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Walking_Home
Guest
Thank you for clarifying. You must also keep in mind—that just because the big guns have not had much effect up to now—is no reason to throw in the towel.
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Thank you for clarifying. You must also keep in mind—that just because the big guns have not had much effect up to now—is no reason to throw in the towel.
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Brendan
Guest
They do approach Him, AFTER THEY ARE CALLED.
And it can’t be by just a man, it a call from Christ Himself.
Christ acts through His Church, and His Church Never disregards His Commands. Certain men, like this priest, may attempt to do so, but then the Call isn’t from Christ then, but from a Man.
We are Called, By Christ through His Church, to the Altar at the time of Holy Communion. In fact, like Christ coming down from Heaven to live among us, Christ comes down from the Sanctuary to the Nave to be among us.
This is how we are Called, this is the True Calling to the Altar of our Lord, the one issued by Christ Himself. Following another calling isn;t from Christ, but from man.
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estesbob
Guest
Censure him! By gosh they should have him shot at dawn!!
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chicago
Guest
And then the bishop can summarily ignore it, or ask the priest to “not do that” (and get ignored), or perhaps the bishop passes it off to someone else to handle (maybe he never even gets the complaint in the first place because an intermediary appointed to “take care of these things” intervenes first). In which case, we’re right back to where we started.
As estesbob wisely pointed out, then, it’s ultimately a matter between the priest and his bishop. And we’re probably more often well off leaving it at that, trusting in God, and keeping our own peace rather than getting all knotted up over everything.
Ultimately, you’re rhetoricizing in ideals, not pragmatics of realalistic situations. When one lives in a imperfect world of imperfect human beings, most solutions are inherantly imperfect - and we just have to learn to deal with it somehow.
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stmaria
Guest
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Scotty_PGH
Guest
Am I misunderstanding your post, which appears to contradict the Vatican document quoted in your response? Are you saying it is best to not question “Abuses in Liturgical Matters” even though the Vatican has provided guidelines and encouragement for doing precisely that?
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chicago
Guest
This would be a good way to get yourself thrown out of the Church and put in an ambulance or squad car for a trip to the mental hospital.
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chicago
Guest
What I am saying is that we need to be realistic and use practical prudence.
There are those who would get up in arms about everything which is seemingly abnormal and suggest that we need to be constantly making a fuss or reporting every “abuse” to the bishop’s office.
But most often all this will really accomplish is to make us lose any sense of peace, work ourselves up to a certain superiority perspective of playing watchdog, and frustrate us when little or nothing happens.
There is a time and place for everything. Sometimes a situation is such that it would be worthwhile to charitibly question it. Occasionally, matters are of sufficient seriousness that the bishop ought to be notified. But, most often, there really is little which can be practically accomplished to effect direct change. In this case, it may indeed be best to go about things in your own discrete way with personal fidelity and offering to God.
Most significantly, however, what concerns me is that one who chooses to use another approach (such as what I just described and that which others have articulated) gets condemned rather than respected for the unique experience and insight which can be provided. There is something of worth to every way of dealing with these issues. It is not cut and clear that we must act only in one preferred manner. I think it is best left up to the discernment of each individual as to what works for them, and believe this is likely to be a most prudent way of approaching the issue in actual practice rather than mere ideals of the absolute.
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estesbob
Guest
I agree with this. But to be honest on a scale of 1-10 on abuses I get excited about this is about a minus 5. I remain in the pew when they gather around the altar but i am not about to waste the Bishops time with something like this.
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Teelynn
Guest
I have to agree with this. There are abuses and then there are ABUSES. If this is the worst thing you’ve ever seen…put it this way, I have seen worse. And some things you definitely GO TO THE BISHOP ABOUT and some things you might approach Fr. about in question.
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turtleoompa
Guest
True. But wouldn’t it be nice that all Catholic Churches followed the same rubrics that are put forth by the Holy See. Sometimes when we let the" little things" continue, they become the norm and then it becomes too complicated to change. We forget what is the norm and eventually things get out of hand. The Catholic Mass is beautiful and Holy. Let us not let these little things evolve us out of what little details really are important to our Mass. Every detail is important. No matter how small.
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chicago
Guest
Yes and no. On the one hand liturgy is the “Work of the People of God”. It is corporate worship which should be something held more significantly in common than just a playground for individualistic expressions. On the other hand, no two Masses will EVER look exactly the same. The nature of a church building or chapel, the priest’s personality, the makeup of the community, the spirituality at play will all be influences. As such, it is all too easy to find something which we don’t like. If it isn’t that Father didn’t follow rubric X, then it will be that he “talked too fast” or “Mary wore that big hat to show off” or the altar boy (or was it a girl) had gym shoes on - and they wore the tacky vestments. Yes, we should strive for fidelity even in the little things. But we need to be more understanding, I think, rather than jumping to constant judgement, looking for the good and value instead of the imperfections. We’d do well to appreciate intentions. And we need to be careful not to make mountains out of moehills. Again, our own personal simple witness of fidelity will most likely go further in the long run than will trying to correct everyone else. The latter typically just comes off as annoying and doesn’t usually get you very far.
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drafdog
Guest
Brendan (post #42),
The children are presumably baptized which is the call from Christ to approach the altar of the Most High, Whose Name be praised forever.
