Comon Liturgical Abuses?

[ncjohn]

John, I do acknowledge that there is not any formal rule

Thank you

What worries some and I include myself is, at what point do personal initiatives get out of hand as far as the liturgy ??

That does worry me also, but I also know that there are channels for dealing with actual abuses. This particular practice however, which is probably common to the majority of Catholics, has been around for over 30 years…essentially tracking the time of the Pauline Mass with the people saying the Our Father rather than having it said for them by the priest.

On the other hand, the Vatican has dealt with many actual abuses, as have actual dioceses and the USCCB. RS is a prime example of that, though it probably took far too long to come out and some of the implementation has been slow.

Does that mean that we’ll never have have another clown mass spring up, or that we won’t see other inappropriate things get tried? No, but it does mean that if it actually is an abuse that it can be addressed. And unlike holding hands, something that is just inappropriate or bizarre is not going to come into acceptance and spread by acclamation. We’re not going to get congregations deciding to pick their noses or one of the other common red herrings that get tossed out in the “if we allow this, we’re saying ‘anything goes’” arguments.

We do need to act with charity with each other though, neither imposing our preference on others or making judgments about each other based on those preferences. I prefer to just rejoice that people are there praising God with me.

Peace,

 

[Lover_of_Jesus]

I find most of the Masses that I attend do have a few of the “abuses” mentioned, However I’m still blessed by these less than perfect liturgies.
Hopefully all abuses will be less in the futue.

 

[estesbob]

You should see the congregation at the parish I attended here in Fort Lauderdale. There was so many handmovements I though I was with the Shakers and not the Catholics!!!

At one point my older daughter started to do the “Backatcha” movement without thinking. I leaned down to her and said, “Stop. You know more than these people. Don’t make it about you.” Although everyone of those people may have “felt” the need to make the movements, for her it made the focus on the crowd and not Our Lord.

Even at nine, she questioned the tabernacle on the side and the procession bowing to the presider’s chair behind the altar. God Bless my Holy Parish, our wonderful Pastor and every volunteer in our CCD classes!!!

So did you have to fight off the handholders at the “Our Father”?smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_108v.gif

 

[estesbob]

The fact that the letter specifically does not go on to say there is anything wrong with it is pretty convincing proof that it is not and was not considered an issue except in the context of trying to replace the sign of peace.

OH NO! Not another hand holding thread! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_10.gif

 

[awindrose]

OH NO! Not another hand holding thread! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_10.gif

It’s a special novena, you ritually beat a dead horse over and over and over… counts for time off in purgetory

 

[estesbob]

It’s a special novena, you ritually beat a dead horse over and over and over… counts for time off in purgetory

All right-that means smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_55.gif all of us are going straight to heaven!

smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb114&pp=ZS

 

[cheddarsox]

As far as hand holding during the OUR Father…after all, it is OUR Father, not MY Father, and all the language within is communal…forgive US our sins, give US OUR daily bread, etc. It is not contrary for the gathered to acknowledge that the prayer is a community prayer recognizing that WE are united in OUR faith and dependence upon the goodness of God.

It does seem more contrary to fold one’s hands against one’s chest, close ones eyes and try to blank out the community around oneself and focus only on the Father. We have 167 hours a week to pray alone, and for most, only one hour a week to gather as a community and worship and pray and acknowledge the gift of community and Christian brotherhood that God provides in this special way.

All acts of Christian love and unity honor the Father.

If the marital act is an act of praise and honors the Father, certainly holding a Christian brothers hand as we pray this communal prayer given to us by Christ himself can honor and please the Father.

Truly, I think we should all ask ourselves if it is our own discomfort or unwillingness to hold someone’s hand that is the issue, or if we truly believe that we are dishonoring God by touching one another.

I personally dislike touching strangers and have a hard time with handholding and the sign of peace. I detest them…because of my own issues. But I am called to reach out in Christian fellowship, and overcome my own personal issues to do as Christ would do…so I “get over” myself, and make contact, and recognize that I am called to love these as I love myself. That in Christ these people are just as much my family as those that share my home and name.

