Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist

[zerinus]

You don’t see a contradiction? Jesus, who used the elements of unleavened bread and wine in accordance with the Passover, of which He is the Lamb, and following in the line of Melchizedek, who also used bread and wine, then supposedly comes to another part of the world and says “I don’t care what you use as long as you remember me?”. Please. Why would he tell them something different than he told the twelve Apostles?

And the same Jesus has now told us that what you eat and drink is not important, as long as you do it with an eye single to His glory. And as Caprica repeatedly pointed out in other threads, the Eastern Catholic Church uses leavened bread, who are in communion with Rome. You are beginning to sound like the old Jews who worried about tithing mint and cumin, who condemned Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath day, who wouldn’t eat with unwashen hands, who cleansed the outside of the cup and platter, but left the inside of the cup unclean.

You have a point. However that would require more a thesis than a thread. For the sake of focus and brevity it is probably best to stick with one contradition at a time, don’t you think?

Agreed; let’s see what contradictions you had in mind.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Don’t know for sure, but if you mean Dianaiad (and unless she’s converted since I last checked ) , I’d be amazed if she admitted that the LDS has no prophets,

 

[ChristMySavior]

And the same Jesus has now told us that what you eat and drink is not important, as long as you do it with an eye single to His glory.

Then lets start using mozzarella cheese on crackers and take shots of vodka.

“Beware of False Prophets”

 

[SteveVH]

And the same Jesus has now told us that what you eat and drink is not important…

And there, my friend, is the contradiction.

Agreed; let’s see what contradictions you had in mind.

If you think I’m going to make a career out pointing out contradictions in the BoM, think again. Off the top of my head we could address eternal marriage, the Godhead, Adam and Eve, Hell, spirit children, the Great Apostacy…, pretty much everything you believe and most of which has already been discussed on this forum ad infinitum. Of course you will respond that those portions of the Bible which do not align with your beliefs were tainted by the Catholic Church and clarified by the BoM. A very convenient position to take. You will respond with page upon page of quotes from the BoM in order to prove your case, which will mean nothing to non-Mormons as we believe it is nothing but the product of an over active imagination at best.

Unless we can get to the point of agreeing to use the one book with which we have common ground, the Bible, the arguments are nothing more than an exercise in futlity. I understand that you derive your beliefs from Mormon documents, but they are not convincing to the rest of us. I would not use the Bible to prove the existence of God to an Athiest. I would have to rely on reason in order to be convincing. I hope you understand where I’m coming from here. It is very difficult make any headway when we cannot even work with the same definition or terms. I would truly love to understand where you are coming from, but at this point I just don’t, not even close. It becomes aggrevating and then we both sart acting childish, throwing one liners at each other.
I just wish we could move past this and have an intellectually honest conversation. For the times I have acted less than charitably, please accept my apology.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Then lets start using mozzarella cheese on crackers and take shots of vodka.

“Beware of False Prophets”

lol…you owe me a keyboard…

 

[Anna_Scott]

John 6 (RSV-CE)
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

Zarinus,

You’ve explained how Mormons celebrate the “remembrance” of Christ’s Sacrifice. You’ve stated you interpret “remembrance” literally; yet, reject a literal translation regarding eating/consuming the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

John 5: 53"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"?

How do you interpret, and act upon Christ’s command to “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood,” in order to “have life in you”?

**John 6: 55 “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” **

What do you believe Christ meant when he said His Flesh is “food indeed” and His Blood is “drink indeed”?

**John Chapter 6 **clearly states that more is accomplished in the Lord’s Supper, than “remembrance.” Graces are imparted during the Eucharist to include abiding in Christ and He in us; being raised up at the last day; and having eternal life.

Matthew 26: 27And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

According to Matthew Chapter 26, Jesus instructed the disciples to drink of the “cup” which is the blood of the covenant poured out for the forgiveness of sins. This demonstrates the grace of forgiveness imparted through the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper.

1 Corinthians 10: 14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 **The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? **17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

1 Corinthians Chapter 10 speaks not of mere remembrance; but the participation in the Body and Blood of Christ. The passage also speaks of the people of Israel saying, “. . . . .are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?”

