Compromising with wife

[sspalding8140]

But it’s not a subjective thing. The anti-vaccination group has zero evidence to back up their case. The pro-vaccination group has evidence that they’re wrong. Simple as that, one side is wrong and one side is right. It’s not a bandwagon, it’s scientific fact.

Saying stuff like opinions is bunk. It’s not an opinion. It’s scientific fact. They’re just wrong and that’s all there is to it. This is as silly as saying we shouldn’t say the sky is blue because some people say it’s red. I can go outside and see it’s blue. No ambiguity, it’s blue. No need to concede to people who say it’s red, because it’s not. We don’t need balanced arguments to support each side. It’s blue.

Now, if it was something like what color the baby room should be then fine. I’d have an opinion and she would have hers and it’d be open for discussion. Or what kind of diaper. But this isn’t like that. It’s scientific fact that vaccinations do not cause autism.

The whole idea that nobody is wrong and everything is opinions is just stupid.

Interesting. Not one fact from you, not one. Merely outbursts. The sky? The color wheel? “Well YOU’RE stupid too!” - for cryin’ out loud, cut it out; you are embarrassing yourself. This is not a boxing ring, it is a forum with educated, kindly folks. Kindly conduct yourself as an adult. My OPINION is that your wife must be a Saint!

My brother, for example, has a color blindness, nothing stupid about it or him; matter of fact, he is highly credentialed technical scientist, but can’t see the color blue.

You have had may considerate people send you links with evidence - FACTS - to help you. There are many facts questioning vaccines, many supporting them, depends when you stop looking how many you find either way. If you stop shooting and start reading you will see evidence supporting both views. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND/SEE YOUR WIFE’S SIDE to begin the journey of reconciling whatever you both decide. That is called ADVICE - given with love, since you asked for help. I am glad you asked - you need it. God Bless you both, God see you through.

 

[Xantippe]

You also might look into why the federal government denies any link between vaccines and autism while routinely paying out money for proven vaccine injury claims through their no-fault Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

**Maybe because dangerous reactions to vaccines are real (although rare), but the autism link isn’t?

The risk of injury or death from vaccines is far lower than the risk from the diseases being vaccinated from–that’s why we are asked to do the vaccinations.**

And why did an Italian court rule that the MMR vaccine is linked to autism and related disorders? They must have had some reason beyond stupid conspiracy theories.

**Italian courts are very prosecution-happy. There was a recent case where they convicted some earthquake scientists for not predicting an earthquake.

“Six scientists and a government official were sentenced to six years in prison for manslaughter by an Italian court on Monday for failing to give adequate warning of an earthquake that killed more than 300 people in L’Aquila in 2009.”

reuters.com/article/2012/10/22/us-italy-earthquake-court-idUSBRE89L13V20121022**

And if you’re worried about your child dying from whooping cough, I’d be more concerned once your child is vaccinated. In California and Texas, more than 80% of children who have had whooping cough in recent outbreaks were vaccinated children.

Which is why parents of vaccinated children are ticked off when other parents choose to make their families a reservoir for dangerous preventable diseases. Immunization won’t provide adequate protection if there are large numbers of unvaccinated children in the population.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I do vaccinate my kids on time and will continue to do so but I completely understand why other parents don’t and it does not offend me or bother me one bit. Their kids are welcome to be around my kids. After all, if the vaccines really do work then the unvaccinated kids shouldn’t pose any risk to mine anyway. Think about it, the vaccine is supposed to create immunity to the germs the unvaccinated are at risk of catching, and the immunity my kids have would prevent them from spreading it to mine right? Or is the immunity just hypothetical and my kids are going through these shots for no reason whatsoever, and it’s just a scam for drs and drug companies to make money off of us?

The protection is not 100% for vaccinated individuals, but there’s more and more protection the higher the percentage of vaccinated individuals there are in a population. The willfully unvaccinated provide a reservoir for the bugs to live in, from which they can access 1) people who medically can’t be vaccinated and 2) people whose immunization has weakened or failed. That’s why we’ve been having such an explosion of preventable illnesses of late.

