Community verus Individuality

[goodcatholic]

How important is the individual in a Catholic Context? I sometimes get the impression that the group is more important than one individual.
[Don’ be so selfish? Stop focussing on yourself so much. Forget yourself and focus on the needs of others. You’ve got mental health issues? So what. Get over it and start helping your fellow citizens. Psychology? That’s for self-absorbed liberals. We catholics are here to help the poor so let’s get on with it.] This is the feeling I get from a lot of Catholics and maybe Catholicism in general. Counselling and the need for counselling is almost frowned upon? Introversion and interest in psychological issues are seen as obstacles to our jobs as pragmatic Christians. Am I way off base here?

 

[RKS89]

That is weird because I’d say that was the attitude of the Protestant churches I was in. To be fair I don’t think it was their theology, necessarily, that made them that way.

 

[Edward_H]

A difficult to understand point is that in the Catholic Church the answer is “each and both”

The Church talks about the unitive and procreative purposes of conjugal love.

But when you get into the purpose of both they are different sides of the same coin.

Unitive serves the procreative and procreative serves the unitive.

In short having children should spur on integral development of the couple, helping them grow in unity by virtue of the demands of parenting. The couple becomes ever more like the community of Persons in the Trinity.

 

[metanoia1]

 goodcatholic,

 I can't tell you how often I've read posts on caf where members are suggesting someone should seek counseling or some other professional help for different issues. I have no idea of the religion of the folks making these suggestions however but there doesn't seem to be a lack of support for the individual.

 

[pianistclare]

Wow. I guess you have not been at CAF very long?
Spiritual Direction and lay counseling is often recommended for folks with tough issues.
Where are you hanging out that you have met these persons? We do advocate Social Justice work, service of to others (see: Corporal Works of Mercy and also Spiritual Works of Mercy.

For Catholics it’s all about Sacraments, Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the wisdom of the Magisterium and relationship: With Christ and others.

 

[Lara]

I think your assessment is pretty good. But do you have a problem with this approach?

 

[goodcatholic]

Those of us with mental health issues can be pretty self-absorbed I admit. But I’ve come across advice which suggests I indulge too much in self pity, dwelling on past traumas. I think even if what they say is true, their derogatory tone can be insensitive in my opinion.
I think we all need to be listened to and validated to some extent, even if what we are saying sounds childish or spiritually immature. Hard nosed Catholics tend to come down hard and are even dismissive. Yes we all need discipline, but its almost as if some love the opportunity to wag their fingers “no, no, no, you naughty, naughty Catholic”

 

[goodcatholic]

True but we can help others better if we shared similar issues in the past as that person is experiencing. Also if we have similar personality flaws.

 

[Lara]

I’ve always had trouble believing that. Nobody can know my troubles and pains, even if they have the identical illness.

Once I hurt my hand and it took a long time to mend. I learnt that the people who cared did so because of something in themselves, not because they hurt their hand.

 

[goodcatholic]

Nobody can know my troubles and pains

can you direct me to another thread with your story?

 

[Lara]

No such thread exists and I’m not looking for compassion here. But I’m just pointing out that it’s very difficult for people to feel what others feel. It may not have anything to do with Catholicism. In fact, the hard-nosed people I’ve met have usually lived through the war or some hardship. So they have the idea that people can just pull themselves up by their boot straps.

Many people around me have mental issues. But I’m not sure they can even comprehend their own issues, leave aside the issues of their mentally ill friends. I think it takes a special person to look into another person’s heart or into their situation and see what’s going on. Sometimes, I try to do that for others. I think about what their concerns might be on a given day. Does the counsellor succeed at doing that for you?

Think about the people around you whom you are trying to get support from. Imagine for a few hours that they are trying to get support too. And one person they would like it from is you. And it’s hard to give it probably because you actually need more of it.

In general, support is in very short supply. Everybody wants it, but it’s hard to give it.

 

[goodcatholic]

No such thread exists and I’m not looking for compassion here.

