Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist

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It seems to me that you are both shying away from the teachings of your own church. The catholic doctrine does indeed teach that the Mass is perpetuation of the sacrifice of Christ. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood.

1388 . . . As the Second Vatican Council says: “That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest’s communion, receive the Lord’s Body from the same sacrifice, is warmly recommended.”

1651 . . . They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, . . .

The language of the Catechism is unmistakable. It categorically identifies the Mass as a sacrifice, period. It is not a “memorial” of that sacrifice, not even a “re-enactment” of it; it is itself a sacrifice. And that sacrifice is that of Jesus Christ, who is repeatedly or perpetually offered every time the Mass is celebrated. There is a big difference between saying that something is a “memorial” of something, and saying that it is the thing itself. The Catechism defines the Mass as being the thing itself. If we reduce the above passages to its core elements, the meaning becomes clearer:

The victim [Christ] . . . now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different. . . . the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.

The Mass is at the same time . . . the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated.

They should be encouraged to . . . attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, . . .

The latest Oxford English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make something continue indefinitely”. The slightly older 1990 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make perpetual”; and it defines “perpetual” to mean: “1 eternal; lasting forever or indefinitely. 2 continuous, uninterrupted. 3 frequent, much repeated”. The Collins English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “to cause to continue”. The Mass is designed to perpetuate the sacrifice of Christ. It makes it to continue. It makes it “continuous and uninterrupted” and “frequent and much repeated”. That is the definition of the Mass.
But you are glossing over one very important part of all of this.

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice:

Meaning. It is the same sacrifice. Each time we celebrate the Mass, we are standing at the foot of the cross. Just as Christ trancends all time, so does his sacrifice.

Come on now, you can do better than this. You have fallen for typical anti-Catholic rhetoric with this. Many non-Catholic Christians have tried this premise, and have failed. Just as you have here.

Try reading this. catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp
 
It seems to me that you are both shying away from the teachings of your own church. The catholic doctrine does indeed teach that the Mass is perpetuation of the sacrifice of Christ. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood.

1388 . . . As the Second Vatican Council says: “That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest’s communion, receive the Lord’s Body from the same sacrifice, is warmly recommended.”

1651 . . . They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, . . .
The language of the Catechism is unmistakable. It categorically identifies the Mass as a sacrifice, period. It is not a “memorial” of that sacrifice, not even a “re-enactment” of it; it is itself a sacrifice. And that sacrifice is that of Jesus Christ, who is repeatedly or perpetually offered every time the Mass is celebrated. There is a big difference between saying that something is a “memorial” of something, and saying that it is the thing itself. The Catechism defines the Mass as being the thing itself. If we reduce the above passages to its core elements, the meaning becomes clearer:
The victim [Christ] . . . now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different. . . . the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.

The Mass is at the same time . . . the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated.

They should be encouraged to . . . attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, . . .
The latest Oxford English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make something continue indefinitely”. The slightly older 1990 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make perpetual”; and it defines “perpetual” to mean: “1 eternal; lasting forever or indefinitely. 2 continuous, uninterrupted. 3 frequent, much repeated”. The Collins English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “to cause to continue”. The Mass is designed to perpetuate the sacrifice of Christ. It makes it to continue. It makes it “continuous and uninterrupted” and “frequent and much repeated”. That is the definition of the Mass.
The same sacrifice once for all. This is so widely known that it is not even a thought for a catholic. Although some who may not understand their own faith, that would be another issue. I have heard this from protestants. This is where the lds got the idea. Its simply false period as others here have said.
 
I don’t know if has been asked, but, why does the LDS church use water in their sacrament instead of wine?
 
I don’t know if has been asked, but, why does the LDS church use water in their sacrament instead of wine?
The Book of Mormon refers to wine, rather than water.

3 Nephi 18:
1 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded his Disciples that they should bring forth some bread and wine unto him.
2 And while they were gone for bread and wine, he commanded the multitude that they should sit themselves down upon the earth.
3 And when the Disciples had come with bread and wine, he took of the bread and brake and blessed it; and he gave unto the Disciples and commanded that they should eat.

