Complexity of the Roman Catholic Church

[Kliska]

No, it has nothing to do with scrupulosity, though scrupulosity can become a problem for a minority of Catholics, and from your response, I can see that you don’t have an understanding of the Catholic Faith. However, since Lek is a former Catholic, I would like to know his answer to my questions, which I think is an important question for him specifically, IMO.

It does indeed have to do with scrupulosity, and studies have been done. It’s an interesting area to look at. My Master’s degree is in Counseling Psych and I’m married to a Clinical Psychologist, and I can tell you that what I stated above is true. If someone is so scared of committing a sin that it become a mini-Hell for them it is a very serious condition that Priests run into in the confessional. I have also studied the Catholic faith and have read (and heard) many Priest’s thoughts on scrupulosity. Sin is indeed serious, but the gospel was to bring peace between man and God, and is a joyful thing, which most Catholics would readily agree with. Statistically, as I said the more stringent a religion is about lists of do’s and don’t’s the more you see scrupulosity pop up. Religiosity is a trigger however, not an underlying cause.

 

[KathleenGee]

My former Sepulcian priest who educated seminarians told me years ago that scruples is the first step into insanity.

You must always trust in the Lord’s goodness and mercy.

Martin Luther suffered this and needed it written down he would be assured of his salvation. Look at the disunity that has resulted in not trusting in the Lord’s mercy.

We will never fully grasp how much the Lord loves us. Never…and for those in heaven…seeing how much the Lord loves all is an eternal journey of joy.

St. Francis of Assisi gave a good remedy and you see alot of this in his followers in Italy…they may suffer inside but they claim joy based on Christ’s cross.

Christ is nailed to the Cross and He could not get down for our sake. We place ourselves on His cross but we are free and we claim joy in Him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe to a different extreme, it also does strike me that many catholics in this forum seem to “major on the minors”, so to speak. I see it in questions such as: “I committed what I think is a mortal sin, but confessions aren’t until Saturday. Should I call a priest and go to confession immediately?” Or: “I forgot to fast before communion. Did I commit a mortal sin?” I perceive the laws(?) of the catholic church as leading to people becoming hung up on following the rules and not being aware of the love and understanding of God, who looks at the condition of one’s heart. Again, I respect your views , even though I disagree with them.

I saw the same when I first came to these forum, before I became Catholic. I thought, wow, these people are hung up on the weirdest things!

The perceived rule following is rooted in the love of God, and is not rule following, but a desire to be fully reconciled to God at all times. We reciprocate the love that God has for us, and we desire to do His will. There are practical matters to following the applicable will of God, but the whole reason for caring at all, is because God cares about us.

In regards to your OP, again, yes, I agree. Mind spinning, and I still find no interest in having every council memorized in order to instantly make comparisons in a conversation. I am one of those Catholics who go to Mass, pray, read my Bible, and participate in parish ministries. I like theological books at times, but have more interest in Bible commentaries. I find understanding the word of God to be my favorite study place to hang out. But we Catholics are not cut from the same cookie cutter. One of the beautiful things of Catholicism is you can be yourself. If you find the intricacies of councils to be endlessly fascinating, there isn’t anything wrong with that, go for it.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

I’m trying to tread lightly here because I have the utmost respect for the Roman Catholic church and the catholics I’ve met here in this forum. Please realize that I’m not trying to be offensive in any way. I just left this thread: “Primacy or Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome” in the Non-Catholic Religions" forum.

I read through pages and pages of doctrines, decrees, rules and such and by the time I was finished my head was spinning. The first thing I thought of was how glad I am that I’m not a catholic. All these pages and pages of complex documents–and this was just concerning the power and authority of the papacy. My thought is: Did God really mean it to be this way? How far we’ve come from the clear and simple statements made to christians in the new testament such as the following:

John 3:16-20 New International Version (NIV) “16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.”

to the countless pages of complex doctrines of the catholic church. When I put my image of the church in the earliest days beside my image of the catholic church today, I have trouble reconciling the two as being the same church. Again, no offense intended; just my honest thoughts. God bless.