That’s a shame. Is it because you don’t want to appear vulnerable on CAF?

But I’m just pointing out that it’s very difficult for people to feel what others feel.

I’m not good at empathy for women generally but occasionally I hit the mark. I certainly empathise with anyone who has been bullied.

In fact, the hard-nosed people I’ve met have usually lived through the war or some hardship. So they have the idea that people can just pull themselves up by their boot straps.

Yes I can see there is truth in what you say. But there are also hard-nosed people who decided to close shop and not address their own mental health issues which they are better able to hide than people like me. Also they decided that seeking admiration was a better deal, so they don’t have to expose who they really are to anyone. They are afraid of exposure.

I think it takes a special person to look into another person’s heart or into their situation and see what’s going on

And I’m that special person. No I’m kind of joking but sometimes I can genuinely help others understand themselves.

Sometimes, I try to do that for others. I think about what their concerns might be on a given day.

Sounds like you might have some mental health issues too. The upside is that we tend to be more compassionate with those struggling as well.

In general, support is in very short supply. Everybody wants it, but it’s hard to give it.

Some prefer admiration.
Most want and need compassion at some point in their lives.
But I get the impression on CAF, that people would prefer not to make themselves vulnerable. That they have to appear strong, and less sinful and more selfless and more informed. It’s competitive more than supportive. But that is just my first impression.
It’s not hard to give really. Someone willing to talk about their lives in a transparent way is refreshing. It gives the people who would prefer to keep their guard up, relief. Because they can either see how they have conquered some of their own demons or they can see a part of themselves in that person;s story. So a person willing to be vulnerable on an Internet forum such as this, can be seen to be more giving, more selfless than the people who are reading their post.

 

[mkoopman]

Witness and testimony to Christ is paramount. As catholics we should understand how Christ won our dignity as persons by dieing for each and everyone of us.
Semantics, or more specifically vocabulary, can be a sticking point. I used “person” where you might prefer to have read “individual.” The word individual is loaded with connotations of self importance, self image, esteem and Americanism with radical individualism. But I read and generally intend person to be the short form of the idea of whole person. Those images aroused by use of the word individual do not produce unity of soul and body but imply secular ideals. Whole person converges on meeting Christ who frees us to be the individual God made us to be; it relates to holiness, and virtues. Individual and the secular, or “social” image, that is evoked relates to “gang” and crowd mentality. A dualistic and confused image that worldly views hold up as realizing individualism while actively building conformity instead; the lie is clear to discern.
Knowing holiness is the greatest aspect of our individuality. Catholics should reflect that in upholding what the church teaches. I can understand how you see catholics as the problem but please recognize this as a problem of many catholics who you will encounter and that these attitudes run contrary to what Holy Church truly teaches. Of course, we each, individually, as catholics are what the church speaks on so many levels that poor catechesis becomes what the church is understood to teach. Find your self centered on Jesus and become what the church is meant to teach in your life. The problem of these others will then become the solution you have discovered in knowing Christ Jesus.
God bless you, I pray for you. Jesus is truly the good doctor. Get to know Him better.

 

[goodcatholic]

I can understand how you see catholics as the problem but please recognize this as a problem of many catholics who you will encounter and that these attitudes run contrary to what Holy Church truly teaches.

I don’t see all Catholics as the problem. Fortunately it a broad enough Church, that I have met ones who can think outside the square. I see Pope Francis as someone who thinks outside the square too. He avoids legalism and has a caring respect for the dignity of each individual. This is why he is popular with secular society. His love is real.

