communion

[chataranga]

Greetings All,
I’ve got a couple of questions and comments regarding the use of wine for the precious blood of Jesus.
Firstly- Why only wine? With the huge problem there is in the U.S. and maybe elsewhere with alcoholism why does it have to be wine? Such a misguided shame. Secondly-what happens when a priest realizes he is an alcoholic and seeks help? Alcoholics shouldn’t have even a little bit of alcohol but it is my understanding that a priest must drink the blood in order for the mass to be valid. Is he no longer able to be a priest or are there other ways to perform clerical duties to remain a priest while not officiating the mass? Blessings to you and yours-be well-stay safe.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Grape wine must be used because that is what Jesus used.

Alcoholic priests may obtain permission to use mustum, a product that consists of grape juice fermented just enough to be called wine, but not enough to have a substantial amount of alcohol. The USCCB document usccb.org/liturgy/innews/1103.shtml states that if a priest cannot even use mustum then he may only con-celebrate with another priest acting as the main celebrant. He may not act as the main celebrant in a con-celebrated Mass. He still remains a priest if he doesn’t celebrate Mass.

 

[TheDoctor]

Why only wine?

Because that is what Jesus told us to use. Only grape wine can become his body, blood, soul and divinity.

With the huge problem there is in the U.S. and maybe elsewhere with alcoholism why does it have to be wine? Such a misguided shame.

You are of course entitled to your opinion however calling Jesus’ command a misguided shame might not be best for your soul. Just sayin’

What happens when a priest realizes he is an alcoholic and seeks help?

As with any other illness, his Diocese or order provides for treatment and prayer for healing.

Alcoholics shouldn’t have even a little bit of alcohol but it is my understanding that a priest must drink the blood in order for the mass to be valid.

You are absolutely correct that the Priest must consume the Blood for the Mass to be valid, however the Church allow mustum to be used validly.

Is he no longer able to be a priest or are there other ways to perform clerical duties to remain a priest while not officiating the mass? Blessings to you and yours-be well-stay safe.

Holy Orders leaves an indelible mark on the soul, so once a priest always a priest. While it is encouraged, I am not sure there is a hard and fast requirement that a Priest say Mass every day (someone please correct me),

Blessings to you as well and sincere prayers for you as you continue to seek.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Holy Orders leaves an indelible mark on the soul, so once a priest always a priest. While it is encouraged, I am not sure there is a hard and fast requirement that a Priest say Mass every day (someone please correct me),

You are correct. Canon 276.2.2 expresses it as an *earnest invitation, *which is hardly an obligation.

Can. 276 §1. In leading their lives, clerics are bound in a special way to pursue holiness since, having been consecrated to God by a new title in the reception of orders, they are dispensers of the mysteries of God in the service of His people.

§2. In order to be able to pursue this perfection:

1/ they are first of all to fulfill faithfully and tirelessly the duties of the pastoral ministry;

2/ they are to nourish their spiritual life from the two-fold table of sacred scripture and the Eucharist; therefore, priests are earnestly invited to offer the eucharistic sacrifice daily and deacons to participate in its offering daily;
…

 

[chataranga]

Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I still have questions/concerns which I think is a good thing. I sincerely think that anything as well as grape wine can be transformed into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of God. Remember this the creator of everything we are supposed to be talking about. If the creator can make the universe and everything in it etc. I doubt that wine can be the only source of the precious blood. In my view anything that the words of consecration are said over will be transformed. Then again any time that I’m having a meal with family and or friends and being present and mindful I’m experiencing a form of Holy communion.
Not worried about my soul. Not understanding something and having questions and concerns, and struggles is a good thing-helps one to grow. Thank you and blessings to all.

 

[Della]

Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I still have questions/concerns which I think is a good thing. I sincerely think that anything as well as grape wine can be transformed into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of God. Remember this the creator of everything we are supposed to be talking about. If the creator can make the universe and everything in it etc. I doubt that wine can be the only source of the precious blood. In my view anything that the words of consecration are said over will be transformed. Then again any time that I’m having a meal with family and or friends and being present and mindful I’m experiencing a form of Holy communion.
Not worried about my soul. Not understanding something and having questions and concerns, and struggles is a good thing-helps one to grow. Thank you and blessings to all.

Certainly, God can do anything (except violate his nature). However, God has reserved the option of choosing persons and things to do his will in the world. The Scriptures are replete with God making choices, choosing one person over another and one means of bringing about his will over another.

