sip of beer. Our different ministers would have to sneak into the kitchen at the church Christmas partys held at other people’s houses just so the older ladies wouldn’t see them drinking. Of course many of those ideas are going to the wayside as the elderly start to pass on.

ChadS

 

[mangy_dog]

A few responses.

 1. I believe that many, probably most, Methodists would go along with most of my points on #6.  

 2. I have known numerous Methodists, have been active in Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregational churches over the years, and I have never met a Methodist who believes in the real presence if one means that in some special way Christ is within the elements. There may be a few ministers who feel that way, most of whom are probably in the Order of St. Luke which is probably as representative of Methodism as Catholics for a Free Choice are representative of Catholicism.

 3. It is important to remember that mainline Protestant churches, unlike traditionalist Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants, tolerate considerable difference of opinion on many issues. I'm sure that communion means different things to different Methodists. Fine. I like the freedom to think for one's self. I suspect that none of us knows very much when it comes to the deeper mysteries of life and our universe, and the Bible says as much. Some groups, like traditional Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants, become convinced that they alone have access to the essential truth. That's their privilege. But others among us can disagree.

 4. Grapejuice is used because Wesley was concerned about the ill effect of alcohol in 18th century England. How many millions today are handicapped by alcohol? How many thousands die every year from alcohol-related accidents or diseases caused or accentuated by alcohol? But the churches serve grapejuice because that permits alcoholics who can be set off by wine to participate in communion, as Protestants are offered both the cup and bread.

 5. I know nothing in the Bible that requires unleavened bread for communion. That is required for Passover under the OT law, but there are numerous Old Testament laws that Christianity (and most modern-day Jews) reject. Re-read Ex. 21, Lev. 10, and Deut. 22-23 to find many examples. Methodists have traditionally come forward and kneeled to receive. However, sometimes Methodists use intinction, and in some larger Methodists churches the elements are passed through the pews. Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Baptists follow that procedure.

 6. The differences are clear in at least one respect. Catholicism believes in transubstantiation, and Eucharistic Adoration is making a comeback. Most Protestants respect such beliefs but regard them as unBiblical and, honestly, remnants of medieval-era superstition. Such teachings were in part responsible for The Reformation. 

  But, fortunately for all of us, God smiles upon all his children of every creed, color and country. It's religious arrogance and dogmatism that cause so many of the world's problems, even today. We need to respect one another and help make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

Yes the “arrogance” and the “superstition”…

You like to get your shots in before handing out the olive branch.

You’re not fooling anyone in this Catholic Site.

 

[Brother_Wade]

I’m going to try to answer a couple of things that I remember being asked in previous posts… It was mentioned that in This Holy Mystery there seems to be a subustantial amount of subjective interpretation of Christ’s Real Presence. I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. I believe we can get too caught up in trying to explain in scientific or worldly understanding of real presence. I believe this is also the position of the UMC. That doesn’t mean we should all just believe what we want to believe. Christ is present in the bread and cup, and the presence is the presence of the Son which is different than the presence of the Holy Spirit, but also the same… See how this can become difficult when we try to define it in worldly terms. Not to mention: How can Jesus be 100% God and 100% man? I don’t know, but I know that is the truth.

As for grape juice becoming the norm, Dr. Welch was actually a Methodist that developed a way to keep the wine from becoming fermented and not spoiling specifically for use in communion. At first, his development was not well received by members within the congregation, and later became offered as well as actual wine. Over the years, it became the primary substance used.

It was also asked why some Protestants celebrate communion less frequently… It is because as Methodism spread to the US, there were not enough ordained clergy to preside. And, as Methodist Circuit Riders (Clergy on horseback) only made their way through the small spread out towns across the country, that made it necessary to only celebrate communion when they were present. John Wesley, the father of Methodism, was a strong advocate of frequent communion.

All that being said, I realize that the Methodist Church at the congregational level has welcomed members from other denominations, and watered down the teachings of the church to seem more accepting to others. And, I won’t deny that there were anti-Rome sentiments throughout much of the 50’s and 60’s which further diluted what the actual teachings of the church were. I would also suggest that many Methodists do not realize that the Roman Catholic Church and the United Methodist Church have been engaged in dialogue since the 60’s with the purpose of entering into full communion with each other. They probably also dont realize that the Catholics, Methodists, and Lutherans (ELCA)have signed the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith.

I know I included things other than strictly communion talk, but I wanted to emphasize that the UMC does teach, and always has the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Part of the reason that This Holy Mystery was written was to address some of the misconceptions about the sacrament that had entered the doors of the church throughout the centuries and move the members of the church to a more sacramental way of living.

 

[Brother_Wade]

Does anyone else think it’s a little bit funny that the only two Protestants on this thread are at odds with each other on the understanding of Holy Communion?

Or, is it sad?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Does anyone else think it’s a little bit funny that the only two Protestants on this thread are at odds with each other on the understanding of Holy Communion?

No not at all. There are a great deal of doctrines and beliefs that any two Protestants could find them selves at odds with each other over.

