Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[Servant19]

So when Jesus manifested as Baha’u’llah, that is when Jesus became God too ?

When the Baha’i Faith refers to “God” it is a reference to the “Essence of God”

Neither Baha’u’llah or Jesus are the “Essence of God”
Imagine the sun. The essence of the human body (not the human being, just the physical body) as it forms in the womb. The essence of the physical human body is not the brain, or the heart, or the blood, or the cells or the mitochondria, or the cell nucleus. It is the DNA. That is the essence.

What is the first fruit of that DNA? It is the expression of its code. The DNA and its expression give rise to a creation we call “the human body”

I like to think of God as like the DNA, the Word (i.e the eternal Manifestation of God) as the expression of that DNA code through whom the whole of creation comes into existence.

Without the “expression of the code” there is no creation.
The “Creative Agent” is the eternal Manifestation of God.

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[JimmyDFG]

Only if one looks at names and worldly things Jimmy

In Spirit they are one and the same. The observing of names is a fleshly observation.

Look for the Spirit which gives life.

What do you understand from “looking for the Spirit”?

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As a Catholic I can see they are not “one and the same”. Both have different teachings, its clear to see and understand. If you believe they are the same why are you not a Christian?

The Spirit is given to us through Baptism (vitae spiritualis ianua).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
1216 (9) Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.

Servant, are you “looking for the Spirit”?

 

[Servant19]

As a Catholic I can see they are not “one and the same”. Both have different teachings, its clear to see and understand. If you believe they are the same why are you not a Christian?

The Spirit is given to us through Baptism (vitae spiritualis ianua).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
1216 (9) Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.

Servant, are you “looking for the Spirit”?

Of course Jimmy

Which teaching of the Baha’i Faith is not the same. Let’s focus on some of them, one at a time.

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[Techno2000]

When the Baha’i Faith refers to “God” it is a reference to the “Essence of God”

Neither Baha’u’llah or Jesus are the “Essence of God”
Imagine the sun. The essence of the human body (not the human being, just the physical body) as it forms in the womb. The essence of the physical human body is not the brain, or the heart, or the blood, or the cells or the mitochondria, or the cell nucleus. It is the DNA. That is the essence.

What is the first fruit of that DNA? It is the expression of its code. The DNA and its expression give rise to a creation we call “the human body”

I like to think of God as like the DNA, the Word (i.e the eternal Manifestation of God) as the expression of that DNA code through whom the whole of creation comes into existence.

Without the “expression of the code” there is no creation.
The “Creative Agent” is the eternal Manifestation of God.

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So if Baha’u’llah is not ever the “Essence of God” then he is just a man so why are you praying to a dead man as if he is God ?

 

[worldcitizen]

So can you explain to me why Servant 19 prays to Baha’u’llah ?

We are allowed to pray to Baha’u’llah ‘as a Manifestation of God’ but not as the essence of God Himself.

Can you see the distinction made?

I mostly pray to God. That’s my preference. Look at all the Bahai prayer books and tell me if you can find one prayer addressed to Baha’u’llah.

All the prayers of the Bab, Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha are addressed to God or Lord. Not one of them are addressed to Baha’u’llah but we are allowed in our hearts to pray to Baha’u’llah.

Google Bahai Prayers PDF and you can examine the prayers for yourself.

Baha’u’llah is NOT God. He is a ‘reflection’ of God. Two different things. We can see God in Baha’u’llah like we see the ‘reflection’ of the sun in a mirror but the mirror is not the sun.

If I see Joey in a mirror I can say Joey is in the mirror but you are not really in the mirror only your reflection.

This is how Baha’is understand the trinity.

 

[Servant19]

So if Baha’u’llah is not ever the “Essence of God” then he is just a man so why are you praying to a dead man as if he is God ?

Because there’s a lot more to creation than just God and man.

Please remember the verse in Timothy, there is the MEDIATOR between God and man.

What is a mediator Techno?

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[worldcitizen]

Dear Catholic friends,

The other day I wrongfully posted a link to an anti Catholic website on this forum and I want to apologise and say sorry if I upset anyone and ask your forgiveness.