They must have received a new revelation since then or didn’t think what Jesus commanded was important, but I’ll let someone from the LDS explain.
 
It seems to me that you are both shying away from the teachings of your own church. The catholic doctrine does indeed teach that the Mass is perpetuation of the sacrifice of Christ. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood.

1388 . . . As the Second Vatican Council says: “That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest’s communion, receive the Lord’s Body from the same sacrifice, is warmly recommended.”

1651 . . . They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, . . .

The language of the Catechism is unmistakable. It categorically identifies the Mass as a sacrifice, period. It is not a “memorial” of that sacrifice, not even a “re-enactment” of it; it is itself a sacrifice. And that sacrifice is that of Jesus Christ, who is repeatedly or perpetually offered every time the Mass is celebrated. There is a big difference between saying that something is a “memorial” of something, and saying that it is the thing itself. The Catechism defines the Mass as being the thing itself. If we reduce the above passages to its core elements, the meaning becomes clearer:
I have been staring at your comments for several long minutes now and am at a total loss. This is becoming akin to speaking to someone from a different planet. What are you talking about? Shying away? I would like to shout it to the whole world. As has already been said, the very quotes you use prove you wrong. I have re-read this several times actually in an effort to see what could be so misleading about what I have said or what the Catechism says. I’m not interested in playing games, zerinus. Just what are you trying to do here?
 
I have been staring at your comments for several long minutes now and am at a total loss. This is becoming akin to speaking to someone from a different planet. What are you talking about? Shying away? I would like to shout it to the whole world. As has already been said, the very quotes you use prove you wrong. I have re-read this several times actually in an effort to see what could be so misleading about what I have said or what the Catechism says. I’m not interested in playing games, zerinus. Just what are you trying to do here?
I am trying to tell it as it is. The Catechism regards Mass as a sacrifice, period—which of course it is not. I have nothing more to add to it.
 
I am trying to tell it as it is. The Catechism regards Mass as a sacrifice, period—which of course it is not. I have nothing more to add to it.
Of course we regard the Mass as a sacrifice. Has anyone argued that we don’t? It is the ONE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST, not many sacrifices of Christ. The priest offers that one particular sacrifice at each Mass, not a different sacrifice at each Mass. I just don’t see what is so difficult about understanding this, whether you agree or not, and I’m running out of ways to explain it to you. You are not “telling it as it is”, you are telling it the way you wish it was. When every Catholic on this thread and the Catechism of The Catholic Church are all telling you the same thing, how can you then respond that we believe something else? I’m sorry but that is preposterous. WE DO NOT RE-SACRIFICE CHRIST AT EACH MASS. Ok? That is not what we believe and it is not what the Church teaches. Why can’t you accept that?
 
:)Hi Z. im going to try again. this is not only very difficult to understand from your perspective, but it is also very difficult to explain from ours. what happens at the mass transcends time and space. as steve pointed out, they overlap. so that what is happening is not A sacrifice, but THE sacrifice. we are in reality at the foot of the cross. the Sacrifice Christ made was once and for all. what we are experiencing is not a re-enactment. we are placed at that point in time when these events took place. its very difficult to explain so please be patient with us. i may not even be explaining it in a way that can be understood. i understand it, ive experienced it. but to relate it to others is difficult. the Church is One. this is a very deep mystery, and not easy to grasp. Peace 🙂
 
:)Hi Z. im going to try again. this is not only very difficult to understand from your perspective, but it is also very difficult to explain from ours. what happens at the mass transcends time and space. as steve pointed out, they overlap. so that what is happening is not A sacrifice, but THE sacrifice. we are in reality at the foot of the cross. the Sacrifice Christ made was once and for all. what we are experiencing is not a re-enactment. we are placed at that point in time when these events took place. its very difficult to explain so please be patient with us. i may not even be explaining it in a way that can be understood. i understand it, ive experienced it. but to relate it to others is difficult. the Church is One. this is a very deep mystery, and not easy to grasp. Peace 🙂
Thank you.
 