God bless

 

[O.S.Luke]

A few responses.
4. Grapejuice is used because Wesley was concerned about the ill effect of alcohol in 18th century England. How many millions today are handicapped by alcohol? How many thousands die every year from alcohol-related accidents or diseases caused or accentuated by alcohol? But the churches serve grapejuice because that permits alcoholics who can be set off by wine to participate in communion, as Protestants are offered both the cup and bread.

That would be incorrect. Grape juice was not introduced into the church until the 19th century - long after Wesley was dead. Wesley was concerned about distilled liquors and how exploitive rum trade was in England, but it would be inaccurate to say that Wesley was opposed to alcohol in general. Several of his notes, letters, and journal entries, in fact, say otherwise (he published tips about brewing ale). He also referred to wine as “the greatest of cordials.” Like all things, he preached moderation in food and drink.

Last year, the costs of gluttony and overeating surpassed alcoholism in America. We seem to have our acceptable sins.

 

[Roy5]

Roman Catholics (God bless them) need to understand that many Protestants can feel quite comfortable disagreeing with one another. One of my joys as a Protestant has been to discuss, often vigorously, different theological concepts without anyone saying: “You can’t believe that and be a Christian.” You find that narrow attitude primarily among traditional Catholics (not among most Catholics I know) and among fundamentalist Protestants. I believe in ‘big tent’ Christianity which allows and even smiles upon independent and creative and explorative thinking.

 Let's let the Methodist interpretation of communion rest. I simply repeat that only a handful of Methodists, mainly associated with the Order of St. Luke, believe in the 'real presence' if we're talking about the elements. As far as Christ's presence, I assume most Methodists would agree. "Lo, I am with you always...."

 There is a small group of Methodists who are eager to make Methodism a more liturgical, creedal, 'high church' denomination, more in line with Catholicism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism. They are the ones who are deep into theological distinctions and liturgical emphasis. Between the American Revolution and the Civil War the Methodists became the largest denomination in the USA. This was not because Circuit Riders roamed the countryside dressed in vestments, delivering canned prayers, reading prescribed scriptures, and focusing especially on communion. Methodists became so numerous because they had a dynamism that emphasized the presence of the Holy Spirit. They weren't called 'shouting Methodists' for nothing. As they became better educated, and founded several hundred colleges and universities - Duke, Emory, Boston U, many Wesleyans, USC, SMU of course etc - they lost some of that early enthusiasm. Good that they became better educated, but sad that they lost much of that Holy Spirit fire.

  Now, I would not recommend trying to go back to camp meeting days. But I hope Methodism doesn't become immersed in theological nitpicking and liturgical trivia. I recall one minister appointed to a church who seemed more concerned with the proper colors on the altar, his large assortment of vestments and other ceremonial nonsense than preaching fervently the gospel of reconciliation and peace. No offense, please, but I fret a bit that the the OSL gets its members on strategic worship etc commissions and in Methodist seminaries, becoming unduly influential among younger ministers. This will only mean that Methodism loses more and more people, as Catholicism has been doing. For every one who joins American Catholicism four exit. The one reason its USA numbers have remained stable is the large Hispanic influx, and the evangelicals are working hard to attract them. Most Catholics I know are cafteria Catholics who may love their church but pick and choose which doctrines and disciplines they accept. Education has heavily impacted that church, too.

  My main point: let's appreciate the faiths of one another. I cannot accept an authoritarian religion which limits my mental curiosity and freedom, but obviously many people embrace such a faith. That's the appeal of both Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism. They 'have the truth' and one of my grandmothers, for example, a Baptist fundamentalist, found great comfort in such certainly. She, by the way, never went to a movie or played a game of cards or drank wine or a beer. She was born in Quebec and her parents - incidentally - had been French-Canadian Catholics. 

   The General Rules of the Methodist Church, written by Wesley in 1739, forbid "drunkedness, buying or selling spirituous liquors,or drinking them, unless in cases of extreme necessity." The general rule right after that one reads that also forbidden was "the buying or selling of men, women or children with an intention to enslave them."  I also point out the very next thing forbidden was: "Fighting, quarreling, brawling, brother going to law with brother; returning evil for evil, or railing for railing...."  Many more but that's it for now.  

  God bless people of every creed, color and country. I John 4:20-21.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Roman Catholics (God bless them) need to understand that many Protestants can feel quite comfortable disagreeing with one another.

I believe you would be right, if there weren’t so many Protestant denominations which were created over disagreements.

One of my joys as a Protestant has been to discuss, often vigorously, different theological concepts without anyone saying: “You can’t believe that and be a Christian.” You find that narrow attitude primarily among traditional Catholics (not among most Catholics I know) and among fundamentalist Protestants. I believe in ‘big tent’ Christianity which allows and even smiles upon independent and creative and explorative thinking.

Your big tent theory smiles upon those… Except for the “traditional Catholics” and “fundamentalist Protestants” that is.

 Let's let the Methodist interpretation of communion rest. I simply repeat that only a handful of Methodists, mainly associated with the Order of St. Luke, believe in the 'real presence' if we're talking about the elements.

