Communion

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PLeeD

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If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?
You aren’t, unless you’re a member of either the Catholic or Orthodox church ;).

Your question though, is very interesting. I’d never though about it that way before. I look forward to hearing what others more knowledgeable than myself have to say.
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
If we did not do it in remembramnce of him. How would we Know that he is present?
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
to be precise, we are partaking in the full, complete truly present Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of the Lord. Remembering in this context takes on the full meaning of the Hebrew word as used in the Passover celebration, “making present”. It is not just the poor English connotation of looking back fondly at past events and persons. I am of course speaking of Catholic sacramental theology of the Eucharist. In any church without valid orders there is of course also no valid Eucharist.
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

Yes

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?

Remembering Him, as in re-membering Him. Making yourself one with Him week after week, or day after day.

Jesus knew He was going to die and that He would Resurrect and Ascend to His Father.

The Apostles were asked to make themselves one with Christ, time and time again through the act of conversion and communion. To remember the new covenant the He had made with His Church.

In a like way, the Jews once a year at Yom Kippur, had their High Priest intercede for the entire nation of Israel under the old covenant relationship they had with God the Father. The High Priest placed his sins and the sins of the entire nation on the backs of a bull and a sheep and then they were slaughtered and offered to God.
 
How do you know he is present?
I have faith that when Christ took the Bread and Blessed it and said this is my body, That is what he meant It was his body. We also see several times were Christ told us that we were to eat the Fleash of the Son of Man ( his body). I will not go into the same drown out fight over and over agian that comes about on it not being literal but symbolic, as that is not true and was not belived by any , but a few samll groups of heritics that popped uped from time to time over the first 1500 years of christomdom.
 
I have faith that when Christ took the Bread and Blessed it and said this is my body, That is what he meant It was his body. We also see several times were Christ told us that we were to eat the Fleash of the Son of Man ( his body). I will not go into the same drown out fight over and over agian that comes about on it not being literal but symbolic, as that is not true and was not belived by any , but a few samll groups of heritics that popped uped from time to time over the first 1500 years of christomdom.
Then may I ask you why did you even post here if you did not what to go into the same drown out fight over and over again that comes about on it not being literal but symbolic…but us few small groups of heritics (which I find this to be offensive) that popped up from time to time over the first 1500 years of christomdom?
 
Then may I ask you why did you even post here if you did not what to go into the same drown out fight over and over again that comes about on it not being literal but symbolic…but us few small groups of heritics (which I find this to be offensive) that popped up from time to time over the first 1500 years of christomdom?
OK lets start this way. I stated over the first 1500 years, that is prior to any of the protestant denoms today. So be offened if you like. Next I responded to the OP of this thread on the Question of remembrance.
 
How do you know He is present in the Eucharist?

Trust in the Word of God.

“This is My Body” and “This is My Blood”.
 
The question is, if it really is His flesh and blood, then it seems odd to refer to communion as “remembering” Him. We aren’t remembering at all. We are in His real presence.

The question is not whether he is there. Most all of us assume he is there in one form or another, though not all of us claim to understand or even care to attempt explanation of the mystery.

Someone referred to an incomplete meaning in the word “remembrance” that doesn’t cover all the original Greek word implies. Can anyone point to commentary on that point?
 
“The question is, if it really is His flesh and blood, then it seems odd to refer to communion as “remembering” Him. We aren’t remembering at all. We are in His real presence.”

It isn’t one or the other, it’s both.

“This is My Body, This is My Blood, Do this in rememberance of Me.”

He was speaking to the Apostles, asking them to perform the ceremony again and again each time they meet to worship and honor Him. He was establishing His priesthood, with the 12 Apostles and He was ordering the Mass, centering the Eucharist.

You’ll find that in Acts, how they gathered to “break bread”.

100 years after the Last Supper, Justin Martyr writes about the Mass and the activities of the Early Church in the 1st Apology to the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar :

"Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.

Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things.

And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
 
=PLeeD;7232365]If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?
If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
There is no question about this reality! In addition to Christ himself:

Matt. 26:26-28

Mark 14: 22-24

Luke 22: 19-21

John all Chpter six in particualar vrs. 40-55

Paul 1 Cor. 11:23-27 attest to this.

What is NOT understood hre is that it is the NOW GLORIFIED Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Chrit that we receive. NOT IN EARTHLY CORPORAL BODY.
 
The question is, if it really is His flesh and blood, then it seems odd to refer to communion as “remembering” Him. We aren’t remembering at all. We are in His real presence.
If a loved-one dies, and there is a memorial service, it is a real, not symbolic, service, even though one goes to remember the person who died.

What does Christ tell us to do in remembrance of Him? Eat and drink that which He said is His body and blood.

Jon
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
It may be a matter of semantics and definitions.

Communion, in the sense of the Mass, is the process of receiving the the Body, Blood, Divinity and soul…

The remembering, as “Do this in remembrance of Me” is the process, the service, ie the Mass as the vehicle the remembering is accomplished.

I hope I defined it correctly. I stand to be corrected if I made a mistake.

Also, remember John 6:56 (New American Standard Bible)

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 
If the bread and wine are truly transformed into His body and blood, then aren’t we partaking in His flesh in the present, i.e. right now?

If that’s the case, then why does He frame communion in terms of “remembering” Him?
I am thinking that it probably has a much deeper meaning that neither side of the aisle fully comprehends. That is one of the pictures I am starting to get.

You friend
Sufjon
 
If a loved-one dies, and there is a memorial service, it is a real, not symbolic, service, even though one goes to remember the person who died.

What does Christ tell us to do in remembrance of Him? Eat and drink that which He said is His body and blood.

Jon
And don’t forget, at most memorial services, the person in question is present. 😉
 
I don’t know, I have faith and believe he is present. Just like I believe the earth rotates on its axis once every 24 hours.

How do you know he isn’t?
The earth rotating on its axis once every 24 hours is proven by science it has nothing to do with faith.

When Jesus said this is my body he was using the bread because it was Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread so bread was one of the main staples for that meal and for every meal. Bread was given from God to Moses and his people while they were in the desert. Jesus has called himself the bread of life, but Jesus wasn’t really bread. He used bread because people and the disciples could relate to. It like saying in a meeting that this pen is the tower that is going to be built. He uses the pen as a symbol of the tower that is going to be build, but the pen is not really the tower. In the same way Jesus uses bread to symbolize his body but the bread is really not his body. Its something his disciples could relate to. And besided Jesus didn’t say he is present in the bread, he just said this is my body not this is my body that I will always be present in.
 
The earth rotating on its axis once every 24 hours is proven by science it has nothing to do with faith.
Have you personally seen incontrovertable evidence, or are you just relying on authorities who claim they’ve seen it? Its the same thing, I’m trusting authorities who proclaim something based on their proven legitimacy.

In my mind, a theory originated with some Swiss guy few have actually heard of (Zwingli) that he wouldn’t even defend when pressed, is not proven legitimacy.

That every Church which has legitimate claim to a chain of leadership dating back to Christ in common, despite many other differences, proclaim the Real Presence, lends authority to it.
 
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