Comparing the Apostolic Churches

[Alexius]

1. Purgatory

Obviously, this is a term specific to the Roman Catholic Church. Generally, Eastern Catholics do not use it, nor do other Easterners…

I believe that the requirement for Catholics is that they accept that:

A) There is a place/state of purification in the afterlife and

B) That our prayers can help those in that place/state

Many other specifics have been included, but are generally more to the Latin understanding, such as a purgatory of literal fire…In 1999, Pope John Paul II denounced the view of purgatory as a physical place and stated that it is a “condition of existence.”

There is no general concensus among Easterners in specifics. All accept points A and B, but specifics are different. For instance, in Coptic and many Orthodox minds, when one dies, there soul goes to a common holding area. Every soul is there and from there, a soul is later judged and sent to either heaven or hell. Some take this idea further and say that in this common holding area, a soul experiences the foretaste of its final destination. If it is destined for heaven, it will experience some of the joy of heaven (in this state–paradise). If it is destined for hell, it will experience the emptiness of hell (in this state–hades). Those in hades; however, may benefit from our prayers as final judgment has not yet taken place. At that judgment, they will be sent to heaven or hell. Furthermore, purification takes place, but is left open to interpretation where this occurs. Sometimes it is called the “Final Theosis,” but this is incorrect and has no merit as theosis is a never ending process. One view is that purification takes place during the ascent of the soul into heaven and are cleansed as they approach the throne of God. Some Russian Orthodox have a concept of “toll-houses” in which souls are tested, but this is not a commonly held view. I hope this helps…There are many books on the subject if you are interested…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[justinthemartyr]

what other church is apostolic? I only see one with a direct line of popes to the first, and that being cephas.

 

[Alexius]

what other church is apostolic? I only see one with a direct line of popes to the first, and that being cephas.

The other churches mentioned:

Eastern Orthodox,
Oriental non-Chalcedonian [Orthodox],
Assyrian Church of the East

All of these trace their bishops back to the Holy Apostles. Apostolic Succession is not based on Peter alone (only Rome), but all of those churches who were founded by the apostles are properly called “Apostolic.”

 

[justinthemartyr]

oh, i see, so the titale is somehow dependent on if there was a primacy amongst the apostles then? that seems to be the root of the argument.

Well then it is a no brainer.

 

[Hesychios]

oh, i see, so the titale is somehow dependent on if there was a primacy amongst the apostles then? that seems to be the root of the argument.

Well then it is a no brainer.

I don’t understand your statement.

All bishops are successors to all Apostles.

There is no way to deny the Coptic church of Egypt this claim, nor the Armenian church, nor the Saint Thomas Christians of India…

Nor the Greeks…nor the Latins. What all these churches have in common precedes any schism, it is very ancient belief. The Real Presence in the Eucharist is but one thing that all these churches inherited from the distant past. Likewise the other sacraments, the sacerdotal ministry, the Liturgy of the Hours…

But churches that come from the reform movement of western Christianity cannot be Apostolic, they have rejected important elements of the received Faith, the teaching of the Apostles.

Michael

 

[bengal_fan]

what other church is apostolic? I only see one with a direct line of popes to the first, and that being cephas.

antioch can trace their bishop all the way back to Peter as well. they were actually founded by Peter before the church in rome was.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

For these apostolic Churches:

A.The Roman Catholic Church
B.The Eastern Orthodox Churches
C.The Anglican Churches (including *In Continuum *Churches)
D.The Swedish Lutherans (Apostolic Succession, right?)
E.The Ethiopian Orthodox Church
F.The Mar Toma Churches
G.The Coptic Orthodox Church
H.The Charismatic Episcopal Church (which has valid Succession)

Metaron,

You information quest would, as I believe was pointed out by my brother, Hesychios, be better served (and, definitely, be more answerable) were you to try to break it up in some way that would result in a series of threads more narrowly focused.

As to the particular Churches which you cited:

• Anglican Churches: I would concur with whomever suggested that the involvement of Old Catholic hierarchs in Anglican ordinations has had the effect of assuring that apostolic succession and valid orders do exist in some instances among the Anglicans. (Note that it may not be limited to particular component ecclesia of the Anglican Communion - the episcopal lineage of individual hierarchs among otherwise unlikely Anglican bodies could muddy that water.)
• Swedish Lutherans: Some Lutheran Churches have had the same intermingling of Old Catholics, although certainly to a much less extent than the Anglicans - this includes at least one US-based ecclesia, The Evangelical Catholic Church. Absent episcopal ordinations which have involved hierarchs from outside the Lutheran ecclesia itself, there is no means to have had apostolic succession arise spontaneously in the Lutheran Communion.
• Ethiopian Orthodox Church: This is only 1 of several Oriental Orthodox Churches - for example, Copts, Armenians, etc, all of which unequivocally have succession and validity of orders.
• Mar Thoma Churches: This is not a simple category, including - a it does - at least two ecclesia which are influenced by Anglicanism, besides that the remainder fall into the Oriental Orthodox Communion referenced above. The latter certainly have succession and orders; as to the other two, they bring with them the same caveats as apply to the Anglicans.
• Coptic Orthodox Church: As already referenced, this is one of several Oriental Orthodox Churches, which are perhaps best considered as a group.
• Charismatic Episcopal Church: The CEC, albeit not a member of the Anglican Communion, is probably more appropriately classed within a broader category of so-called “independent Catholic/Orthodox Churches” - a grouping that would include most (if not all) of the “Old Catholic-type” Churches

Your list lacks reference to:

• Non-Chalcedonian Churches: The Assyrians, Ancient Church of the East, and their respective Indian daughter Churches, all of which have validity of orders and sacraments.
• Old Catholic Churches of the Ultrecht Communion: However afield they have taken themselves in recent times, the fact remains that they do have both succession and orders, although they now have instances in which such are missing.
• Polish National Catholic Church: Unique in being the sole Western Church of which Rome has taken formal notice in the Code of Canon Law, as to these precise matters of succession and validity
• “Independent Catholic/Orthodox” Churches: As referenced above; this body is diverse in its theology and praxis and has only limited communion within its own “ranks” - if independents can be said to have such a characteristic. They are, however, replete with instances of hierarchs who, at least arguably, have valid lineage and, therefore, potentially, valid sacraments
• Old Catholic-type Churches: A North American phenomenon, at least principally, they originated in the Utrecht body - or their ecclesial ancestors did, or they claim to have. Although all subsequently broke with Utrecht - if they held actual formal union - that is the entity they most resemble yet, in theology and praxis. Most, at least arguably, have validity of both lineage and sacraments

Many years,

Neil