Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

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worldcitizen said:
Revelation 5:9 doesn’t say crucified… It says ‘slain’

“for thou wast slain”.

Oxford dictionary definition of slay is to kill or murder. Crucify means nailing to a cross. The verse says slain not crucified. Big difference. It was the Bab not Christ as Christ was not slain but crucified. The Bab was slain not Christ.

You got your Lambs and punishments mixed up now!!!
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But you said… was also slain like Christ was
 
Techno2000 said:
But you said… was also slain like Christ was
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New song means new revelation. Christ already brought a song. The new song is the Bab’s song.

Must have been a typo. The Word of God is what counts.

REV5.9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
 
worldcitizen said:
That’s why we needed Islam because if you look at the death toll in the world caused by alcohol it’s enormous. The illnesses and deaths both accidental and murders caused by alcohol are criminal.
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Are you in favour of banning cars as well?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Are you in favour of banning cars as well?
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But if a physician prescribes alcohol for a sick person as a medicine we are permitted to drink it. Only not for intoxication as it affects the mind.

Cars? Is there any reason cars should be banned? I can’t think of any.
 
worldcitizen said:
New song means new revelation. Christ already brought a song. The new song is the Bab’s song.

Must have been a typo. The Word of God is what counts.

REV5.9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
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What happened to 5:12?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
What happened to 5:12?

MJ
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REV5.12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This is praising the Bab for sacrificing His life for humanity and preparing the way for Baha’u’llah.
 
worldcitizen said:
REV5.12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This is praising the Bab for sacrificing His life for humanity and preparing the way for Baha’u’llah.
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Was Jesus (slain/crucified) yes or no ?
 
worldcitizen said:
Hi FFG,

For some reason I never saw your post until just now so apologies. Firstly, humanity is imperfect so there will always be those who oppose the truth, however, when they are a minority we can rid the world of war, hatreds and prejudice overall.

Isaiah 2:4 indicates that one day there will be peace so Jesus I don’t believe thought there would never be peace on earth but did want us not to get into disputes by not antagonising our enemies and trying to show them the path of forgiveness and love on an individual basis.

“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” Isaiah 2:4

In saying to love our enemies my understanding is not that we don’t defend our countries or families from hostile oppressors but is in reference to the law governing individuals to one another so if a person hits you on the cheek offer the other cheek so to speak and do not retaliate or escalate tensions but seek peaceful resolution or just walk away.

When 99% of the world are believers and only 1% oppose there will still be a need to love that 1% even though there are no wars anymore so there will one day be peace but people will still have imperfections.
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Thanks worldcitizen,

This is a great example of the importance of ‘how’ we approach the search for truth.

You see, you and I could go back and forth 98 more times, and I’m sure you would find an appropriate reasoning all the way down to 1% for each one of them.

Considering some of the other information in this thread, specifically pertaining to someone mentioning there are millions of descriptions for the ‘Father’ (I did not look back, so if I am incorrect, correct me)…

I don’t doubt that you would find perfectly reasonable answers for all 98 data points.

But, none of them would address the original problem. 99 answers is not ‘true’ true can only be 1.

I highly suggest you click into your browser search and simply type in “I came so that”

Just see what happens.

I’m fairly confident you will not find Jesus’ purpose as ‘humanity to be free of wars and prejudice’. But let me know if you find something remotely close.

With regard to quoting the bible, the problem there (and this is why I don’t do it often) is that the Old Testament reveals the New Testament and the New Testament fulfills the old Testament.

Thus, listing a single verse that you are comfortable with is not helping you gain understanding, as I am certain within 10 verses back or forward of the verse you listed, you would apply a different thought process to interpretation, to make it work for you.

This is not understanding what is, it is getting comfortable with what isn’t.

This is why we put trust in the folks for almost 2000 years (Canon set in the 300’s right?) who have had knowledge and understanding passed down to them through others.

A constant lineage of knowledge, rooting out heresy, and keeping to what is true.

Take care,

Mike
 
worldcitizen said:
New song means new revelation. Christ already brought a song. The new song is the Bab’s song.

Must have been a typo. The Word of God is what counts.

REV5.9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
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I’m sorry, but the Bab doesn’t make the cut. Bab wasn’t even Jewish and didnt come from the tribe of Judah or was of the Lineage of king David. Only Jesus meets this criteria to be the… “lamb of God.”

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 5

http://www.resizr.com/resized/b91a.jpg
 
Techno2000 said:
I’m sorry, but the Bab doesn’t make the cut. Bab wasn’t even Jewish and didnt come from the tribe of Judah or was of the Lineage of king David. Only Jesus meets this criteria to be the… “lamb of God.”

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 5

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The Lamb that was ‘slain’ in Revelation 5:8 is the Bab - no mention is made of this Lamb having to be of the tribe of Judah. The Bab was slain in 1850.

In Revelation 5:5 the Lion of the tribe of Juda Who is of the root of David is NOT slain.

This applies to Baha’u’llah word for word for Baha’u’llah was descended from Jesse the father of David as well as through two wives of Abraham. Baha’u’llah was the only one Who was of the Root of David. And He was not slain but His Mission lasted 40 years.