Thank you.
your welcome. but we are only scratching the surface. this is so difficult to explain, i will gladly help out where i can on this. i also study Kabbalah. so i am somewhat familiar with the more mystical aspects of Catholocism. what happens is so deep and mysterious, that it is almost indescribable. i keep running into things in my Catholic walk, that are very difficult to put into words. but this subject above all others is what seperates us i believe from our protestant bretheren. and i do not lay the blame on them. many have never heard. Peace 🙂
 
Back when I was in RCIA, I remember that one of the teachers described it this way ~ at Mass we re-PRESENT the sacrifice. We make it present. It is not a re-sacrifice, which is heresy.
 
your welcome. but we are only scratching the surface. this is so difficult to explain, i will gladly help out where i can on this. i also study Kabbalah. so i am somewhat familiar with the more mystical aspects of Catholocism. what happens is so deep and mysterious, that it is almost indescribable. i keep running into things in my Catholic walk, that are very difficult to put into words. but this subject above all others is what seperates us i believe from our protestant bretheren. and i do not lay the blame on them. many have never heard. Peace 🙂
You are so right. To try to comprehend that heaven and earth actually meet; that the saints and angels participate with us at each Mass; that Christ gives his life to us as if we were looking into his eyes while he was hanging there; that we enter into the most intimate relationship possible with our God; that our God would even want to enter into such a relationship with us; eternity folding in over time and space. It is beyond human comprehension. How could anything be more sacred?
 
You are so right. To try to comprehend that heaven and earth actually meet; that the saints and angels participate with us at each Mass; that Christ gives his life to us as if we were looking into his eyes while he was hanging there; that we enter into the most intimate relationship possible with our God; that our God would even want to enter into such a relationship with us; eternity folding in over time and space. It is beyond human comprehension. How could anything be more sacred?
AMEN! :signofcross:
 
Back when I was in RCIA, I remember that one of the teachers described it this way ~ at Mass we re-PRESENT the sacrifice. We make it present. It is not a re-sacrifice, which is heresy.
Melanie, can I ask how difficult this was for you to grasp when you started RCIA. I realize that someone hearing the Catholic view for the first time would have to take a long pause. It is truly a mystery and I don’t think we could probe the depths of it completely if we lived for a million years. I’d love to hear your views.

Thanks.
 
Melanie, can I ask how difficult this was for you to grasp when you started RCIA. I realize that someone hearing the Catholic view for the first time would have to take a long pause. It is truly a mystery and I don’t think we could probe the depths of it completely if we lived for a million years. I’d love to hear your views.

Thanks.
It seemed completely logical to me. It didn’t make me pause for even a moment. But then, this was something stated towards the end of our RCIA period, when we had the Passover seder, so I had a lot of time to learn. Our RCIA lasted over a year, plus I was previously Episcopalian, and I had had several Catholic family members over the course of my life (although by the time I was confirmed, they were mostly all gone) so I knew a lot about the Catholic faith from the start, although I did not come to appreciate the fullness of the faith until well into the RCIA period.

One of the things I love about the Catholic faith is that it makes sense. And we don’t have to hide our doctrine, we are delighted to let people know what it is.
 
It seemed completely logical to me. It didn’t make me pause for even a moment. But then, this was something stated towards the end of our RCIA period, when we had the Passover seder, so I had a lot of time to learn. Our RCIA lasted over a year, plus I was previously Episcopalian, and I had had several Catholic family members over the course of my life (although by the time I was confirmed, they were mostly all gone) so I knew a lot about the Catholic faith from the start, although I did not come to appreciate the fullness of the faith until well into the RCIA period.

One of the things I love about the Catholic faith is that it makes sense. And we don’t have to hide our doctrine, we are delighted to let people know what it is.
As a cradle Catholic, obviously, I was taught and believed in the real presence. As I grew and began studying and exploring these mysteries more fully, the light just became brighter and brighter. I didn’t really mean “pause” in the sense of doubting. More in the sense of reading John Paul, II’s “Theology of the Body”. I would get through several paragraphs and have to put the book down just to try and digest it all.