There’s a whole lot more going on in the Lord’s Supper than remembrance. To claim otherwise is to deny Holy Scripture.

Anna

 

[PaulDupre]

Then lets start using mozzarella cheese on crackers and take shots of vodka.

That’s one way to increase mass attendance!

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .The Mass, just as it is done today can be demonstrated through the early church Fathers as well. It has been done since the Church began. Each part of the liturgy is meaningful and follows the example of Jesus Himself. . . . .

. . . . .You are mixing an awful lot of stuff here which have no relation with each other. I would be spending hours dissecting every word to try and explain it, which I don’t think is worth doing.

**Zarius, **Steve explained the elements of The Mass; but you dismissed his post. You can’t have a serious discussion about the Catholic Eucharist, unless you actually do some work to understand Catholic beliefs and practices. It is “worth doing.”

On another thread, several of us compared liturgies to find surprising similarities. Liturgical worship is not confined to Catholicism, though its origins do go back to the early Church & the Catholic tradition.

If you are serious about “Comparing & contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist,” put some effort into it. At this point, it seems like Catholics are doing all the work on this Thread.

Liturgy of The Eucharist found at The Catholic Liturgical Library is a great place to start. It really doesn’t take much time to read the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Link: catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/11/Start/9

The following is an example of the liturgy in my Episcopal Parish; I’ll fast forward to the Eucharistic Prayer. All is rooted in Scripture:

THE GREAT THANKSGIVING, EUCHARISTIC PRAYER B

People And also with you.
Celebrant Lift up your hearts.
People We lift them to the Lord.
Celebrant Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Then, facing the Holy Table, the Celebrant proceeds

It is right, and a good and joyful thing, always and every‑
where to give thanks to you, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth.

A prayer with with the spiritual themes of the day is said and the Celebrant continues

Therefore we praise you, joining our voices with Angels and
Archangels and with all the company of heaven, who for ever
sing this hymn to proclaim the glory of your Name:

SANCTUS AND BENEDICTUS Celebrant and People sing
Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
The people stand or kneel.

Then the Celebrant continues

We give thanks to you, O God, for the goodness and love
which you have made known to us in creation; in the calling
of Israel to be your people; in your Word spoken through the
prophets; and above all in the Word made flesh, Jesus, your
Son. For in these last days you sent him to be incarnate from
the Virgin Mary, to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world.
In him, you have delivered us from evil, and made us worthy
to stand before you. In him, you have brought us out of error
into truth, out of sin into righteousness, out of death into life.

At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold it, or lay a hand
upon it; and at the words concerning the cup, to hold or place a hand upon the cup
and any other vessel containing wine to be consecrated.

On the night before he died for us, our Lord Jesus Christ took
bread; and when he had given thanks to you, he broke it, and
gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat: This is my Body,
which is given for you. Do this for the remembrance of me.”

After supper he took the cup of wine; and when he had given
thanks, he gave it to them, and said, “Drink this, all of you:
This is my Blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for you
and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Whenever you drink
it, do this for the remembrance of me.”

Therefore, according to his command, O Father,

Celebrant and People sing

We remember his death,
We proclaim his resurrection,
We await his coming in glory;

The Celebrant continues

And we offer our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to you,
O Lord of all; presenting to you, from your creation, this
bread and this wine.

We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon
these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of
Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your
Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him,
being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time,
put all things in subjection under your Christ, and bring us to
that heavenly country where, with patron saint and] all your
saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and
daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all
creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our
salvation.

By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy
Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and
for ever. AMEN.

And now, as our Savior
Christ has taught us,
we are bold to say,

THE GREAT AMEN is sung by Celebrant and People

People and the Celebrant pray THE LORD’S PRAYER

THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD

*The Celebrant breaks the consecrated Bread and a period of silence is kept. *

Fraction Anthem: PASCHA NOSTRUM is sung by Celebrant and People
[Alleluia.] Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;
Therefore let us keep the feast. [Alleluia.]

Facing the people, the Celebrant says the following Invitation

The Gifts of God for the People of God.
Take them in remembrance that Christ died for
you, and feed on him in your hearts by faith,
with thanksgiving.