We go to military clinic and at least in the Army these clinics actually give more shots than civilian clinics. Mine follow the Army schedule and I’m ok with that. But I watch them like hawks and two of mine have medical exemptions to the MMR due to violent reactions they had. One was sick enough the dr thought he may not make it (he contracted measles which isn’t supposed to happen and ended up with encephalitis). He went from an advanced baby–talking at 11 months, walking at 7 months, dressing himself at 14 months, etc.–to comatose at 15 months old. He didn’t walk again until he was 22 months old and didn’t speak until 4 years old and only after tons of physical, occupational and speech therapy. He is slightly developmentally delayed and has multiple learning disabilities. He will never receive his follow up MMR because of dr order. The other MMR reaction was thankfully much less severe but still was given a medical exemption for that child. My youngest reacted to her Dtap. She was 4 months old and went into seizures later the same day she had her shot. We rushed her to the military clinic and she was transported to the regional university children’s hospital. They kept her for two nights and she had quite a few more seizures. She has done fine but it was very scary. She was not given a medical exemption, but the vaccine schedule was slowed down and the military clinic will only give her one shot at a time. So yeah, I do vaccinate all my kids but I understand why others don’t. And I find it so frustrating that people claim that vaccines are completely safe even when the government pays out compensation to many families each year (no, I never filed a claim but have considered it) and drs give out sheets stating all the reactions that are known to occur.

Poor little guys!

It sounds like a lot of your family falls into the can’t vaccinate group. Hence, the rest of the population can protect your family by vaccinating when they can so that they don’t endanger your children.

Nobody should say that vaccines are “completely safe.” At a population level, they are safer than not vaccinating, but it wouldn’t necessarily be safer for particular individuals. However, people forget how dire the results of the actual diseases are:

patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/04/08/polio-and-mumps-are-manageable-diseases/

 

[Xantippe]

My older kids got rotavirus when they were 3.5 and about 10 or 11 months. They wouldn’t eat or drink. The older child (who had brought it home from preschool) had to be rehydrated in the ER. The baby was so dehydrated that he had to spend a night in the hospital being rehydrated.

The very same year my kids got rotavirus, a new vaccine came out for it. Baby sister is, I am very happy to say, vaccinated against rotavirus.

Worldwide, “Each year, rotavirus causes approximately 111 million episodes of gastroenteritis requiring only home care, 25 million clinic visits, 2 million hospitalizations, and 352,000–592,000 deaths (median, 440,000 deaths) in children <5 years of age. By age 5, nearly every child will have an episode of rotavirus gastroenteritis, 1 in 5 will visit a clinic, 1 in 60 will be hospitalized, and approximately 1 in 293 will die. Children in the poorest countries account for 82% of rotavirus deaths. The tremendous incidence of rotavirus disease underscores the urgent need for interventions, such as vaccines, to prevent childhood deaths in developing nations.”

wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/9/5/02-0562_article

 

[JSSD]

To those who didn’t want their kids near mine because I chose not to vaccinate, can you imagine how much less I wanted your kids, with live polio vaccine in them, near my children?

Good Lord!

Has the incidence & prevalence of polio increased or decreased in the past ~50-60 years?
How about in the past 3-5?

Non-vaccinators want herd immunity, but no risk themselves. Interesting juxtaposition.

 

[JSSD]

There are those who do not vaccinate and they have valid reasons for doing so. Others do. We do. But honestly, I could go either way with it. **Your child won’t die without them realistically speaking. **

Statistically speaking, but I don’t feel comfortable saying that as an absolute, especially in regards to pertussis as the most recent vaccine-preventable outbreak example, or influenza as the old standby. $0.02

 

[Kay_Cee]

After my older daughter received a whooping cough vaccination, she turned into a demon child for several hours. Normally a sweet, quiet little girl, she was screaming, throwing herself on the floor, and kicking. It was so bad the neighbors asked what on earth was going on.

I told her doctor about it, and he said she should not have the next shot in the series because it could cause permanant brain damage. Not only that, but because her younger sister is closely related, she should not have the whooping cough vaccination at all.

Neither of my kids, therefore, are vaccinated against whooping cough.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Pedro,

I’m assuming your language here is kind of venting the stuff you cant’ and don’t actually say to your wife, like stupid etc.

That being said- this is a risk decision and if you’ve read through the comments you’ll realize there is more than just autism to consider. You need to acknowledge that unlike the autism link which has not been proven, there are real risks to consider. In fact, you should get a sheet or piece of paper with possible side-effects that you’ll have to sign when getting vaccinations.