I was quoting what they were saying about Bahai and had no idea they were anti Catholic until I was informed by the moderator, if I knew I would never have posted that here.

Sincere apologies

David

 

[Servant19]

Hi Martin,

Please feel free to continue this conversation here:

I rebuked WC? Hardly. You’re still focusing on one part of John 4 when it continues with Jesus who is supported by the Samaritans as the real Savior of the World. Follow the sequence. Do you even know why Jesus even talks immediately of her husband? There’s a lot going on, than just metaphors.

MJ

I totally agree Martin. Jesus WAS the Saviour of the world when John wrote his Gospel. But Christ, the Word, the Son IS eternally the Saviour of the world.

Do you see the difference?

Can we please continue this on the other thread?

FRIENDS, PLEASE, let us not deviate from the thread subject…

.
.

You don’t even know the difference between Metaphors and Spiritual. They are not the same.

MJ

Please share your thoughts…

Kam

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[worldcitizen]

So if Baha’u’llah is not ever the “Essence of God” then he is just a man so why are you praying to a dead man as if he is God ?

Sorry for interrupting but this is exposing the Bahai concept of prayer in detail

“…We must not be rigid about praying; there is not a set of rules
governing it; the main thing is we must start out with the right
concept of God, the Manifestation, the Master, the Guardian – we can
turn, in thought, to any one of them when we pray. For instance you can
ask Baha’u’llah for some thing, or, thinking of Him, ask God for it.
The same is true of the Master or the Guardian. You can turn in thought to
either of them and then ask their intercession, or pray direct to
God. As long as you don’t confuse their stations, and make them all equal,
it does not matter much how you orient your thoughts.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, July 24, 1946)

 

[worldcitizen]

So if Baha’u’llah is not ever the “Essence of God” then he is just a man so why are you praying to a dead man as if he is God ?

Also, Baha’u’llah is NOT superior to Jesus!!!

So you understand we cannot exalt Baha’u’llah above Jesus as it is forbidden to do so.

“Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. . . .”

Excerpt From: Revelation. “Baha’u’llah’s.” iBooks.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi Martin,

Please feel free to continue this conversation here:

Please share your thoughts…

Kam

.

That’s your job. Tell us about our Scripture.

Start with John4 step by step.

But I can get the ball rolling.

Where is Jesus at this point in time? Where was he going? Why is he in Samaria?Why is John wanting to write about this? Why is is important to know that Jesus came to the place Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. Jacob’s well was there. So what’s going on?

You can also get help from your authority.


MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Sorry for interrupting but this is exposing the Bahai concept of prayer in detail

“…We must not be rigid about praying; there is not a set of rules
governing it; the main thing is we must start out with the right
concept of God, the Manifestation, the Master, the Guardian – we can
turn, in thought, to any one of them when we pray. For instance you can
ask Baha’u’llah for some thing, or, thinking of Him, ask God for it.
The same is true of the Master or the Guardian. You can turn in thought to
either of them and then ask their intercession, or pray direct to
God. As long as you don’t confuse their stations, and make them all equal,
it does not matter much how you orient your thoughts.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, July 24, 1946)

Worldcitizen, what is it that is rigid?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Another question, worldcitizen, have you or your faith read the Book of Wisdom? If yes, when did your faith start taking it as scripture?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

From the other thread talking one on one, heart to heart with worldcitizen when I asked what is the Mass and what happened why he stopped Holy Communion. Anyone can chime in.

Worldcitizen said:

John 6:35

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Thus Christ expresses “coming to him” as eating; and “believing in him” as drinking. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him."

I believe in every Word Christ spoke in this passage but I interpret that verse symbolically not literally. So each and every Bahai and Muslim in the world who believes in Jesus is eating and drinking of Him as in coming to Him and believing in Him.

Again… To ‘drink’ is to believe. By this Jesus meant the ‘spirit’ as below.