. . . . . . . . . . . .(The 1979 U. S. Book of Common Prayer)

Anna

 

[benidict]

Then lets start using mozzarella cheese on crackers and take shots of vodka.

“Beware of False Prophets”

on the mozzarella cheese on crackers. nay on the vodka. its just…icky if i can have captain morgan instead?

 

[ChristMySavior]

on the mozzarella cheese on crackers. nay on the vodka. its just…icky if i can have captain morgan instead?

Well if you’re Mormon, you can have whatever you want so bring out the Captain

 

[SteveVH]

**Zarius, **Steve explained the elements of The Mass; but you dismissed his post. You can’t have a serious discussion about the Catholic Eucharist, unless you actually do some work to understand Catholic beliefs and practices. It is “worth doing.”

On another thread, several of us compared liturgies to find surprising similarities. Liturgical worship is not confined to Catholicism, though its origins do go back to the early Church & the Catholic tradition.

If you are serious about “Comparing & contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist,” put some effort into it. At this point, it seems like Catholics are doing all the work on this Thread.

Liturgy of The Eucharist found at The Catholic Liturgical Library is a great place to start. It really doesn’t take much time to read the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Link: catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/11/Start/9

The following is an example of the liturgy in my Episcopal Parish; I’ll fast forward to the Eucharistic Prayer. All is rooted in Scripture:

THE GREAT THANKSGIVING, EUCHARISTIC PRAYER B

People And also with you.
Celebrant Lift up your hearts.
People We lift them to the Lord.
Celebrant Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Then, facing the Holy Table, the Celebrant proceeds

It is right, and a good and joyful thing, always and every‑
where to give thanks to you, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth.

A prayer with with the spiritual themes of the day is said and the Celebrant continues

Therefore we praise you, joining our voices with Angels and
Archangels and with all the company of heaven, who for ever
sing this hymn to proclaim the glory of your Name:

SANCTUS AND BENEDICTUS Celebrant and People sing
Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
The people stand or kneel.

Then the Celebrant continues

We give thanks to you, O God, for the goodness and love
which you have made known to us in creation; in the calling
of Israel to be your people; in your Word spoken through the
prophets; and above all in the Word made flesh, Jesus, your
Son. For in these last days you sent him to be incarnate from
the Virgin Mary, to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world.
In him, you have delivered us from evil, and made us worthy
to stand before you. In him, you have brought us out of error
into truth, out of sin into righteousness, out of death into life.

At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold it, or lay a hand
upon it; and at the words concerning the cup, to hold or place a hand upon the cup
and any other vessel containing wine to be consecrated.

On the night before he died for us, our Lord Jesus Christ took
bread; and when he had given thanks to you, he broke it, and
gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat: This is my Body,
which is given for you. Do this for the remembrance of me.”

After supper he took the cup of wine; and when he had given
thanks, he gave it to them, and said, “Drink this, all of you:
This is my Blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for you
and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Whenever you drink
it, do this for the remembrance of me.”

Therefore, according to his command, O Father,

Celebrant and People sing

We remember his death,
We proclaim his resurrection,
We await his coming in glory;

The Celebrant continues

And we offer our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to you,
O Lord of all; presenting to you, from your creation, this
bread and this wine.

We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon
these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of
Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your
Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him,
being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time,
put all things in subjection under your Christ, and bring us to
that heavenly country where, with patron saint and] all your
saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and
daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all
creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our
salvation.

By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy
Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and
for ever. AMEN.

And now, as our Savior
Christ has taught us,
we are bold to say,

THE GREAT AMEN is sung by Celebrant and People

People and the Celebrant pray THE LORD’S PRAYER

THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD

*The Celebrant breaks the consecrated Bread and a period of silence is kept. *

Fraction Anthem: PASCHA NOSTRUM is sung by Celebrant and People
[Alleluia.] Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;
Therefore let us keep the feast. [Alleluia.]

Facing the people, the Celebrant says the following Invitation

The Gifts of God for the People of God.
Take them in remembrance that Christ died for
you, and feed on him in your hearts by faith,
with thanksgiving.