I completely agree about the Catholic faith making sense and as I told zerinus, I would like to shout it to all the world. We certainly have nothing to hide.

Thank you so much for your comments.

God bless.
 
I am trying to tell it as it is. The Catechism regards Mass as a sacrifice, period—which of course it is not. I have nothing more to add to it.
We’re talking about what Catholics believe right? So if the Catechism states that the Mass is a sacrifice, then it is, whether you believe it or not.
 
It seems to me that you are both shying away from the teachings of your own church. The catholic doctrine does indeed teach that the Mass is perpetuation of the sacrifice of Christ. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood.

1388 . . . As the Second Vatican Council says: “That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest’s communion, receive the Lord’s Body from the same sacrifice, is warmly recommended.”

1651 . . . They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, . . .

The language of the Catechism is unmistakable. It categorically identifies the Mass as a sacrifice, period. It is not a “memorial” of that sacrifice, not even a “re-enactment” of it; it is itself a sacrifice. And that sacrifice is that of Jesus Christ, who is repeatedly or perpetually offered every time the Mass is celebrated. There is a big difference between saying that something is a “memorial” of something, and saying that it is the thing itself. The Catechism defines the Mass as being the thing itself. If we reduce the above passages to its core elements, the meaning becomes clearer:

The victim [Christ] . . . now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different. . . . the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.

The Mass is at the same time . . . the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated.

They should be encouraged to . . . attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, . . .

The latest Oxford English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make something continue indefinitely”. The slightly older 1990 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “make perpetual”; and it defines “perpetual” to mean: “1 eternal; lasting forever or indefinitely. 2 continuous, uninterrupted. 3 frequent, much repeated”. The Collins English Dictionary defines “perpetuate” to mean: “to cause to continue”. The Mass is designed to perpetuate the sacrifice of Christ. It makes it to continue. It makes it “continuous and uninterrupted” and “frequent and much repeated”. That is the definition of the Mass.
You must be kidding. Catholics believe that the Mass is a sacrifice. We do not believe that is a fresh sacrifice of Jesus, where He is sacrificed “anew”, which is what you said. If that was true, then that would mean that there is more than one sacrifice: Calvary, and every Mass. That makes at least 2 sacrifices. But you do realize that your first Catechism quote shows that your statement that I was responding to was false:
**
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice**

Sorry, you were wrong. There is only one sacrifice, so Christ can’t be sacrificed anew, as you claimed.
 
Of course we regard the Mass as a sacrifice. Has anyone argued that we don’t?
The trouble is that there is no scriptural basis for that.
It is the ONE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST, not many sacrifices of Christ.
Which doesn’t make make sense. The “one” sacrifice was offered “once,” and need not be offered again, in whatever guise you want to consider it:

Romans 6:

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Hebrews 7:

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

The sacrifice was offered once, and once only, and need not be offered again, in any guise or shape or form again.
The priest offers that one particular sacrifice at each Mass, not a different sacrifice at each Mass.
Which is nonsensical and unscriptural. Where does it say in the scriptures that the “same” sacrifice needs to be offered more than “once”?
I just don’t see what is so difficult about understanding this, whether you agree or not, and I’m running out of ways to explain it to you.
Not only I don’t understand it, I don’t think you understand it. I don’t think that anybody does. I don’t think that anybody can. I find it even more difficult to see why it is so difficult for you to understand what the scriptures are saying on the subject.
I’m sorry but that is preposterous. WE DO NOT RE-SACRIFICE CHRIST AT EACH MASS. Ok? That is not what we believe and it is not what the Church teaches. Why can’t you accept that?
But you “perpetuate” it, however you want to understand that. There is no scriptural basis for this. Where does it say that the sacrifice of Christ needs to be “perpetuated”? The word of the Lord is clear on that. The sacrifice was offered once, and the sacrament is in remembrance of that sacrifice, not a repetition, perpetuation, or reenactment of that sacrifice:

Luke 22:

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that?
 
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