Like any risk decision, you do need to weigh the benefits against the possible negative consequences and their likelihood. Yes, some folks do have severe reactions to vaccinations. Do the research for each type of vaccinations on the acknowledged risks and possible side-effects. Say you get your wife to agree based on discounting the autism, yet your child experiences one of these side-effects? You both need to be on board. Also, which ones require boosters? Some don’t provide lifetime immunity- they need to be updated.

There’s also more at risk than just your child getting sick in the next few years. As someone pointed out, getting chicken pox at 40 is far different than getting it at 8. It is much more severe. The same can be said of most childhood diseases- they will be much harder on someone in their 40s, 50s, 70s etc. This isn’t just about avoiding illness now, it’s about their lifetimes as well. Which goes back to boosters-- folks are bad about getting them. So, there is a risk of becoming vulnerable to a childhood disease at an older age.

My kids were vaccinated against all the standard childhood disease with the exception of chicken pox. The vaccine was new at the time we were moving back to California from Virginia and CA schools were just starting to require it. Our Dr. in VA had participated in the studies and advised against getting the chicken pox vaccine. Her opinion was the studies hadn’t looked enough at long-term immunity and whether boosters would be required and how often. Which again, people are bad at doing. She felt that this vaccine is going to result in a lot of adult chicken pox cases due to a failure to get boosters. Her advice, get them exposed/hope they got chicken pox and delay getting vaccinated until actually moved back to CA. As it happened my kids came down with it when traveling to CA on vacation. A friend had her kids play with mine because hers had been vaccinated. One came down with a mild case of the c’pox despite being vaccinated. Would it have been worse if they hadn’t been vaccinated? No idea.

We once refused to give my son a specific medicine because the Dr. could/would not explain how the risk (possible permanent paralysis of random muscles) was warranted by the condition. Got a second opinion and that Dr. was against using the medicine given the condition.

So, here’s what I would do:

• Gather the info debunking the study re autism
• Gather info on the known possible side-effects and rates
• Research consequences of the kids getting these diseases later in life
• Any other activities which will require kids by immunized to participate (Clubs, hobbies?)
• Discuss with your wife what you see as the benefits/costs and likelihood of negative events.
• Discuss mitigations- as others have said, drag out the immunizations. Only allow one at a time. Tolerate the risk for some until they’re older? I.E. delay chicken pox vaccine until ??? yrs old.

 

[agnes_therese]

After my older daughter received a whooping cough vaccination, she turned into a demon child for several hours. Normally a sweet, quiet little girl, she was screaming, throwing herself on the floor, and kicking. It was so bad the neighbors asked what on earth was going on.

I told her doctor about it, and he said she should not have the next shot in the series because it could cause permanant brain damage. Not only that, but because her younger sister is closely related, she should not have the whooping cough vaccination at all.

Neither of my kids, therefore, are vaccinated against whooping cough.

Ok, but that’s for a valid medical reason. Not because you’ve bought into some conspiracy theory.

 

[thewanderer]

Ok, but that’s for a valid medical reason. Not because you’ve bought into some conspiracy theory.

Which just goes to show that there are valid concerns about vaccines. They can have extremely serious side-effects. So, what needs to happen is a weighing of the pros-cons to figure it all out, and depending on how much weight different people give different things perfectly reasonable and caring people will come to different conclusions.

 

[PaulinVA]

Has the incidence & prevalence of polio increased or decreased in the past ~50-60 years?
How about in the past 3-5?

Non-vaccinators want herd immunity, but no risk themselves. Interesting juxtaposition.

Yep, that seems to be the case. But, the more people who opt out, the less safe the herd is. We have eradicated several childhood diseases. I would hate to see them return.

 

[JSSD]

Which just goes to show that there are valid concerns about vaccines. They can have extremely serious side-effects. So, what needs to happen is a weighing of the pros-cons to figure it all out, and depending on how much weight different people give different things perfectly reasonable and caring people will come to different conclusions.

I can’t disagree at all. I have filled out my share of VAERS reports.
The only problem is you, as an individual (or parent), typically have no way to predict your own risk of an adverse event, and statistically speaking, your risk is miniscule. Even a strong family history or suspected allergy / hypersensitivity may not be perfectly indicative.

The libertarian in me does believe you should do what you need to do, but actions have consequences, and if you make this choice, you should be held accountable. The ID pharmacist in me knows there is absolutely no way to hold someone accountable if they give your kid some communicable disease.

Yep, that seems to be the case. But, the more people who opt out, the less safe the herd is. We have eradicated several childhood diseases. I would hate to see them return.

x2. Right as the sun begins to set on the antibiotic age?

