Community Around the Altar?

[fix]

Gosh! I didn’t know that the GIRM superceded scripture.

Matthew

It does not. It is in harmony. What contradicts Scripture is disobedience.

 

[Walking_Home]

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Well Ive been accused of worse.

Sorry i cant get as worked up about this as the rest of you. BTW-at each of these Masses I got to hold Our Lord and Savior in my hand and consume his body. It was quite an experience but i guess I should have been worrying about who was standing where rather than who was receivng whom.

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Not accusing—your own words bear witness—that you seem to be suffering from a sad condition.

 

[SouthernSister]

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Liturgical apathy is a sad thing to have.

You lead me to believe that you feel that those of us who know or suspect that this is irregular/forbidden practice and do not take action are apathetic. I feel that is an unfair assessment. At times, it is in the best interest of the parish to say nothing, but pray fervently.

I’ve seen the best catechists and the most orthodox Catholics leave my parish in recent years because they cannot abide by such shenanigans.

Who, then, is left to teach those who remain?

SouthernSister

 

[Walking_Home]

You lead me to believe that you feel that those of us who know or suspect that this is irregular/forbidden practice and do not take action are apathetic. I feel that is an unfair assessment. At times, it is in the best interest of the parish to say nothing, but pray fervently.

I’ve seen the best catechists and the most orthodox Catholics leave my parish in recent years because they cannot abide by such shenanigans.

Who, then, is left to teach those who remain?

SouthernSister

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Is it in the best interest of the parish—to be misled. It does not reflect true concern for the parish for a priest to encourage such practices.

 

[SouthernSister]

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Is it in the best interest of the parish—to be misled. It does not reflect true concern for the parish for a priest to encourage such practices.

On some level, however, most parishioners are invicibly ignorant. Is the best way to effect change to begin writing to the Bishop, to the Holy Father, and then, if it doesn’t change quick enough to suit us, to leave?

Many of us are not called to do that and must follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit and pray and continue to work where we are. To label that as Liturgical apathy is unfair and inaccurate.

SouthernSister

 

[Walking_Home]

On some level, however, most parishioners are invicibly ignorant. Is the best way to effect change to begin writing to the Bishop, to the Holy Father, and then, if it doesn’t change quick enough to suit us, to leave?

Many of us are not called to do that and must follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit and pray and continue to work where we are. To label that as Liturgical apathy is unfair and inaccurate.

SouthernSister

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Let ask you SouthernSister. When you meet someone in need do you just pray for them and hope someone else will act in helping them out. Would you not try to act out the promptings of the Holy Spirit and try to help a person. It is easy to say --well I pray–and pass the buck to someone else. It is more difficult to actually internalize the promptings and act accordingly. From what you say the people in your parish are in need and leaving them in “invincible ignorance” is not the answer.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

No one is to be on the altar until after the priest is done taking Communion. You can find this under the USCCB website.

Rules, rules, rules !!! When it comes to liturgy there are just too many. Is there no room for creativity ? The Mass is a communal experience so why not have the community close to the action.
I think it’s a more profound way of experiencing the Eucharist and I think we should have more of it. I shall email the USCCB with my recommendations and hope they will change one of the “rules”.

 

[Walking_Home]

Rules, rules, rules !!! When it comes to liturgy there are just too many. Is there no room for creativity ? The Mass is a communal experience so why not have the community close to the action.
I think it’s a more profound way of experiencing the Eucharist and I think we should have more of it. I shall email the USCCB with my recommendations and hope they will change one of the “rules”.

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Hate to break it to you Bob Byrnes— you would be emailing the wrong people and I am not sure how receptive Rome would be of you suggestion of changing “rules”.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

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Hate to break it to you Bob Byrnes— you would be emailing the wrong people and I am not sure how receptive Rome would be of you suggestion of changing “rules”.

I think (and hope and pray) that he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Hate to break it to you Bob Byrnes— you would be emailing the wrong people and I am not sure how receptive Rome would be of you suggestion of changing “rules”.

I think (and hope and pray) that he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek.

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He may well have—I hope and pray too.

 

[chicago]

It is in direct violation of the GIRM and your Priest knows it. Believe me he knows it. Unfortunately, many people such as yourself believe that the motivation behind this disrespectful as well as unlawful action is to build “community”. It is not.

The entire sequence and purpose of this activity, called a Missa Corona incidentally by those who practice such things is to completely blur the distinction between the ordained priesthood and the laity. Originally trotted out in Life Teen Masses on a grand scale, it moved into other areas as well. However, the Vatican condemned the practice in no uncertain terms.

According to Life Teen advocates the practice no longer occurs at Life Teen events however many are enamored of the practice .

Thats it. Your Priest is in violation of all established norms and guidelines and should be censured.

When did Life Teen start employing such a practice? It is well known that they used it, but it seems to me that it was likely around long before they were. It’s more of a 70s type innovation, in my understanding and witness.

 

[chicago]

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Not accusing—your own words bear witness—that you seem to be suffering from a sad condition.