For many, that few seconds of touch may be the only positive human contact they receive all week. That may be one of the only times they are acknowledged as human and loveable. The little squeeze that people often give shows me how much it means to them. I see people’s eyes tear up, and faces light up when they are touched. And I am humbled, and confronted with my own unwillingness to be the hands of God, even in this most simple way, in this most simple act.

If St Francis could hug the leper, I can certainly take the hand of the person beside me in the pew and honor OUR Father with them, in spite of my personal discomfort.

That’s just my two cents.

cheddar (who is no longer Catholic, but sometimes attends anyway)

 

[puzzleannie]

In your own mind, what would you consider “common” liturgical abuses? How would you present these abuses to your priest?

the only things that bother me are those that might make the Eucharist invalid or illicit, I don’t get bent out of shape about the peripherals (I would have ulcers if I did). If you go into a parish where the people were instructed by their priest 10 years ago to hold hands, and they are still doing it two priests later, that does not make it an abuse. Get some perspective, folks.

 

[estesbob]

All acts of Christian love and unity honor the Father.

If the marital act is an act of praise and honors the Father, certainly holding a Christian brothers hand as we pray this communal prayer given to us by Christ himself can honor and please the Father.

Truly, I think we should all ask ourselves if it is our own discomfort or unwillingness to hold someone’s hand that is the issue, or if we truly believe that we are dishonoring God by touching one another.

I personally dislike touching strangers and have a hard time with handholding and the sign of peace. I detest them…because of my own issues. )

Or could it truly be that this is a temptest in a teapot and whether one holds hands during the Our Father or not is about last on the list things catholics should concern themsleves . about?

You want to hold hands have it. But please dont try and physcoanalyze those that dont. Personally i am bi-handholded-sometimes I do, sometimes i dont.

 

[netmilsmom]

This particular practice however, which is probably common to the majority of Catholics, has been around for over 30 years…essentially tracking the time of the Pauline Mass with the people saying the Our Father rather than having it said for them by the priest.

That is horrible spin John.
No, it is not done by the majority of Catholics and only in Charismatic mass has it been around for thirty years.

Most parishes it’s been ten or less. Go back to the poll I posted.

 

[netmilsmom]

So did you have to fight off the handholders at the “Our Father”?smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_108v.gif

Nope, I positioned us in the balcony for Sunday and a small front seat that held only us for the holy day!

 

[netmilsmom]

As far as hand holding during the OUR Father…after all, it is OUR Father, not MY Father, and all the language within is communal…forgive US our sins, give US OUR daily bread, etc. It is not contrary for the gathered to acknowledge that the prayer is a community prayer recognizing that WE are united in OUR faith and dependence upon the goodness of God.

My friend, the mass is not about community and I have no need to physically touch someone to pray with them. Our souls pray together.

 

[Elzee]

As far as hand holding during the OUR Father…after all, it is OUR Father, not MY Father, and all the language within is communal…forgive US our sins, give US OUR daily bread, etc. It is not contrary for the gathered to acknowledge that the prayer is a community prayer recognizing that WE are united in OUR faith and dependence upon the goodness of God.

I understand your point, but this is how I personally see it. Jesus Christ has just entered our midst and is now right before us on the altar. I want to focus the “Our Father” on Him, who is now before me - not on my neighbor in an effort to show my community.

If Jesus walked into Church, would people grab their neighbor’s hand or would all attention be on Him and Him alone at that moment? Guess what - He just did!

From the EWTN article linked above in regard to showing commumnity:

While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.
1) It is an inappropriate “sign,” since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God.

 

[KnightforChrist]

My friend, the mass is not about community and I have no need to physically touch someone to pray with them. Our souls pray together.

I like your statement netmil(name removed by moderator)…Our unity is already satisfied by our singing and prayer responses together in union with all Catholics worldwide, not just inside our own churches …

When I think of Unity during a mass, I know that I am unified with all my Catholic brothers and sisters from underground China all the way around the world…All of you…We are saying the same general prayers, reading the same readings and we are partaking as one in one of the greatest miracles known to man…

 

[scylla]

Why don’t we drop the handholding thing and concentrate on the more serious issues which insult our Lord daily.