As Christ came into existence through the Holy Spirit this did not apply to Him.

bahai-library.com/zinky_genealogy_prophets
 
worldcitizen said:
The Lamb that was ‘slain’ in Revelation 5:8 is the Bab - no mention is made of this Lamb having to be of the tribe of Judah. The Bab was slain in 1850.

In Revelation 5:5 the Lion of the tribe of Juda Who is of the root of David is NOT slain.

This applies to Baha’u’llah word for word for Baha’u’llah was descended from Jesse the father of David as well as through two wives of Abraham. Baha’u’llah was the only one Who was of the Root of David. And He was not slain but His Mission lasted 40 years.

As Christ came into existence through the Holy Spirit this did not apply to Him.

bahai-library.com/zinky_genealogy_prophets
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The Scroll and the Lamb
5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign** on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.**
 
Techno2000 said:
The Scroll and the Lamb
5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign** on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.**

To Him Who sits on the throne and the lamb is referring to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. See how exact and precise it is distinguishing between one that is slain and the other not slain which concurs with the fact that the Bab was slain and Baha’u’llah wasn’t. Moreover it states both the Bab and Baha’u’llah were worthy to open its seals. Both the Lamb and the Lion were able to,open the seals meaning power to interpret the Word of the Bible was given to both the Bab and Baha’u’llah which They both did.

So when we use Their interpretations Christians ought to accept them because this is what the Bible says. No mention of the lamb that was crucified because this is a new song and the lamb that was crucified was Christ.
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worldcitizen said:
To Him Who sits on the throne and the lamb is referring to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. See how exact and precise it is distinguishing between one that is slain and the other not slain which concurs with the fact that the Bab was slain and Baha’u’llah wasn’t. Moreover it states both the Bab and Baha’u’llah were worthy to open its seals. Both the Lamb and the Lion were able to,open the seals meaning power to interpret the Word of the Bible was given to both the Bab and Baha’u’llah which They both did.

So when we use Their interpretations Christians ought to accept them because this is what the Bible says. No mention of the lamb that was crucified because this is a new song and the lamb that was crucified was Christ.
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You have been duped David… The Emperor has No Clothes !!!
 
Jesus of Nazareth was in NO WAY a manifestation of God in the sense that the bahai use the word manifestation.

the only reason for anyone to call Jesus a manifestation instead of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is to diminish His glory and to justify calling a created person His equal.

now you know why bab and bahaullah created the bahi concept of manifestation. they knew that they had to diminish the glory of the Incarnated Second Person of the Holy Trinity if there stories were to be believed. if they had not tried to diminish the Glory of God, their message would have been easily recognized as the creation of creatures instead of the creation of God.
 
worldcitizen said:
To Him Who sits on the throne and the lamb is referring to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. See how exact and precise it is distinguishing between one that is slain and the other not slain which concurs with the fact that the Bab was slain and Baha’u’llah wasn’t. Moreover it states both the Bab and Baha’u’llah were worthy to open its seals. Both the Lamb and the Lion were able to,open the seals meaning power to interpret the Word of the Bible was given to both the Bab and Baha’u’llah which They both did.

So when we use Their interpretations Christians ought to accept them because this is what the Bible says. No mention of the lamb that was crucified because this is a new song and the lamb that was crucified was Christ.
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I see too many discrepancies to believe the Baha’is clams. To think of Baha’u’llah as being Jesus’s second coming is delusional. Christ’s gave us warnings and it apparently fell on deaf ears throughout the ages.
Jesus had temptations from satan which is in Luke 4:1-13. Also Jesus expels demons/evil spirits in Matthew 8:31 & Luke 11:14.

The third temptation of Jesus from satan is a temptation I believe the Bab or Baha’u’llah would accepted this temptation.
 
only Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, only Jesus came down from heaven, only Jesus raised His physical body from the dead and left the tomb empty, and only Jesus ascended body and soul in to heaven.

both the bab and bahaullah were conceived by sinful men and women. neither bab nor bahaullah came down from heaven. neither bab nor bahaullah raised themselves from the dead, both were buried and their bodies returned to the dust from which they were created. neither bab nor bahaullah ascended body and soul in to heaven.
 
human beings who never know bab or bahuallah suffer no losses in this world or in heaven.

people who never know Jesus also never know the Holy Trinity, the True God. they never know that their Creator’s love for them far exceeds any love that they can imagine. they never know that God’s wish for them is for them to, individually and uniquely, live with Him for all eternity. they never know their sins are forgiven.

lack of knowledge of bab and bahaullah have no negative consequences for a human being. lack of knowledge of Jesus Christ leaves human beings in a state of sin and confusion and without hope or supernatural Love.
 
eddie_too said:
Jesus of Nazareth was in NO WAY a manifestation of God in the sense that the bahai use the word manifestation.

the only reason for anyone to call Jesus a manifestation instead of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is to diminish His glory and to justify calling a created person His equal.

now you know why bab and bahaullah created the bahi concept of manifestation. they knew that they had to diminish the glory of the Incarnated Second Person of the Holy Trinity if there stories were to be believed. if they had tried to diminish the Glory of God, their message would have been easily recognized as the creation of creatures instead of the creation of God.
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Right Bahaism can’t work if Jesus is God, because who would need Bahaism. 🤷
 
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