To a certain extent- actually, the extent that I will describe it- it’s an issue of power, of control. It’s a question of, Who basically rules over Christianity, who’s in charge, who’s in control, and how does all of that work? As has been pointed out, this is a very big deal to certain people- specifically, the people who have some form of power, control, et al. Also, the people who make it their business to know and understand all the different ways in which power is or can or should be exercised, perhaps because it affects them in some way but also in spite of the fact that they have little to no control or say or effect on any outcome or situation.

Again, as it was pointed out already, most people don’t concern themselves with it. Do you watch Game of Thrones, by chance? It’s highly inappropriate and you certainly should not start watching on my account, but the power struggles are fascinating, there are so many different perspectives and so much creativity that goes into gaining and maintaining power…but outside the immediate power families, most people don’t care one way or another, unless they are fighters themselves and even then a fair number of them will sell their swords to whoever is the most powerful to begin with. There’s not many who are truly loyal and faithful, and it’s up to the viewer (or reader) to decide whether that’s due to pragmatism or apathy, to a sense of idealism or naivete. Sometimes it depends both on the person and the outcome of their efforts.

In a sense, all of this is like an election. Granted, the pope is not elected by the laity, but in a larger sense it’s an election where all of Christianity is concerned, and you bet there are alliances and strategic cooperation with other factions on top of that. If you do choose to delve very deep into it, however, I would make a recommendation- early in your process, ask yourself if you are doing this in order to find out what is God’s original vision for Christian unity through all of time and in all places, or if you are finding out what is going to work best at this particular time and in our particular situation, and maybe there’s something different that works best at a different time and place. Or perhaps it’s some balance of the two? That may be a useful starting point that allows you to have a bit of an overarching purpose to your studies, and perhaps your mindset will change a bit as you progress with the things you take in.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Martin Luther suffered this and needed it written down he would be assured of his salvation. Look at the disunity that has resulted in not trusting in the Lord’s mercy.

First, I will point out that Luther and all the other reformers were Catholics until they weren’t, and that officially happened a fairly long ways into the larger dispute. Second, I’ll point out that among all the apostolic expressions of ancient Christianity, Roman Catholicism is the only one that suffered from this type disunity, both in terms of entire nations breaking away so permanently and in terms of so many people operating completely apart from any form of apostolic authority. Along with the blame, there needs to be a sense of

This may seem a bit harsh and I’m sorry if it does, but to the historically minded (feel free to chime in here, any of you) it’s neither fair nor accurate (nor conducive to productive dialogue) to casually talk about the Reformation as if all the blame lies on one side or on just one particularly defective man, while the other side has all the answers. For anyone who has that habit, it’s a good idea to try and break it. That’s too inaccurate and reductive to go without any sort of comment in this kind of setting on a long term basis. Perhaps you could say something like “Not trusting in the Lord’s mercy has some bearing on Christian unity, which I believe Martin Luther exemplified.” And you do so without implying that the sole cause and reason of the Reformation was Martin Luther and his bad decision. You’re implying that it doesn’t help matters, without implying that it was the sole reason for that whole thing- which it clearly was not- even if you could convincingly demonstrate that Luther did not trust in the Lord’s mercy, and that is immediately questionable in and of itself.

It’s a suggestion. I’ll leave it at that, I just deleted a whole bunch of other stuff and I’m glad I held back a little.

 

[Elizium23]

I am very concerned abut committing sin. I think that Kliska’s comments are also very true. My concern is this. Take the individual that thinks he committed a mortal sin and is concerned about having to wait until Saturday to go to confession. What God wants to know is that he recognizes his sin and repents, not that he has to wait until Saturday to go to confession. This person’s concern isn’t whether he’s sorry for his sin, which I’m sure he is, but whether he’s filled the proper square. The person who forgot to fast before communion knows he simply forgot and should not be culpable, but is afraid that God is going to get him on a technicality. I see this as maybe more of a concern for following rules than for lovingly following Jesus.