 

[holyrood]

Which just goes to show that there are valid concerns about vaccines. They can have extremely serious side-effects. So, what needs to happen is a weighing of the pros-cons to figure it all out, and depending on how much weight different people give different things perfectly reasonable and caring people will come to different conclusions.

This. Yes, there are concerns. It’s sad to see the name-calling here, and accusations that they ‘want the herd immunity without the risk to themselves,’ of anyone who chooses not to vaccinate.

My children are vaccinated, and I have three who without a doubt are on the autism spectrum. So, yes, it does concern me whether I myself exposed them to that. And I don’t think that I deserve to be called names (conspiracy theorist??? really???) because I have some concerns. Considering I’m the one dealing with the autistic behaviors every day–being repeatedly called into school, being accused by my own family of being a lousy mother, being on my own dealing with this as a result, worrying about their future and whether they’ll ever be capable of taking care of themselves, worried about their emotional well-being because of others’ reactions to their behavior–it’s a real slap in the face to told that if I so much as consider whether maybe reports of the vaccination-autism connection have any truth, that I am somehow selfish and guilty of not caring if other people’s children die. REALLY???

We have become a society that gives medications to people without knowing for sure what the long term effects are (thalidomide? early hormonal birth control?). I do not object at all to people stating why they believe there is no connection, showing studies, etc. But as someone else in this thread pointed out, does it really have to include name-calling and accusations of substandard character of others?

As to showing studies that prove a connection: 1. I’m mostly too busy dealing with children and life in general to dig up study after study, and 2. in a sense, it doesn’t matter anyway since, as in most issues, there are studies that contradict one another, so studies that show the opposite of a person’s position are simply dismissed as flawed, anyway.

I’ve seen it way too often, on too many issues, the posting of contradictory studies, and each side simply saying the other side’s study doesn’t count. I don’t know what the answer is to this, but I would hope at least on a Catholic forum of all places, there could be less name-calling and dismissiveness.

 

[JSSD]

This. Yes, there are concerns. It’s sad to see the name-calling here, and accusations that they ‘want the herd immunity without the risk to themselves,’ of anyone who chooses not to vaccinate.

I don’t think that this is name-calling. If you took offense, please do not for there certainly no personal attack. Having said that, I’m standing behind the statement, as I’ve heard it too many times.

My children are vaccinated, and I have three who without a doubt are on the autism spectrum. So, yes, it does concern me whether I myself exposed them to that. And I don’t think that I deserve to be called names (conspiracy theorist??? really???) because I have some concerns.

I’m afraid I didn’t see name-calling like that.
Your concerns are of course valid, but I don’t personally think you should feel guilt for doing the best you knew at the time.

We have become a society that gives medications to people without knowing for sure what the long term effects are (thalidomide? early hormonal birth control?).

Did we approve thalidomide in the US?
Only semi-recently, and only with extremely strict controls. We didn’t participate in what the drug is typically demonized for.

I might re-phrase this to be “we give medications to people with the absolute best data that we have at the time weighing the risk and benefit.” In general, medicines are bad. Don’t take them if you don’t need them. Having said that, and pertaining to vaccines, communicable diseases are worse. (Or, heart disease is worse than beta blockers, and so on…)

You can easily repurpose the old “pick any two” theorem for pharmaceuticals:

1. Cheap
2. Safe
3. Quickly
   You may have any two of the three, but never all three. Society wants it all, but this is not possible.

As to showing studies that prove a connection: 1. I’m mostly too busy dealing with children and life in general to dig up study after study, and 2. in a sense, it doesn’t matter anyway since, as in most issues, there are studies that contradict one another, so studies that show the opposite of a person’s position are simply dismissed as flawed, anyway.

I’ve seen it way too often, on too many issues, the posting of contradictory studies, and each side simply saying the other side’s study doesn’t count. I don’t know what the answer is to this, but I would hope at least on a Catholic forum of all places, there could be less name-calling and dismissiveness.

I can’t agree with point #2. The studies really don’t contradict one another. There is plenty of bad science out there which the press uses to muddy the water, and quite honestly, which drives costs up since sincere scientists have to disprove it.

 

[savedbygrace71]

Ok, but that’s for a valid medical reason. Not because you’ve bought into some conspiracy theory.