Such as lack of reverence, communion in the hand, improper use of EEM’s, no Lectors or Acolytes, etc…

The large blatant abuses should be immediately acted upon, catechizing the laity\clergy will take longer.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[ncjohn]

That is horrible spin John.
No, it is not done by the majority of Catholics and only in Charismatic mass has it been around for thirty years.

Most parishes it’s been ten or less. Go back to the poll I posted.

And on what basis do you know these things?

As to your statement that it has only been in the charismatic mass for 30 years, I personally know that to not be true. Every parish I attended in south Florida had it at least by the late 70’s and early 80’s and I never even knew what a Charismatic mass was, much less attended one, until the mid-90’s. Maybe that isn’t universal, but I doubt that it’s atypical. I can say though that I have not been in any church in which it was not present at some level in at least 20 years, and I’ve been in quite a few of them scattered around all over the place. It is definitely the majority of people doing it in every church I’ve been in in the last 10-15 years, with maybe one or two exceptions.

As to your poll, a handful of people at a very conservative site does not constitute any kind of valid sampling.

Regardless, this thread is about liturgical abuses, for which this doesn’t qualify, so I’ll drop the discussion there.

 

[KnightforChrist]

If Jesus walked into Church, would people grab their neighbor’s hand or would all attention be on Him and Him alone at that moment? Guess what - He just did!

You sum it up well !!!

 

[estesbob]

Why don’t we drop the handholding thing and concentrate on the more serious issues which insult our Lord daily.

Such as lack of reverence, communion in the hand, improper use of EEM’s, no Lectors or Acolytes, etc…

The large blatant abuses should be immediately acted upon, catechizing the laity\clergy will take longer.

God Bless
Scylla

Well I dont know it is an abuse BUT I am opn my way tp 4:30 mass and i guarantee you I will not be able to meditate on what is about to happen because of the loud chatter that will be going on before Mass!

 

[netmilsmom]

As to your statement that it has only been in the charismatic mass for 30 years, I personally know that to not be true. Every parish I attended in south Florida had it at least by the late 70’s and early 80’s and I never even knew what a Charismatic mass was, much less attended one, until the mid-90’s. Maybe that isn’t universal, but I doubt that it’s atypical. I can say though that I have not been in any church in which it was not present at some level in at least 20 years, and I’ve been in quite a few of them scattered around all over the place. It is definitely the majority of people doing it in every church I’ve been in in the last 10-15 years, with maybe one or two exceptions.

That’s really ironic John. I just came from a parish in Fort Lauderdale that openly bragged about their long time Charismatic group. Maybe you just didn’t know that it was Charismatic. Seems that whether one traces it to the Charismatics or just a general “love-in” hippy attitude, it is not historically Catholic.

As to your poll, a handful of people at a very conservative site does not constitute any kind of valid sampling.

As I have said to you many times, I have surveyed many different sites. Homeschooling sites, news sites with religion forums, etc. I posted the poll here just for something concrete. This is an innovation that has been guided by liturgical committees for the last 10 years. And I think that I would need to see some proof that the majority of Catholics do this.

Regardless, this thread is about liturgical abuses, for which this doesn’t qualify, so I’ll drop the discussion there.

Ah, but you see it does touch liturgical abuse when one has priests and EMHCs linking with others for handholding. Then it IS being encouraged and IS an abuse. If a few people are doing it in the pews, it is an innovation. But it goes without saying that it was guided by those who were in charge or it wouldn’t have happened. Again it is not historically Catholic, it is historically evangelical.

 

[KnightforChrist]

Well I dont know it is an abuse BUT I am opn my way tp 4:30 mass and i guarantee you I will not be able to meditate on what is about to happen because of the loud chatter that will be going on before Mass!

I agree with that one…I’m in a small parish and the chatter before mass and right after the priest processes out amazes me…

Sadly, I’ve been caught up in this by others who want to grab me and talk knowing that it is irreverant…

Maybe they could start installing flashing signs on the back walls so when everyone turns around to leave its flashing, “MAINTAIN SILENCE”…Sort of like when the radio or talk shown are on the air…I know, sounds stupid but you know…

Gotta run folks, trying to take care of a sick little one !!!