Faithful Catholics know that God doesn’t work on technicalities. His Love and Mercy is greater than anything we can imagine. “God has bound salvation to His Sacraments, but God Himself is not bound by His Sacraments.” People who are concerned about filling the proper squares have scrupulosity. The Catholic way of life is to pray constantly, to grow every day in love for the Lord and desire to unite with Him. The point of Sacraments is to make God present to us in a very real way. Jesus instituted them as channels of His grace. Yet they are not the only channel. Sacramentals and private devotions and daily prayers are ways to grow in personal holiness and to glorify God. The beauty of the Church is not her complexity but her catholicity. The Church is UNIVERSAL! The Church has room for everyone, and she has a devotion to fit every need. Some pray the Rosary, some pray the Liturgy of the Hours, some wear the Brown Scapular. Some venerate icons, some have beautiful statues, some collect fine paintings. The bottom line is that we all practice in different ways, the same faith, the faith of the Apostles, the True Faith which is revealed by God, whole and entire in the Catholic Church.

Catholics may just observe the minimum in keeping the Precepts of the Church. Go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days, confess our sins and receive Holy Communion once a year, observe the marriage laws, observe the laws of fasting and abstinence, to support the Church through tithes and offerings, to evangelize souls by preaching the Gospel. These are the minimum things we do to be Catholics in good standing. I don’t think this is anything too onerous. Anyone can follow these rules and still hold a full-time job, still raise a family, still have time for a little recreation and “me time”. But the Church offers more. We can go deeper. Some are called to a religious vocation, some are called to the married life. To me, raising a family seems complex. I have never done it before. I’m on the outside looking in. But if I talk to a mother of five, I am sure I can find simplicity and elegance in her philosophy of parenting. If I become a father, I will have to seek simplicity and elegance for my own sanity. Sure, there will be complex forms to fill out and doctors and school rules, but we can’t let that discourage us from the joy of having a family. In the same way we can’t let some illusion of complexity discourage us from the joys of Eternal Life. And that is the one promise of the Church. Eternal Life is a one-of-a-kind gift. It can’t be found anywhere else. This life on Earth is short and can be hard. The promise of Jesus is that we will be with Him forever, and to me that is worth the effort.

 

[Denise1957]

I am very concerned abut committing sin. I think that Kliska’s comments are also very true. My concern is this. Take the individual that thinks he committed a mortal sin and is concerned about having to wait until Saturday to go to confession. What God wants to know is that he recognizes his sin and repents, not that he has to wait until Saturday to go to confession. This person’s concern isn’t whether he’s sorry for his sin, which I’m sure he is, but whether he’s filled the proper square. The person who forgot to fast before communion knows he simply forgot and should not be culpable, but is afraid that God is going to get him on a technicality. I see this as maybe more of a concern for following rules than for lovingly following Jesus.

So you believe that the one person mentioned was more concerned about filling in the proper square or, regarding the second person, that he or she is worried that God will get them on a technicality. I think that it’s disrespectful to assume these things without firstly asking the persons involved. Did you ask the persons?

 

[dronald]

For me, the issue isn’t using many words to define what one believes. ‘Systematic Theology’ is a large book.

The issue is that a Catholic and an Orthodox member can debate with pages upon pages of interpreting history and Scripture. Yet to me the Bible seems so clear.

When I read Corinthians, I don’t believe Paul would revere this type of attitude, arguing over history, genealogies, etc. He preached Jesus and the cross.

I guess I just look at it differently when I see these weird disputes over this Pope or that council.

 

[Lek]

So you believe that the one person mentioned was more concerned about filling in the proper square or, regarding the second person, that he or she is worried that God will get them on a technicality. I think that it’s disrespectful to assume these things without firstly asking the persons involved. Did you ask the persons?

The persons I mentioned in my OP were just hypothetical, and were based on types of questions I have encountered numerous times in this forum. I wasn’t disrespecting any individuals. I believe the persons who ask this type of questions are sincere, God-loving people who truly want to do God’s will. I just believe their focus is in the wrong place, and I attribute much of this to the structure of the catholic church. They seem to view God as a taskmaster rather than a loving father. I realize that I’ve committed a sin and I’m sorry and have asked God for forgiveness. If I view God as a loving father, I would not be concerned with waiting until the next scheduled confessions to confess to a priest, because I would realize that, although I still need to go to confession, the most important thing is that I’ve repented. If I’m hung up with following the rules, I might be worried that God isn’t going to allow me to wait that long.