In terms of the need for all to be vigilant in ensuring that abuses are not tolerated we need to understand what constitutes liturgical abuse. Let me refer you all to 1Cor 11:17-22. Rabbi Paul is describing genuine liturgical abuses which occured around the Eucharistic celebration before we got into writing rule books that are more far more rigorous than necessary. All he did was admonish them gently to behave more kindly toward one another at the Eucharistic table. More detailed instructions were left to a later visit to the community. Bear in mind that most of these Masses were celebrated in private homes with the children playing at their parents’ feet.
Matthew
The children are presumably baptized which is the call from Christ to approach the altar of the Most High, Whose Name be praised forever.
In terms of the need for all to be vigilant in ensuring that abuses are not tolerated we need to understand what constitutes liturgical abuse. Let me refer you all to 1Cor 11:17-22. Rabbi Paul is describing genuine liturgical abuses which occured around the Eucharistic celebration before we got into writing rule books that are more far more rigorous than necessary. All he did was admonish them gently to behave more kindly toward one another at the Eucharistic table. More detailed instructions were left to a later visit to the community. Bear in mind that most of these Masses were celebrated in private homes with the children playing at their parents’ feet.
Matthew
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fix
Guest
Pushed away? Are you claimimg the magisterium has no authority to regulate the liturgy? Where is that concept found in Tradition or Scripture and why is your interpretation more authentic than the magisterium’s interpretation?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Quote=drafdog
Fix (Post #21),
You seem to have missed Mt 19:13-14 and its parallel, Mk 10:13-14. The command was that they not be forbidden to approach him. If they approach the altar and are pushed away by the writers of the GIRM, are we adhering to the command found in scripture or following the traditions of men instead?
The writers of the GIRM have neither the authority nor the power to contradict scripture.
Fix (Post #21),
You seem to have missed Mt 19:13-14 and its parallel, Mk 10:13-14. The command was that they not be forbidden to approach him. If they approach the altar and are pushed away by the writers of the GIRM, are we adhering to the command found in scripture or following the traditions of men instead?
The writers of the GIRM have neither the authority nor the power to contradict scripture.
Matthew
Just from the above —he/she seems to be denying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church and sees Her as just a man made institution. Incorporated into this —seems to be the denial of the papacy.
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SouthernSister
Guest
Not throwing in the towel, but you do understand that the Big Guns are no longer around?
SouthernSister
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ukdal1
Guest
I hope I dont offend anyone with this post. PLEASE forgive me if I do. My opinion, for what its worth (not much) is that listening to the arguements from both sides makes me think…One of the reasons I joined the ONE true Church because of the Traditions and traditions that the Church has and has had for 2000 years. I go to a parish that some could call a little on the liberal side sometimes but not because of the priests or the way Mass is celebrated but because of the way some people there treat coming to Mass. ex.- men wearing shorts and tanktops and women dressing in less than I’ve seen in my younger days in dance clubs:blush: . I’m not saying that we should all wear 3 pc suits and full length gowns, but some people should have a little more respect than what they do. I’m not perfect by ANY means but I try to dress me and my children respectfully when attending Mass. But that brings me to my point. I dont care which Mass you attend NO or TLM, there are guidelines for a reason. If we all got to decide how Mass was conducted, then we would be a Protestant church and not the Catholic Church. God set things for the Church in a hierarchy for a reason, so we couldnt screw it up!!! Some of the posts I’ve read in this thread amaze me and I understand where you are coming from, but the fact is that the Church does things for a reason and if you go against it then YOU are wrong. No matter how petty you think things are. If you dont like the color of the vestments this cycle or think that you should be allowed to dance around the altar or change the words of the liturgy, it DOESNT matter what you think or want. (No offense!!) Sometimes you follow tradition for tradition’s sake. When people let one thing go then the next one’s gets bigger and bigger and then we’ll have women priests and lay people running the show. And then you wont be able to tell the difference between us and everyone else…just a thought…
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chicago
Guest
Afterall, the hierarcy usually does a very competent job at screwing it up on their own without any need for assistance from us!
That isn’t necessarily true. Often what we are dealing with are incidentals which can very well vary and change in expression over time. So, while it would behoove to be obedient to the current norms, that doesn’t mean that an argument for alteration is inherantly incorrect. Most things which have become part of tradition, afterall, were at one time an innovation.
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ukdal1
Guest
The hierarchy screw it up when they dont do as their told to do from Rome.Afterall, the hierarcy usually does a very competent job at screwing it up on their own without any need for assistance from us!
I wasnt there when Vatican II happened and I’ve only been in the Church for 6 months but I’d say that it was difficult for people to stomach that much change at once. But if a priest is doing something crazy wrong on purpose and out of line, I would have to, in good conscience mention it to him. I’m not saying that we should go to Mass with a checklist and if he forgets to say the Creed call the Bishop. But you have to use common sense. if something is dead wrong and it’s done on purpose, then its wrong. On a lighter note a catechist at Church told us one time, "If you dont like the Church, just wait around another four or five hundred years for it to change. "
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chicago
Guest
You’re not getting the joke. The “hierarchy” is made up of men. With fallen natures, like our own. Many who have historically had their own agendas, sinfulness, pride. Even Rome itself has frequently been cause of scandal in the 2000 years of Church history.
The question is when it is truly “dead wrong”.
Or forty or fifty. Sure enough, it will!On a lighter note a catechist at Church told us one time, "If you dont like the Church, just wait around another four or five hundred years for it to change. "
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