So if the OP’s wife is genuinely, sincerely concerned that something like this would happen to her child, how is that a conspiracy theory? It only counts AFTER your child is damaged? That’s unfair. Why can’t she have an opinion on what’s safe and what isn’t?

Another of our choices was to not vax our younger against rotavirus. All the above stats on the virus are completely true- it’s a rough virus and one you don’t want your baby to get. However, between myself and my ped, we agreed that my baby didn’t need it. Why? He was exclusively breast fed = stronger immunity. He was completely home with me and no day care setting, his older brother was not in preschool = not in a high risk transmission group. So, we opted not to vax him. It was our choice to not do it since it is a recommended vaccine rather than a required one. That doesn’t make me a conspiracy theorist, it makes me a well informed, thoughtful mother.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Ok, but that’s for a valid medical reason. Not because you’ve bought into some conspiracy theory.

Right. My point is that there can be legitimate reasons why a child should not receive a vaccination.

 

[bitterhope]

Most people don’t have any idea if their child will react until it happens. All of mine are vaccinated with the exception of two that are never getting another MMR. They have the rest of their shots though. My youngest has been slowed down on her vaccines but still has them all. If I had it to do over again I think I would have slowed them all down but still gotten the shots. But if another parent chose not to vaccinate I fully support their right to do that.

 

[NFPWife]

Most people don’t have any idea if their child will react until it happens. All of mine are vaccinated with the exception of two that are never getting another MMR. They have the rest of their shots though. My youngest has been slowed down on her vaccines but still has them all. If I had it to do over again I think I would have slowed them all down but still gotten the shots. But if another parent chose not to vaccinate I fully support their right to do that.

And that, IMO, is the compromise. Assessing each vaccine on a case by case basis, as many here have done, and slowing down the schedule. If the OP is truly interested in compromise, he’ll sit down with his wife and the pediatrician and arrive at an informed decision.

 

[Xantippe]

Statistically speaking, but I don’t feel comfortable saying that as an absolute, especially in regards to pertussis as the most recent vaccine-preventable outbreak example, or influenza as the old standby. $0.02

Yes. If enough people skipped vaccinations, people with larger families could expect to bury at least one under 5 child and perhaps more, just as used to happen in pre-vaccine days.

I don’t think that would happen for any length of time, though, as people would notice “hey, a lot of kids are dying or being hospitalized for preventable illnesses!” and start vaccinating like crazy, but there would be some families that paid the ultimate price.

 

[Xantippe]

Read the Wikipedia article on Andrew Wakefield or any reputable article from a major media source. The article on an autism/vaccine connection was out and out fraud. It’s not a question of he-said-she-said. You don’t have to say, “How can we really know? There are just so many different studies! I don’t have the time!” because the autism-vaccine work was a fraud.

This. Yes, there are concerns. It’s sad to see the name-calling here, and accusations that they ‘want the herd immunity without the risk to themselves,’ of anyone who chooses not to vaccinate.

My children are vaccinated, and I have three who without a doubt are on the autism spectrum. So, yes, it does concern me whether I myself exposed them to that. And I don’t think that I deserve to be called names (conspiracy theorist??? really???) because I have some concerns. Considering I’m the one dealing with the autistic behaviors every day–being repeatedly called into school, being accused by my own family of being a lousy mother, being on my own dealing with this as a result, worrying about their future and whether they’ll ever be capable of taking care of themselves, worried about their emotional well-being because of others’ reactions to their behavior–it’s a real slap in the face to told that if I so much as consider whether maybe reports of the vaccination-autism connection have any truth, that I am somehow selfish and guilty of not caring if other people’s children die. REALLY???

We have become a society that gives medications to people without knowing for sure what the long term effects are (thalidomide? early hormonal birth control?). I do not object at all to people stating why they believe there is no connection, showing studies, etc. But as someone else in this thread pointed out, does it really have to include name-calling and accusations of substandard character of others?

As to showing studies that prove a connection: 1. I’m mostly too busy dealing with children and life in general to dig up study after study, and 2. in a sense, it doesn’t matter anyway since, as in most issues, there are studies that contradict one another, so studies that show the opposite of a person’s position are simply dismissed as flawed, anyway.

I’ve seen it way too often, on too many issues, the posting of contradictory studies, and each side simply saying the other side’s study doesn’t count. I don’t know what the answer is to this, but I would hope at least on a Catholic forum of all places, there could be less name-calling and dismissiveness.