John 7:37-39

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

And yet again… Jesus ‘meat’ is to do the ‘will of God’

John 4:31-34

31In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. 32But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. 33Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

It’s abundantly clear beyond doubt to me that Christ spoke metaphorically not literally and that His Words meant simply to believe and obey Him to receive spiritual nourishment. "

I wanted to say this is all over the place. From John 6 to 7 to 4. Picking verses separately. Is this how exegesis works? No.

Because for instance John 6 : 35-37 Jesus is talking but he hadn’t finished…

38 onwards: 38 For ** I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.** 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. **54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

So Jesus is going deeper and deeper into what he means. More but for now that will do to get some idea.

So what is the Mass for? I’ve given so many hints above.

MJ

 

[worldcitizen]

Worldcitizen, what is it that is rigid?

MJ

Hi Martin,
T
I don’t know the question or the content of the letter he was replying to.

I can assume that someone probably asked him what was the right way of Bahai praying or asked if there was a certain formula or ritual Baha’is should adopt when praying and it seems that he is saying there are no rigid or set in concrete, if you like, forms of how a Baha’i must pray but he/she can adopt a variety of methods indicating flexibility.

I pray mostly to God but other Baha’is pray to Baha’u’llah so we are free to choose how we pray with no rigid or set from or ritual.

 

[worldcitizen]

From the other thread talking one on one, heart to heart with worldcitizen when I asked what is the Mass and what happened why he stopped Holy Communion. Anyone can chime in.

Worldcitizen

Thus Christ expresses “coming to him” as eating; and “believing in him” as drinking. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him."

Again… To ‘drink’ is to believe. By this Jesus meant the ‘spirit’ as below.

John 7:37-39

And yet again… Jesus ‘meat’ is to do the ‘will of God’

John 4:31-34

31In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. 32But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. 33Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

It’s abundantly clear beyond doubt to me that Christ spoke metaphorically not literally and that His Words meant simply to believe and obey Him to receive spiritual nourishment. "

I wanted to say this is all over the place. From John 6 to 7 to 4. Picking verses separately. Is this how exegesis works? No.

Because for instance John 6 : 35-37 Jesus is talking but he hadn’t finished…

38 onwards: 38 For ** I have come down from heaven** not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. **54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

So Jesus is going deeper and deeper into what he means. More but for now that will do to get some idea.

So what is the Mass for? I’ve given so many hints above.

MJ

Mass to a Catholic I understood a long time ago was to partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus.

But I never thought to post that because my understanding is Jesus is meaning to believe in Him as eating his flesh and drinking His blood as following His Teachings

But for a Baha’i we refer to the Book that we believe broke the seals of Daniel and Revelation and apply it’s meanings to the Bible as we believe it was written by the Lion , the Root of David and explains the true meanings.

So when you ask for my interpretation I always refer to the Book of Certitude and these things mentioned by Christ are explained to be symbolical and misunderstood.

Mass says the bread and wine is changed into the flesh and blood of Christ but I believe that to be untrue and that nothing is changed at all. The bread and wine at mass always remains bread and wine and never becomes anything else. I believe it is a superstitious understanding based upon a misinterpretation of the above verses.

That is my conviction after having been a Catholic for 15 years and loving the spirit of mass and after being a Baha’i for 40 years and having studied deeply the Book of Certitude. That is my conclusion but I respect you beliefs and views as I once had those views myself.

 

[MartinJordan]

Mass to a Catholic I understood a long time ago was to partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus.

Again you have missed it. That is not telling me that you understand it. Anyone can state the same from web searching . But what does it mean? Either You’ve forgotten or left without understanding. Even I left the Church too but it was a Muslim (who was trying to convince me otherwise that Jesus was only a prophet) made me realize(which was not what he expected !) I should go back.

But I never thought to post that because my understanding is Jesus is meaning to believe in Him as eating his flesh and drinking His blood as following His Teachings

But you’ve not let him finish speaking. It’s quite apparent that possibly you are afraid to dwelve deeper into his words. Don’t you want to admit this?

But for a Baha’i we refer to the Book that we believe broke the seals of Daniel and Revelation and apply it’s meanings to the Bible as we believe it was written by the Lion , the Root of David and explains the authoritative meanings of these verses.

It is strange you can jump to John’s revelation who provided John 6, which you’ve thus far not completed.