. . . . . . . . . . . .(The 1979 U. S. Book of Common Prayer)

Anna

Can there be anything more beautiful than that? I hope all viewing or participating on this thread will read these words carefully. What an astounding, wonderful God we have. How privileged we are to be asked to participate in something so holy. When Christ’s blood courses through our veins we become true brothers and sisters in a very literal sense. We share the same blood. Truly amazing.

 

[kikkichan]

Sir Thomas,

Interesting, thanks for the clarification. Also, I didn’t know of the “thus sayeth the Lord” requirement.

thanks,
-kc

PS didn’t you just have a feast day?

Don’t know for sure, but if you mean Dianaiad (and unless she’s converted since I last checked ) , I’d be amazed if she admitted that the LDS has no prophets,

 

[zerinus]

SteveVH;6791692:

You have a point. However that would require more a thesis than a thread. For the sake of focus and brevity it is probably best to stick with one contradition at a time, don’t you think?

Agreed; let’s see what contradictions you had in mind.

If you think I’m going to make a career out pointing out contradictions in the BoM, think again. Off the top of my head we could address eternal marriage, the Godhead, Adam and Eve, Hell, spirit children, the Great Apostacy…,

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, and have resorted to cheap shot tactics. When you have decided to engage in a serious discussion, let me know, and I will resume the debate. But I don’t have time for this kind of stuff I am afraid.

 

[SirThomasMore]

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, and have resorted to cheap shot tactics.

And you SHOULD be afraid. I am afraid for all of you who follow false prophets

 

[Anna_Scott]

If you think I’m going to make a career out pointing out contradictions in the BoM, think again. Off the top of my head we could address eternal marriage, the Godhead, Adam and Eve, Hell, spirit children, the Great Apostacy…, pretty much everything you believe and most of which has already been discussed on this forum ad infinitum. Of course you will respond that those portions of the Bible which do not align with your beliefs were tainted by the Catholic Church and clarified by the BoM. A very convenient position to take. You will respond with page upon page of quotes from the BoM in order to prove your case, which will mean nothing to non-Mormons as we believe it is nothing but the product of an over active imagination at best.

Unless we can get to the point of agreeing to use the one book with which we have common ground, the Bible, the arguments are nothing more than an exercise in futlity. I understand that you derive your beliefs from Mormon documents, but they are not convincing to the rest of us. I would not use the Bible to prove the existence of God to an Athiest. I would have to rely on reason in order to be convincing. I hope you understand where I’m coming from here. It is very difficult make any headway when we cannot even work with the same definition or terms. I would truly love to understand where you are coming from, but at this point I just don’t, not even close. It becomes aggrevating and then we both sart acting childish, throwing one liners at each other.
I just wish we could move past this and have an intellectually honest conversation. For the times I have acted less than charitably, please accept my apology.

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, and have resorted to cheap shot tactics. When you have decided to engage in a serious discussion, let me know, and I will resume the debate. But I don’t have time for this kind of stuff I am afraid.

Zerinus,

You’ve got to be kidding me. This is your response? I’ve yet to see you answer the serious points SteveVH has raised in this discussion. In my Posts #125 & 126, I’ve repeated some of Steve’s points, because I’d like an answer myself; and you keep avoiding the issues.

Well, He did a lot more than just pass around bread and wine. He said "Take this and eat, this is my body which will be given for you… Take this, all of you, and drink from it, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant… ". The Catholic priest, standing in the place of Christ, repeats the words of Jesus, in other words, the substance of the elements are changed by the words of God, not the words of the priest.

So I’m sorry, you do not “do it, just as it was then”. Not even close. The Mass, just as it is done today can be demonstrated through the early church Fathers as well. It has been done since the Church began. Each part of the liturgy is meaningful and follows the example of Jesus Himself. On the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) Jesus gave us exaclty what the Catholic Church uses today, the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist. He went through the scriptures, beginning with Moses and the prophets (reading of the Word) then explained the scriptures to them (homily or sermon). Then He took the bread which they had given (Offertory), broke it, blessed it (Consecration) and gave it to them (communion). It was then that their eyes were opened. They recognized Him in the breaking of the bread. Remember, they had asked him to stay with them, which he agreed to do. Yet upon giving them the bread, he vanished. So did he break His promise to stay, or did he remain “present”?