 

[Elizium23]

Loving fathers still have rules and curfews and boundaries. While we can sometimes say that we entrust ourselves to God’s infinite mercy and love, we can also say that the ordinary means of conferring grace belongs to the Sacraments alone. Therefore it is important to get to Confession on time. I can understand your skepticism.

I recently had a discussion with another Catholic on this forum about the timeliness of Confession. His view of mortal sin was like a traumatic medical emergency, one that required immediate attention, putting all else aside. While I have always viewed mortal sin as a terminal disease. Both of these views understand that sin results in death of the soul. But in my view, if I committed a mortal sin on Wednesday, then I could go to Confession on Saturday because that is my habit. My interlocutor asserted that I would have to go to Confession immediately. I wondered aloud how immediately: If I commit a mortal sin at 1am, must I call the parish’s emergency answering service? Surely that is reductio ad absurdum, but it is also a very real scenario that happens all the time. In my case, my parish’s regular Confession times are on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, and Saturday morning and afternoon. Priests here will gladly make appointments for Confession. So it is possible that I could come in on Thursday morning and have a private Confession, or come on Thursday evening and avail myself of the regular times. But I choose to wait until Saturday instead. Is that remiss? That is really between me and God, and in these cases, God can be mediated by our confessor.

Our confessor is a valuable leader, especially to those faithful who tend toward scrupulosity, or in the opposite direction. A confessor is poised to be the arbiter of matters of conscience, especially in times of doubt or ignorance. The right answer to matters of conscience, posed on these forums, is always “ask your confessor”. Through the ministry of priests the Church is authorized to bind and loose sins. A regular confessor acts in persona Christi to absolve our sins and to counsel us in matters of conscience.

We should also remember the role of spiritual director. Having a spiritual director is important for anyone who seeks to deepen his faith life, and especially for someone who is discerning a vocation of any kind. A spiritual director counsels you in confidence about your faith practice and your chosen path. A spiritual director is your co-pilot in the quest for personal holiness. It is not unusual that your confessor and spiritual director are the same person.

Yes, God is a loving father, but he is also Justice. God’s mercy is always tempered with justice, and it is through the Church that He has given authority over the faithful.

 

[Denise1957]

The persons I mentioned in my OP were just hypothetical, and were based on types of questions I have encountered numerous times in this forum. I wasn’t disrespecting any individuals. I believe the persons who ask this type of questions are sincere, God-loving people who truly want to do God’s will. I just believe their focus is in the wrong place, and I attribute much of this to the structure of the catholic church. They seem to view God as a taskmaster rather than a loving father. I realize that I’ve committed a sin and I’m sorry and have asked God for forgiveness. If I view God as a loving father, I would not be concerned with waiting until the next scheduled confessions to confess to a priest, because I would realize that, although I still need to go to confession, the most important thing is that I’ve repented. If I’m hung up with following the rules, I might be worried that God isn’t going to allow me to wait that long.

You are not hung up on rules, but you are hung up on Catholics who are not comfortable with being in a state of mortal sin, and want to go to confession as soon as possible. I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to go straightaway to confession, if one has committed a mortal sin. It’s fine if you feel that you yourself just want to ask for forgiveness and be done with it. But we Catholics are different, and we aren’t going to change. We care about rules because we don’t want to offend God. I don’t see God as a taskmaster at all - and it’s seems odd to me that you would think this. If we love God with all of our heart, all of our mind (as Jesus said we should do), then we care about not offending Him. The saints didn’t become saints because they were devoted to a taskmaster, but they were devoted to Him who is our Creator and our Redeemer, out of their great love and devotion to God. The saints were so in love with God that they didn’t want to do the least thing to offend Him. We have their example to use as to how to conduct our life. This life is short compared to eternity. We look to Heaven, and hope to be with Him who loves us and died for us.