I think that practical experience with such things generally proves that reactionaryistic responses generally don’t get very far. Often, what can be best accomplished is to merely be understanding and tolerant of the situation and persons/resonings responsible while faithfully going about one’s own spiritual life as best as possible without getting too torn over everything. The reality is that, most often, there really isn’t anything one can effect for immediate change and the best which can be done is to pray, witness, and speak humbly to others when asked. In the long run, it likely goes a lot further in most cases towards real progress than trying to play liturgical cop and reformer. Such an honest recognition is not apathy so much as maturity.

 

[Seatuck]

When did Life Teen start employing such a practice? It is well known that they used it, but it seems to me that it was likely around long before they were. It’s more of a 70s type innovation, in my understanding and witness.

I don’t know when they started it but they recieved instruction from the Vatican in 2004 to stop it.

Each LIFE TEEN parish receives a video with Msgr. Dale discussing the Liturgical Changes which Rome has asked us to implement. In total obedience to the Bishops, the teens will no longer come around the altar during the Consecration and we will no longer say “The Mass never ends….” at the end of the liturgy, but rather we will be in communion with the worldwide church.

lifeteen.org/default.aspx?PageID=PRHISTORY

 

[Corki]

When did Life Teen start employing such a practice? It is well known that they used it, but it seems to me that it was likely around long before they were. It’s more of a 70s type innovation, in my understanding and witness.

Yep, 70s. When I was in college, our Newman center priests did this for daily Mass. That was 1977 on.

 

[drafdog]

Fix (Post #21),
You seem to have missed Mt 19:13-14 and its parallel, Mk 10:13-14. The command was that they not be forbidden to approach him. If they approach the altar and are pushed away by the writers of the GIRM, are we adhering to the command found in scripture or following the traditions of men instead?
The writers of the GIRM have neither the authority nor the power to contradict scripture.

Matthew

 

[Walking_Home]

I think that practical experience with such things generally proves that reactionaryistic responses generally don’t get very far. Often, what can be best accomplished is to merely be understanding and tolerant of the situation and persons/resonings responsible while faithfully going about one’s own spiritual life as best as possible without getting too torn over everything. The reality is that, most often, there really isn’t anything one can effect for immediate change and the best which can be done is to pray, witness, and speak humbly to others when asked. In the long run, it likely goes a lot further in most cases towards real progress than trying to play liturgical cop and reformer. Such an honest recognition is not apathy so much as maturity.

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If the Fathers of the First Council of Nicea thought that way—the Council may not have happened.

 

[SouthernSister]

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Let ask you SouthernSister. When you meet someone in need do you just pray for them and hope someone else will act in helping them out. Would you not try to act out the promptings of the Holy Spirit and try to help a person. It is easy to say --well I pray–and pass the buck to someone else. It is more difficult to actually internalize the promptings and act accordingly. From what you say the people in your parish are in need and leaving them in “invincible ignorance” is not the answer.

I’m going to steal a line from chicago’s post:

The reality is that, most often, there really isn’t anything one can effect for immediate change and** the best which can be done is to pray, witness, and speak humbly to others when asked**. In the long run, it likely goes a lot further in most cases towards real progress than trying to play liturgical cop and reformer. Such an honest recognition is not apathy so much as maturity.

If I gave you reason to believe that all I do is pray about the situation, then I’d like to correct that. I’m in the trenches by being a catechist, a witness, and being a general “pebble” in my pastor’s shoe.

I have not see the Big Guns be effective in my parish.

SouthernSister

 

[BritishCatholic]

Fix (Post #21),
You seem to have missed Mt 19:13-14 and its parallel, Mk 10:13-14. The command was that they not be forbidden to approach him. If they approach the altar and are pushed away by the writers of the GIRM, are we adhering to the command found in scripture or following the traditions of men instead?
The writers of the GIRM have neither the authority nor the power to contradict scripture.

Matthew

You are most right. The writers of the GIRM don’t have the authority to contradict the scripture. But that isn’t topical.

This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is the sacred act of worship that the Church has held at its absolute pinnacle for over 1500 years. People gathering around the sacred altar like hippies is not appropriate nor is it coherent to tradition.

 

[chicago]

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If the Fathers of the First Council of Nicea thought that way—the Council may not have happened.

Well, when the average parishioner in a pew is elevated to be bishop, then he can participate in an Ecumenical Council and call for correction which many will not follow, despite his pleas. And then he can be likewise frustrated from the other end of the hierarchy. Hopefully, he will have learned well by that time that the best he could do as a lowly layman is probably also the best he can do as a bishop, also.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, when the average parishioner in a pew is elevated to be bishop, then he can participate in an Ecumenical Council and call for correction which many will not follow, despite his pleas. And then he can be likewise frustrated from the other end of the hierarchy. Hopefully, he will have learned well by that time that the best he could do as a lowly layman is probably also the best he can do as a bishop, also.

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It is the average parishioner in the pew who is being affected by all the liberties being taken. Your response is the type that promotes our defeat—but thankfully the Church has given us the authority to act and we don’t have to be bishops to follow thru. In truth --we would be going against Her mandate–if we don’t act.

RS–2004

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.