So when you ask for my interpretation I always refer to an authority. According to the Book of Certitude these things mentioned by Christ are definitely symbolical.

Has this BOC dwelve deeper than John 6: 35-37?

Mass says the bread and wine is changed into the flesh and blood of Christ but I believe that to be untrue and that nothing is changed at all. The bread and wine at mass always remains bread and wine and never becomes anything else. I believe it is a superstitious understanding based in a misinterpretation of the above verses.

Again you’ve not dwelt further than certain verses.

That is my conviction after having been a Catholic for 15 years and loving the spirit of mass and after being a Baha’i for 40 years and having studied deeply the Book of Certitude. That is my conclusion but I respect you beliefs and views as I once had those views myself.

My belief is to let Jesus speak. Are you respecting that point. I know you mean well for me however can you be fair to me to continue with John 6? 38 onwards?

MJ

 

[worldcitizen]

Again you have missed it. That is not telling me that you understand it. Anyone can state the same from web searching . But what does it mean? Either You’ve forgotten or left without understanding. Even I left the Church too but it was a Muslim (who was trying to convince me otherwise that Jesus was only a prophet) made me realize(which was not what he expected !) I should go back.

But you’ve not let him finish speaking. It’s quite apparent that possibly you are afraid to dwelve deeper into his words. Don’t you want to admit this?

It is strange you can jump to John’s revelation who provided John 6, which you’ve thus far not completed.

Has this BOC dwelve deeper than John 6: 35-37?

Again you’ve not dwelt further than certain verses.

My belief is to let Jesus speak. Are you respecting that point. I know you mean well for me however can you be fair to me to continue with John 6? 38 onwards?

MJ

Mass is many things. It’s union with Christ, it’s a renewal of (our covenant with Him) commitment and belief, it’s a nourishment of the soul. It’s a remembrance of His sacrifice for us.We remember that He gave His flesh and blood for us and that He died that we might have life. Spiritual food and fellowship.

These are all the things I know mass is about and have known since a child but I don’t know which one in particular you are referring to.

As deep as you like.

The Book of Certitude bestows spiritual insight not a word for word commentary. It unseals or breaks the seals so we know which is symbolical and which is literal. The ‘keys’ it gives apply to all the Holy Books not just the Bible.

 

[MartinJordan]

Mass is many things. It’s union with Christ, it’s a renewal of (our covenant with Him) commitment and belief, it’s a nourishment of the soul. It’s a remembrance of His sacrifice for us.We remember that He gave His flesh and blood for us and that He died that we might have life. Spiritual food and fellowship.

These are all the things I know mass is about and have known since a child but I don’t know which one in particular you are referring to.

As deep as you like.

What you’ve mentioned is still not what the Mass is for. What you’ve did say was all about Jesus (his oneness) along with his sacrifice for us but that is WRONG. And missed
several parts of the Mass. You’ve also somehow missed even the most basic prayer that initiates the Mass. This is a massive clue. I mean really right in front.

I think it will do good for you to go back to the Mass to see what you’ve glaringly misunderstood about the purpose of Mass.

The Book of Certitude bestows spiritual insight not a word for word commentary. It unseals or breaks the seals so we know which is symbolical and which is literal. The ‘keys’ it gives apply to all the Holy Books not just the Bible.

Then it is clear Bahaism is NOT the fulfillment of Catholicism. The NT you’ve shared is missing too many things.

 

[worldcitizen]

What you’ve mentioned is still not what the Mass is for. What you’ve did say was all about Jesus (his oneness) along with his sacrifice for us but that is WRONG. And missed
several parts of the Mass. You’ve also somehow missed even the most basic prayer that initiates the Mass. This is a massive clue. I mean really right in front.

I think it will do good for you to go back to the Mass to see what you’ve glaringly misunderstood about the purpose of Mass.

Then it is clear Bahaism is NOT the fulfillment of Catholicism. The NT you’ve shared is missing too many things.

The Mass was established to commemorate the Last Supper as Christ had said to do in remembrance of Him. Many Christian churches break bread in different ways to commemorate it.