God has chosen grape wine as the means by which it becomes the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, as well as wheat bread. Since God has chosen it, it is what we use, eschewing anything else since it is not valid matter–because God said so, not us.

If we follow the “God can do anything he wants so I can do whatever I want” route it is sure to lead us to error and into sin. It’s happened again and again down through history. If God decides he wishes to use certain persons and things, then that is what we go by.

 

[otjm]

Greetings All,
I’ve got a couple of questions and comments regarding the use of wine for the precious blood of Jesus.
Firstly- Why only wine? With the huge problem there is in the U.S. and maybe elsewhere with alcoholism why does it have to be wine? Such a misguided shame. Secondly-what happens when a priest realizes he is an alcoholic and seeks help? Alcoholics shouldn’t have even a little bit of alcohol but it is my understanding that a priest must drink the blood in order for the mass to be valid. Is he no longer able to be a priest or are there other ways to perform clerical duties to remain a priest while not officiating the mass? Blessings to you and yours-be well-stay safe.

I guess some people would consider a 10% of the population to be huge; others would not.

as noted, the priest who has a problem with alcohol may use grape juice that has been barely ferme3nted and the fermentation stopped. Further, the Church is a bit more aware of the problem and screening of candidates for the priesthood is a bit better than it used to be. Not sure if they would refuse to ordain a priest who was alcoholic before ordination, but at least the issue is more likely to be dealt with than in the past.

As to the issue of what Christ did; it is what He did; speculation on what He could or could not have done is pointless. It is what He did, so it is what we do.

God bless you on your journey of faith.

 

[chataranga]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. 10 % huge. I remember reading once many many years ago about some disease that was being experienced in the world- I believe they reported that 10% of the population was affected and also reported that this was of “epidemic proportions”.
My father died as a result of being alcoholic-A brother-in-law died as a result of being alcoholic-A sister-in-law recently had a liver transplant since she needed a new one or would die as a result of her alcoholism.
A little over a decade ago I saw myself heading down the same road as my father. I could see my adult daughter-mother of three self medicating to numb herself at the end of her day-due to the grace of God I have quit drinking completely and she has very little alcohol anymore as far as I know.
Each time there is a get-together with my wife’s family(same family as my sister-in-law) there is more than an abundance of alcohol and drunkenness to go around. The family will get goofy as hell and make jokes about their drinking even with my sister-in-law right there. 10 %-those are the ones we know of for sure(my opinion). We should follow the teachings of the Buddha and refrain from intoxicants that cause heedlessness. Take care-stay safe-blessings to you and yours.

 

[FightingFat]

1. If you’re not a Catholic in a state of grace, you should not participate in Holy Communion anyway.
2. Our faith is that the wine is changed and only the appearance of wine remains, the “accidents” to use St. Thomas Aquinas’ terminology. What you are consuming is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, not “wine”.
3. If, after reflecing on these issues, you have a problem with alcoholic “wine”, don’t take from the chalice. We don’t have to, both species are the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. We receive from the chalice as well as the sacred host in order to take part in the fullness of sign. These days, it’s unlikely the chalice will be administered by a priest in persona Christi, so fullness of sign breaks down at that point surely? So just receive the body of Christ, not the blood.

 

[chataranga]

There seem to me to be inconsistencies in what to believe about what Jesus said as to whether he meant what he said or was exaggerating. I believe hyperbole is the term I’ve read before. A couple of the responses have indicated that since wine was used by Jesus and he said “drink this…” that that is the only liquid that can be used. However he also said “This is how you are to pray…” and gave the disciples the lord’s prayer yet no one uses that prayer exclusively to my knowledge.
Also in some posts an alternative called mustum was mentioned. Seems like a nice alternative that could be the norm instead of an exception since the general consensus is to use wine instead of something else. Take care and be well.

 

[FightingFat]

There seem to me to be inconsistencies in what to believe about what Jesus said as to whether he meant what he said or was exaggerating. I believe hyperbole is the term I’ve read before. A couple of the responses have indicated that since wine was used by Jesus and he said “drink this…” that that is the only liquid that can be used. However he also said “This is how you are to pray…” and gave the disciples the lord’s prayer yet no one uses that prayer exclusively to my knowledge.
Also in some posts an alternative called mustum was mentioned. Seems like a nice alternative that could be the norm instead of an exception since the general consensus is to use wine instead of something else. Take care and be well.

The Church’s practice is formed by Scripture & Tradition. The “teaching” of Jesus was given orally to the Apostles, Jesus didn’t write it all down, therefore we follow the practice which has always been held by the Universal (i.e. Catholic) Church.