 

[pablope]

The persons

I just believe their focus is in the wrong place, and I attribute much of this to the structure of the catholic church. They seem to view God as a taskmaster rather than a loving father. I realize that I’ve committed a sin and I’m sorry and have asked God for forgiveness. If I view God as a loving father, I would not be concerned with waiting until the next scheduled confessions to confess to a priest, because I would realize that, although I still need to go to confession, the most important thing is that I’ve repented. If I’m hung up with following the rules, I might be worried that God isn’t going to allow me to wait that long.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html

Some saints, actually, in their lives, focused on sin and repenting and became more united with God:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html

A unique experience on 20 March 1473 sparked her conversion. She had gone to the Church of San Benedetto in the monastery of Nostra Signora delle Grazie [Our Lady of Grace], to make her confession and, kneeling before the priest, “received”, as she herself wrote, “a wound in my heart from God’s immense love”. It came with such a clear vision of her own wretchedness and shortcomings and at the same time of God’s goodness, that she almost fainted.

Her heart was moved by this knowledge of herself — knowledge of the empty life she was leading and of the goodness of God. This experience prompted the decision that gave direction to her whole life. She expressed it in the words: “no longer the world, no longer sin” (cf. Vita Mirabile, 3rv). Catherine did not stay to make her Confession.

On arriving home she entered the remotest room and spent a long time weeping. At that moment she received an inner instruction on prayer and became aware of God’s immense love for her, a sinner. It was a spiritual experience she had no words to describe ( cf. Vita Mirabile, 4r).

It was on this occasion that the suffering Jesus appeared to her, bent beneath the Cross, as he is often portrayed in the Saint’s iconography. A few days later she returned to the priest to make a good confession at last. It was here that began the “life of purification” which for many years caused her to feel constant sorrow for the sins she had committed and which spurred her to impose forms of penance and sacrifice upon herself, in order to show her love to God.

On this journey Catherine became ever closer to the Lord until she attained what is called “unitive life”, namely, a relationship of profound union with God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am very concerned abut committing sin. I think that Kliska’s comments are also very true. My concern is this. Take the individual that thinks he committed a mortal sin and is concerned about having to wait until Saturday to go to confession. What God wants to know is that he recognizes his sin and repents, not that he has to wait until Saturday to go to confession. This person’s concern isn’t whether he’s sorry for his sin, which I’m sure he is, but whether he’s filled the proper square. The person who forgot to fast before communion knows he simply forgot and should not be culpable, but is afraid that God is going to get him on a technicality. I see this as maybe more of a concern for following rules than for lovingly following Jesus.

I’m going to state my opinion here. I do not say that this is CATHOLIC doctrine (though it might be).

I believe that a person is forgiven by God the moment that the individual realizes that he or she has committed a grave sin, feels sorrow for having offended God, and resolves to go to confession.

If he or she gets hit by a bus on the way, God will still forgive that person. Call it “confession of desire” or “desire of confession” or something.

However, it is still normatively necessary for that person to confess to a priest. Thus, if he or she simply decides to go to a movie and then forgets all about it, one would have to conclude that the desire to repent and seek absolution was insincere.

 

[Absolvo]

I will agree that when we spend time on forums such as this, we get an image of the participants as being totally what we see here; kind of one-dimensional. I myself like to dig into scripture and study the finer points, but I’ve always been aware of the simplicity of the message of salvation. I have an image in my mind of catholics being more concerned with defining doctrine and following rules than with simply following Christ and looking to do his work. I can understand where you’re coming from with your interest and enjoyment of delving into those types of doctrine, but still devoting you life to following the simple doctrines pertaining to salvation. I tend to think that because I don’t accept these doctrines, such as the authority of the papacy etc, that you’re wondering off on a tangent and allowing that to take the place of your walk with Christ. In other words, I see your focus as being on the wrong things.

Maybe to a different extreme, it also does strike me that many catholics in this forum seem to “major on the minors”, so to speak. I see it in questions such as: “I committed what I think is a mortal sin, but confessions aren’t until Saturday. Should I call a priest and go to confession immediately?” Or: “I forgot to fast before communion. Did I commit a mortal sin?” I perceive the laws(?) of the catholic church as leading to people becoming hung up on following the rules and not being aware of the love and understanding of God, who looks at the condition of one’s heart. Again, I respect your views , even though I disagree with them.