You are mixing an awful lot of stuff here which have no relation with each other. I would be spending hours dissecting every word to try and explain it, which I don’t think is worth doing.

Your answer sounded like, “Aw-shucks, that’s too hard. I might have to spend some time on this.” Forgive my tone here Z.; but you have taken avoidance to a whole new level.

That “awful lot of stuff” has everything to do with each other. Until, you spend some time “dissecting every word,” you will not understand The Mass, Catholic or otherwise.

The Lord’s Supper = The Mass = The Divine Liturgy = The Holy Eucharist = Holy Communion = The Great Offering.

Anna

 

[catholic-rcia]

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, and have resorted to cheap shot tactics. When you have decided to engage in a serious discussion, let me know, and I will resume the debate. But I don’t have time for this kind of stuff I am afraid.

Strange, the exact words I heard from a man named Paul Harris who was yelling at me, “you don’t think God wants you to have glory Rich?”

I kept saying from my heart, “all praise and Glory to Jesus”

This was after about 5 hours in his office with him trying to convert me to Mormonism" Really, the same words as they were sired into my head, and the way he said it, like flicking a bug off his arm. Then to my surprise as I was leaving, standing at his office door he said this “Rich you really think a lot of that Jesus fellow don’t you”

With goose bumps, shaking a bit, along with some fear I answered “yes I do Paul, He is my everything”

Paul continued to send me letters about how evil my Church is, along with letters to our Priest and Bishop of Salt Lake. For the last 11 years.

He died a few months back. He had armed guards at his funeral here in Logan Utah to keep away those he had shunned throughout the years such as a sister who became gay.

Through it all I was able to love Paul because of Christ and pray for his soul many times. I did visit him about 6 months ago. When he realized I was only there because I wanted to be with him, to see how he was doing, He kicked me out of his house. Told me I would not be with my family in heaven.

He knew I worked with the LDS at the RCIA, along with being on the Parish council. He hated me in the end I believe, a lot of people for that matter. All people who loved him I am sure. Pray for the soul of Paul Harris. I am bailing out here pretty quick as well.

If you read this entire post it is clear that the Catholic Church has the correct Holy Communion and the correct Priesthood regarding Eucharist. If you made this posting into a small booklet I would be happy to give it out to others.

When we “do this” as Jesus commanded we do it as it was written not only in word but also in Christ Jesus. Obviously Zerinus you must have to much invested into the Mormon church, along with what you believe is to much to loose.

Trying to take Catholics away from the truth is a level of which is very dangerous, especially dangerous when you can see and understand this truth. Again this is a level of great concern.

In Christ Jesus
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[SteveVH]

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, and have resorted to cheap shot tactics. When you have decided to engage in a serious discussion, let me know, and I will resume the debate. But I don’t have time for this kind of stuff I am afraid.

:banghead:

 

[PaulDupre]

Z’s tactic is one we see often from Mormons: “I can’t be bothered to answer your lowly questions” or “You’re not worthy of an answer”.

The gods in embryo are far too superior to trifle with us mere mortals, especially when they have painted themselves into a corner and their false prophets are exposed for all to see.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Z’s tactic is one we see often from Mormons: “I can’t be bothered to answer your lowly questions” or “You’re not worthy of an answer”.

The gods in embryo are far too superior to trifle with us mere mortals, especially when they have painted themselves into a corner and their false prophets are exposed for all to see.

Paul, let’s not forget that anyone that questions Mormonism is an “anti-Mormon” and any back and forth argument is labeled “contention” which is “from the devil”.

So far as I know, Mormons are told not do involve themselves in such discussions, which has the side effect of them not being exposed to any other view. A very handy policy for those who want to make sure their members do not stray.

 

[SteveVH]

That says it all. It is an admission of defeat. You have basically decided that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism…

You got it z, I’ll be heading over to the local ward tomorrow to sign up. Nice job.