I will let the Methodist teaching on communion rest with what the Church itself teaches*. “Christ is truly present… through the elements of the bread and wine… it is not a rememberanbce of the Last Supper and Crucifixtion only…”* You are right, the Methodist interpretation can be put to rest.

But I hope Methodism doesn’t become immersed in theological nitpicking and liturgical trivia.

And what if they do? Is your “big tent” theory not big enought to include them?

  My main point: let's appreciate the faiths of one another.

This followed by this:

I cannot accept an authoritarian religion which limits my mental curiosity and freedom

Your under handed and insulting comments are very easy to see. You’re not fooling anyone Roy.

God bless people of every creed, color and country. I John 4:20-21.

Unless that “creed” happens to be Catholics who actually follow their Church’s teachings…

God bless

 

[Brother_Wade]

Roy,
I’m not sure how to take you. I agree with a lot of your sentiment about appreciating one another’s faith, but much of what you have written seems to suggest otherwise. Your distaste for members of the Order of Saint Luke seems very apparent. You stated that the growth of Methodism was not because of circuit riders roaming the country side in vestments, delivering canned prayers, reading prescribed scripture, and focusing on communion. There is nothing wrong with vestments or high church visuals. I wonder if you believe the Lord’s Prayer is a canned prayer. And, there is certainly a differnce between prescribed scripture and suggested scripture. The lectionary exists to help carry us through the entire Bible. Otherwise, we could accidentally spend most of our time focusing on scriptures we are most comfortable with. And, no one is saying that most of the focus should be on Communion within the Methodist Church. It is, I believe, a central part of the entire worship service, and I would feel the service was incomplete without it just as I would feel it incomplete without reading the scriptures or hearing a preaching of the Word.
And, if you believe that OSL or others that prefer a high church setting are immersed in “theological nitpicking and liturgical trivia” then you have a very misguided view of what OSL is about.
I simply jumped into this thread because I saw someone lumping United Methodists in with other Protestants inaccurately.

By all means, enjoy the fact that Protestants can disagree and have differing theological concepts.

Not to worry about OSL becoming unduly influential on seminarians… Attendance and membership have actually increased in many of the congregations that I have seen move toward a richer Sacramental and liturgical style of worship. And most of the increase has come from younger families.

 

[Roy5]

Roman Catholic

I apologize if I have written anything that offends you. I have always been very happy to welcome people with varying theologies in any church where I might be. That's what a 'big tent' is all about. Every church I have been active in had members that were very conservative theologically, and those that were very liberal theologically. Most of the members were in between somewhere, many not all that concerned or even aware of the differences. They simply wanted to believe in God and serve God. 

 As far as Methodism and communion are concerned, I would have to know whether the quotation you provide is in an official church document or published by one of the various unofficial 'interest' groups within the church. That often can be confusing. My guess is that Catholicism may face that same problem when, for example, Catholics for Free Choice put out their literature. And even if the denomination were to publish such a definition of communion, that doesn't mean that Methodists have to salute and say Amen! That is a 'big tent' denomination - believe me - as are most mainline Protestant churches. There is nothing comparable to the magisterium or papal infallibility among Methodists. Get ten Methodists together and you may get ten different 'takes' on communion.

  I believe I may have said enough on the subject, and you probably agree with that,

 God bless you and folks of every creed, color and country. There is much about Catholicism that I admire. It's just that I guess I'm too independent to embrace any version of Christianity that would limit my thinking in this pilgrimage though life. I depend on God's grace to understand and - hopefully - 'say well done'. Those words are borrowed from one of my favorite hymns which begins, "Oh, when I come to end of my journey" and ends, "He'll understand and say well done!" I wish you the same.

  May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Roy;

“This Holy Mystery” was adopted at the 2004 General Conference as the official stance of the UMC on Holy Communion. That was the quotation Roman Catholic posted earlier.

 

[Newbie2]

I cannot accept an authoritarian religion which limits my mental curiosity and freedom…

Catholicism limits mental curiosity and (intellectual?) freedom?

 

[Indyann]

Catholicism limits mental curiosity and (intellectual?) freedom?

Roy’s statement sounds like a blatent statement of lack of personal humility.

Exploring Catholic teachings, the whys and wherefores, is more than enough for one lifetime.

 

[Roy5]

Is it true or not true that Catholics are required to accept the theology/disciplines of the magisteriuum and pontiff in all matters of faith and morals? When I say that I could not submit to the limitations imposed upon my curiosity and intellectual freedom, that’s what I have in mind.

As I have stated several times, I am a 'big tent' Protestant who believes in and even advocates independent and creative thinking, whether or not it reflects tradition and/or the official position of my church. My understanding is that Catholics are required to assent to all the official teachings and disciplines of the church. Is this an incorrect understanding?  

 When I explore theologies etc I never entertain any anxiety about heresy. I recall when the Vatican maintained an Index of forbidden books, including many of the great works of brilliant writers. I believe this office is still officially in operation, or has it closed? I have found that the Catholic colleges I know best are less likely to 'cage' certain books. When I was doing research years ago we used to have to get the permission of a priest before we had access to them in a library - if the library had them.

  God bless the whole world - no exceptions.