It’s the very same thing as in Jesus’ time. Or to backtrack a bit to explain what I mean: God gave Moses the 10 commandments. Were the 10 commandments in their terse form deemed sufficient by the Jews? No, because, for example, what does “Keep the Lord’s Day Holy” mean, exactly? And so you had the pharisees (to Jesus’ displeasure) concoct law after law that was a supplement to that commandment and others

And here we are 2000 years later, and a synod that has Catholics deeply divided on “the direction of the Church’s teachings.” That is, even with all the past complexity and commentary, we still can’t agree on what God wants of us. In my view it will always be this way until the End. Others will disagree and see an obvious coherence in all the Church teachings from Genesis to today. All I can suggest is, to thine own self be true.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’m trying to tread lightly here because I have the utmost respect for the Roman Catholic church and the catholics I’ve met here in this forum. Please realize that I’m not trying to be offensive in any way. I just left this thread: “Primacy or Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome” in the Non-Catholic Religions" forum.

I read through pages and pages of doctrines, decrees, rules and such and by the time I was finished my head was spinning. The first thing I thought of was how glad I am that I’m not a catholic. All these pages and pages of complex documents–and this was just concerning the power and authority of the papacy. My thought is: Did God really mean it to be this way? How far we’ve come from the clear and simple statements made to christians in the new testament such as the following:

John 3:16-20 New International Version (NIV) “16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.”

to the countless pages of complex doctrines of the catholic church. When I put my image of the church in the earliest days beside my image of the catholic church today, I have trouble reconciling the two as being the same church. Again, no offense intended; just my honest thoughts. God bless.

Ever go into a Protestant bookshop? If Christianity is so simple, then why is it necessary for so many books to be written about it, with more coming out with each publisher’s new editions? Do we really need all those texts by JI Packer, Joel Osteen, Adrian Plass, Phillip Yancey, Rick Warren, Beth Moore, Max Lucado, Joyce Meyer? And very often saying the same thing in different words?

If it’s so simple why are there so many versions of the Bible - Good News, RSV, NRSV, NIV, King James, Douay Rheims (this was to the Catholics as the Kings James was to Protestants), Amplified, New English, New American Bible, Living Bible etc. etc.?

Heard of the Westminster Confession of Faith (Reformed)? Church Order (Reformed)?The Pedalion (Orthodox)? Book of Concord (Lutheran)?

I assume you’ve heard of Karl Barth (1886-1968) who was a Swiss Reformed Theologian, although like me you’ve probably never read of any of his books.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth

He wrote reams and reams of stuff. There’s a list of stuff if you look at the above link.

If Christianity is so simple, was it really necessary for one of the leading lights of the Reformed Tradition to write so many tomes?

Yet even he said, when asked what he thought was most profound thing about Christianity, after he had reflected for short while, “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so”.

You’re talking about 2000 years of history when it comes to the Catholic Church, and this means there’ll be a huge historical compilation of material.

Er … apart from bureaucracies perpetuating themselves for 2000 years, but I’ll probably get into trouble if I start on that line.

 

[adf417]

I’m going to state my opinion here. I do not say that this is CATHOLIC doctrine (though it might be).

I believe that a person is forgiven by God the moment that the individual realizes that he or she has committed a grave sin, feels sorrow for having offended God, and resolves to go to confession.

If he or she gets hit by a bus on the way, God will still forgive that person. Call it “confession of desire” or “desire of confession” or something.

However, it is still normatively necessary for that person to confess to a priest. Thus, if he or she simply decides to go to a movie and then forgets all about it, one would have to conclude that the desire to repent and seek absolution was insincere.

 

[sennincatholic]

The persons I mentioned in my OP were just hypothetical, and were based on types of questions I have encountered numerous times in this forum. I wasn’t disrespecting any individuals. I believe the persons who ask this type of questions are sincere, God-loving people who truly want to do God’s will. I just believe their focus is in the wrong place, and I attribute much of this to the structure of the catholic church. They seem to view God as a taskmaster rather than a loving father. I realize that I’ve committed a sin and I’m sorry and have asked God for forgiveness. If I view God as a loving father, I would not be concerned with waiting until the next scheduled confessions to confess to a priest, because I would realize that, although I still need to go to confession, the most important thing is that I’ve repented. If I’m hung up with following the rules, I might be worried that God isn’t going to allow me to wait that long.

What makes you think we Catholics see God as a Taskmaster?Coming to such a conclusion means not only you mis understand the catholic faith,but you have not gotten to know personally practicing Catholics.Its a big mistake to imagine what we think about based on what we write from our computers on these forums,than actually seeing the real thing.