 

[mkoopman]

Your respect for elements of the faith is good to hear. However, though we are to live in the now this was never meant to mean the stuff of what is passed off as journalism. Yes, this more dramatically relates to the decrees and proclamations of emperor or dictator, communist or otherwise.
How can Pope Francis justify his acceptance of the Chinese Catholic Patriots Association? This to me is like a pope accepting the Klan running the catholic church in the US. The better connected political wing of the Klan was adept at attempting to usurp such power.
This covert politics, including lying to get elected, is how we get the nauseating view of the individual that is partly to blame for what has infected China.
The greatest extreme of placing the community before the individual is Communism and the form of government that is intended to result in Communism called Socialism.
Why does it appear so many “millennials” who seem to seek after this radical individualism, which the cross you bear brought to mind for me, are so blind to this outcome and choose to believe there is hope in socialism?
My guess is that this is rooted in the wrong headed view of nuclear arms as if they were not horrific weapons of mass destruction that have no part in valid defense of sovereign nations.
What does your heart tell you of these community crisis issues that parallel your difficulty on the personal relationship level?

 

[midori]

Jesus died for each of us as individuals, rather than as an anonymous crowd of people in need of saving.

But the Body of Christ is a community.

So it’s important to balance individuality in one sense, with our place in the bigger picture in a different sense.

A puzzle isn’t complete without all of its pieces. So even the absence of one piece has a big impact on the integrity of the puzzle. But by the same token, no one piece has the whole-ness and complete-ness of the puzzle itself within it.

So-- if people are looking for help from Random People on the Internet, you’re going to get answers from a wide variety of people, from a wide variety of experiences. That advice may be perfectly valid, even if the recipient doesn’t necessarily appreciate all of it, or consider it feasible for their situation. But that’s why we visit people like psychologists, or doctors, or attorneys, or a spiritual advisor, or whatever, whenever we need to apply someone’s specialized training to our specific circumstances. “But I can’t afford to go to a psychologist!” “The closest psychologist is 45 minutes away and I don’t have a car!” “I tried a psychologist once and it was just a waste of money, telling me stuff I already knew!”----and so you’re left with well-meaning advice from Random People on the Internet.

 

[goodcatholic]

How can Pope Francis justify his acceptance of the Chinese Catholic Patriots Association?

Not aware of this. need to read up.

The greatest extreme of placing the community before the individual is Communism and the form of government that is intended to result in Communism called Socialism.

Communism and socialism are evils greater than the gap between rich and poor in capitalist countries. And now we see that free speech is being limited by such influence as this “group think” instead of speaking from conscience."

You seem well read on this topic and I struggle to understand all of your points but thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[goodcatholic]

So-- if people are looking for help from Random People on the Internet,

Random people are not to be underestimated. I’ve received help from strangers on the net. Profound help sometimes. It’s a global world. Sometimes the most helpful person is the one who lives thousands of miles from you.

 

[BlackFriar]

You seem to be surrounded by old school influences.

Given that, Protestants are considerably more individualistic, they arent protesters for nothing.

 

[mkoopman]

Communism and socialism are evils greater than the gap between rich and poor in capitalist countries. And now we see that free speech is being limited by such influence as this “group think” instead of speaking from conscience."

Atheistic communism and secularism are not separate although these overlap they have different extents. Free speech is clearly contained within one and not in the other, a fair selection for measuring the variance in both. Conscience is also relevant to the assertion regarding free market wealth.
Creation of wealth is a path out of poverty while redistribution of wealth is a path to unwarranted dependence. But secularist views with laissez-faire perspectives deny not only conscience as necessary but include fallacious views of human dignity.
There is good reason that corrupt views of human dignity and distribution of wealth where rich get richer and poor poorer do not reflect wealth creation. Well formed conscience guides successful creation of wealth while greed forms unjust redistribution of wealth. Law soundly based on the common good can correct many abuses but sin remains the true enemy. Where the overlap of secularist and atheist views deny human dignity, from conception to natural death, the differences that may exist between each are insignificant in relation to the error of both. Absolute morality is the corrective needed. God is real and ultimately in charge. Faith is required to see the path to do the good and catholics do not have a monopoly on faith. Catholic teaching is truth and those who reject it or twist the meaning of scripture can not see truth. Communist or capitalist economics is neither the source or the cure for the problem in human community disallowing individuals to thrive. Adherence to truth is the cure and places human dignity as the wealth criteria for true growth.