 

[Nixbits]

If I may momentarily return to the original point, I agree with Lek. Having been raised as a Catholic but only recently joined these forums, I find Catholic doctrine far more complex than I expected. On many topics - the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the nature of heaven, what happens to our bodies and souls when we die - I find the forum discussions and the official doctrine complex and often confusing. For example, I thought that I understood the Catholic view on Transubstantiation until I recently read the official ‘explanation’. Now I’m more baffled than ever.

 

[commenter]

If I may momentarily return to the original point, I agree with Lek. Having been raised as a Catholic but only recently joined these forums, I find Catholic doctrine far more complex than I expected. On many topics - the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the nature of heaven, what happens to our bodies and souls when we die - I find the forum discussions and the official doctrine complex and often confusing. For example, I thought that I understood the Catholic view on Transubstantiation until I recently read the official ‘explanation’. Now I’m more baffled than ever.

CAF is ok in that it allows people to express their feelings and ideas about religion, especially whatever happens to be prominent now, in the Church and in the world. But the Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses the Faith, including many things that don’t make it into Forum discussions, so that is far more worthy of your time. Catholic doctrine is “simple” in that everything relates to everything else. Devotion informs dogma, and also the reverse. The same Natural Law that supports teaching about birth control also is a crucial part of the Declaration of Independence.

The centuries teach each other, too. St. Augustine influenced St. Thomas Aquinas, and Pope Emeritus Benedict. Catholic devotion is deeply influenced by, and also directly influences Catholic Art and Music. Faith combines with Reason in one sense, and combines with Good Works in another sense. Sacraments are not isolated “Social”, and they aren’t isolated “Supernatural”, they bring those together, and also inform everything else I mentioned.

Catholicism is simple, in that what you learn (by head, or heart) about one thing also teaches you about many other things. Protestantism is complicated.

Consider the belly button on Adam, on the famous painting. Yeah, it’s kind of interesting to talk about, and has caused a fair amount of controversy. But you have to draw back, look at the breathtaking design, the overall majesty of the painting to see that not one stroke is wasted, it all fits together. Sometimes CAF is like the belly button controversy, but sometimes CAF helps us look at the big picture - which is Catholicism.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Hi Lek. I’ve had the same thoughts myself. You only have to remember that in the days of the first Christians, the church was tiny. They met in homes. Everyone knew each other. Everything was simple. Congregants could, and would, police each other.

Fast forward 2000 years. Christianity has become global. Our Church alone comprises 1/5 of humanity, not including hundreds of millions of Orthodox and Protestants. Rules, laws, dogmas, ordinances etc are a necessary outcome of the expansion of Christianity. In fact, orthodox Christianity would cease to exist without all these complex laws and rules. They are intended to guide the faithful against falling into heresy.

Look at the early history of the United States. There were a handful of people at Jamestown. No laws like today, just a few people working together in a community. Simple. Just like early Christianity. But look what happened to Jamestown. They were weak and defenseless against Indian attack, and they got wiped out. What they needed was a defense system with fortresses, an army, a supply line and military discipline and an adequate number of fighting men. If you are going to have all that, it would have to be accompanied by a system of laws, rules, and culture. They would also have to have a leader and assistants to the leader.

See where I’m going? See how different Jamestown is from the modern United States? Can you imagine going back to the simplicity of Jamestown now with 350 million people? It would never work, it would be anarchy. Our Church is the same thing. All these laws, doctrines and dogmas, rules, cultural practices, etc are an inevitable result of the passage of time, defending our beliefs from heretics, and the gathering of 1.2 billion people into a single institution. I realize it just looks unnecessarily complex, but it has to be that way or it would not work in today’s world.

I’m not going to compare Jamestown to what Christ intended for His Church. But what I don’t see is what difference it makes if it’s now or 2000 yrs ago.

“For my yoke is easy and my burden light” seems to me should be the same and good enough for what Christ intended now just as it was then. Whether for a relatively few believers back then or billions today Yet the CC has come up with these volumes and volumes to carry.

So I can understand why the OP and others wonder. I too wonder and I have a Catholic background.